Rogue - let's beat it

[Squeeealer]

How can you see my run?  You're right, I had three two-handed swords in like the first ten floors.

I see it now.  TTYREC.  Which player do you recommend for the computer illiterate?

[Pertinax]

Well, we've got a killed w/ Amulet on the leaderboard now. 

Awesome job! Congrats! Now we need to get that sucker to the surface.

[Squeeealer]

Quaggas coming back!   

http://secondnexus.com/ecology-and-sustainability/extinct-zebra-back-from-dead/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_c2d9a8d2ec5e479c8e9d2b9b2a1940c0

[Pertinax]

Quaggas coming back!   

http://secondnexus.com/ecology-and-sustainability/extinct-zebra-back-from-dead/?utm_content=inf_10_1164_2&tse_id=INF_c2d9a8d2ec5e479c8e9d2b9b2a1940c0

Wow. That's crazy. Let's hope that they don't bring trolls back next.

[forumaccount]

Interested in opening a time capsule?

Here are Brian Walker's, the creator and "B" part of of Brogue, thoughts on Rogue circa 2009.

Lessons from the original Rogue
(found on http://brogue.wikia.com/wiki/History_of_Brogue)

This may help the OP with attempts to beat Rogue, or at least give you interesting context for the design decisions that made Brogue so very Rogue-like.

I'd really really like to play an updated UI/controls version of Rogue, basically the Brogue engine running Rogue would be perfect.

This is a really cool idea. Especially if the autoexplore button is part of the plan. Was anyone able to pitch this idea to Lord Brogueish?

[Squeeealer]

Well, I got the new high score, but a very disappointing run after I realized what I had in inventory.

At one point I had a staff of slow monster with six charges, three staves of polymorph (although most of them with few charges), and a scroll of monster confusion.  When it's going that good, you have hopes of the Amulet.

Pros
Pretty high STR - ended with 20 I think
Very rarely lost any STR and had many potions of restore strength
Food was plentiful
Seemed to get lots of drops from enemies
Staff of Light
Cleared about three treasure rooms
Found waterproofing early + 3 armor enchantments

Cons
Never improved from mace, but did find 2-3 enchantments
Average HP increase a measly 4.2.  Was at 59 HP despite Level 12.
No potions of raise level
No rings other than a ring of dexterity +2
After realizing a