Rogue - let's beat it

[Troubler]

Troubler - where you at?  Still Rogue-ing?

Of course, I'm not giving up that easily.  I just took a break for a while. Sorry I missed your last response there.
After some considerations, I think that identification is the least of my problems with version 5. They really ream you with that IS_RUN bug.
Speaking of that I was thinking about switching to version 4, for functional wands, but I believe it may have the same IS_RUN bug as version 5.
From quickly checking the code it seemed that way. But, I'm not entirely sure. I found the +4 held bonus at least.
That would explain the lack of success in it. Either that or just a lack of interest. It seems like the neglected middle child no one talks about.

Last time I think I was trying a "one game a day" routine to maximize my focus when playing.
It was somewhat successful in raising my average score, but even that didn't help my xorn problem much.
I might keep up doing it this way, though it might even work against me since victory almost entirely relies on certain drops. More repetitions might be preferable.
Earlier on I tried a very brazen "power-dive" strategy, which was based around increasing repetitions since you just can't progress without certain items past a point.
Since the chance of finding those items is entirely random regardless, and active exploration might work more against you in food consumption and danger than help.
That is to say, if I find a +3 splint mail, it is almost completely by random chance. Meanwhile looking for things like this just gets me a few potions, rust monsters, and trolls.
If someone knew some statistics they might be able to figure out the risk in exploring vs diving. Though I might just be seeing patterns out of nothing.

I couldn't imagine using identify on weapons or armor, though with the ID restrictions maybe. Getting a +8 plate mail sounds like a dream come true. That's some crazy luck, but I don't know what the version is like.
V5 I think has an advantage as far as strength goes. Generally I just try to keep it above 15 for the +1. To get +2 here is very lucky with 4-5 potions needed. But I don't know how drops vary.

[Squeeealer]

What is the IS_RUN bug and the held bug?

[Troubler]

Ha, I thought you heard about it already. I also mistyped, it's the ISRUN bug. This thing:

More bugs...

This one is really funny and quite unfortunate, present in v5, v4, and also Epyx 1.48:

    /*
     * If the creature being attacked is not running (alseep or held)
     * then the attacker gets a plus four bonus to hit.
     */
    if (!on(*thdef, ISRUN))
   hplus += 4;

File "fight.c", function roll_em(). This is supposed to give the player bonus chance to hit sleeping (held) monsters, and monsters to get this bonus when player is faint or frozen/paralyzed. The funny part is that it actually gives monsters this bonus all the time, while player never gets it. Ha-ha! As if the game was not intended to be hard enough these bugs make it still much harder and super-very unfair. And that Squeeealer managed to beat it with all these bugs and against all odds, I have to say again it's some kind of miracle.

Anyhow, there are two problems. First, ISRUN flag for the player is not handled properly somewhere else in the code so effectively the player is always "fainted" and thus the monsters always get this to-hit bonus. Second, in function fight(), there is a call to function runto(), which wakes up monsters, before the dice roll, so by the time it is decided whether to give the player to-hit bonus for sleeping/held monsters they are already up and running and thus the player never gets it.

In versions 4 and 5 you are effectively playing with a base -4 AC because of it.

[Squeeealer]

Oh yeah, I remember!  It made me very proud when I heard that LOL

I have been in a MAJOR two handed sword drought recently. 

[Squeeealer]

Two handed sword drought over, but it was after I had already sunk two enchants into a long sword. Ran into a troll and hit him several times... before he killed me.

I just had a first - I found FOUR scroll of scare monster and even had them identified early as a hobgoblin refused to step on it.  The super sad part is that I had to use them all before the trolls.  I got absolutely zero help anywhere else - no weapon upgrade, no wands, and by xp level 6 I was at 31 HP.  Not good.  I did find a bunch of food, so I was able to hang out a few times and level up, but when I was going to do that on 12, I fell down a trapdoor before I could level up on the scroll of scare I'd already dropped.  As soon as I ran into my first phantom it was over.

[Troubler]

Well I am back at it with Rogue.
I learned something new today, something very important.
Apparently there are TWO commands for zapping wands, with and without direction.
Pressing 'z' just zaps the wand in some random direction it seems.
But, if you press 'p' instead, it lets you shoot in the direction you choose.
I don't know who's dumb idea this was. Seems like some kind of mean trick.
I still messed it up a few times after I discovered this. It's really frustrating.
Maybe a setup for some new content that never made it into the game?

And I've been doing it wrong this whole time, thinking the game was broken!
This should make things a lot more straight-forward. This is a huge find for me.

I know the deal with the scare monster scrolls working as soon as they are spawned, but I always forget to identify them with monsters first.

[Squeeealer]

I never try to mess around with identifying scare monster like that either.  This time it just happened to be positioned in front of a doorway.

What version of Rogue are you playing and where?  For me, zapping works as it should.  It's just like throwing arrows only with Z.

I'm playing version 5.5 on rlgallery.org

What I like about that version is I can play super fast because I can hold down control to move around lighting quick.

[Troubler]

I use rlgallery too, because I don't have to pull out a pen and paper when I identify things. Also the run button doesn't get me killed.

I liked how it keeps track of scores and averages but that's been broken on my account for a while now.

Version 3 though, so the developers might have changed it later on. 'p' works like arrows but 'z' just shoots randomly.

[Squeeealer]

So I'm just now understanding this... if you get an early unenchanted long sword or even two-handed sword, is it still superior to wield your starting enchanted mace due to the increased hit% until you get a couple xp levels under you?

Today I found an early long sword and could hit anything.  Died.  Next run, same thing.  Next run, early two-handed sword.  I was able to survive.  But this time I had the WORST xp lvl gains I've ever had.  I have to admit, the game is more generous usually than stingy, but not in this particular game.  I had gains of one HP FOUR TIMES.  At xp lvl 7 I was still at something like 26 or 28 HP.  Unreal.

What a waste of a two-handed sword. I had even identified a +2 ring of dexterity.

[Troubler]

So I'm just now understanding this... if you get an early unenchanted long sword or even two-handed sword, is it still superior to wield your starting enchanted mace due to the increased hit% until you get a couple xp levels under you?

Today I found an early long sword and could hit anything.  Died.  Next run, same thing.  Next run, early two-handed sword.  I was able to survive.  But this time I had the WORST xp lvl gains I've ever had.  I have to admit, the game is more generous usually than stingy, but not in this particular game.  I had gains of one HP FOUR TIMES.  At xp lvl 7 I was still at something like 26 or 28 HP.  Unreal.

What a waste of a two-handed sword. I had even identified a +2 ring of dexterity.

I usually have to contemplate sticking with my mace if I find a long-sword, because of the %5 difference in hit vs 3 points of (potential) damage.
imo the two-handed sword is always worth it but the long sword is somewhat suspect. I've been screwed by the hit rate of both in the past though.
Or that might just be seeing patterns where there are none. Because it is such a small difference at the end of the day.

A longsword is not really that much better than your initial mace then. It would be if the mace were not enchanted to begin with.
And if you end up IDing a scroll of enchant weapon on your initial mace first, which is somewhat likely, it becomes even more questionable.
If the mace ends up +2 in hit, I might just forget about the longsword to begin with because every missed swing is fundamentally just 0 damage.

Though often worrying about that small difference seems like an exercise in futility because you can't really even tackle the endgame without a two-handed sword.

[sgibber2018]

I've had a good time with Rogue Clone IV running in DosBox. The farthest I've ever got is level 17 where I was slain by a level-stealing Wraith! I really like the original Rogue and as much as I enjoy its successors there's something really special about the original. Keep at it man!

[Squeeealer]

What is Rogue Clone IV and what version of Rogue does it most closely match?

Hey elwin - our scores aren't posting since like October.  I'll try to reach out to ya.

[Squeeealer]

I've had a good run recently where I'm getting the two handed sword.

I had one run where I found three wands of polymorph.  That almost by itself was enough to get me one floor away from the amulet.

Then I had a run where I had the two handed sword and 20 strength.  This was not nearly enough for me to go deep because I did not have anything really to get me out of trouble.  It also did not help that my sword was +0, +1, so when I had some bad rolls there was no way to get out of it.  No heals, no poly, no slow, no teleport, no nothing.

I just had a wild run where I used the starting mace nearly the whole time.  Finally I found a couple enchantments making my long sword +1, +1. I had three potions of strength saved up, but ended up finding not a single restore strength potion the entire run.  Despite all this, I died on Floor 22 with just three strength.  Ugh.

[Phonatacid]

So I've been dabbling with Rogue again lately. I come from the IBM versions so this Rogue V5 stuff is really different (different identify scrolls? dang). What's the best way to heal? Sit in a corner then hit the number 8 before period? Will monsters still surprise attack me?

And speaking of which, does anyone know what the differences between the Jon Lane version and the Epyx version are? Is it mainly cosmetic stuff like level titles instead of numbers?

As for the differences between the IBM copies and V5, it looks like V5 doesn't have vorpal scrolls but it does have protect armor and that annoying hallucination potion. Also I do know Epyx has the slime creature that divides which is more interesting than another snake. It's crazy how many different versions exist for this game with all of their little nuances.

[Phonatacid]

Hmm Rogue V5 is pretty interesting with the different ID scrolls. In a way it's a buff I feel like because since there are a lot more ID scrolls around you then you aren't forced to save the precious few in the IBM version just for rings/wands. Like I was identifying potions and even weapons/armor throughout my last game because what else am I supposed to do with an identify potion scroll besides identifying potions?

So are you always supposed to run away from trolls? I could kill them with my +1, +1 two handed sword but not two in a row which is what screwed my last game from being able to get to floor 18. If trolls are that tough how are you even supposed to manage griffins/medusas/dragons/etc? I'm guessing from floor 16 you need to just start running to the stairs ASAP? This was the case in Torneko no Daibouken, the first Mystery Dungeon game in Japan that is based heavily on Rogue. Also do medusa's confuse by melee attack or is it a beam?

On the topic of beams, are the wands of fire/lightning/cold/magic missile worth using? Do they reflect like Ice Monster ice beams in the Epyx version?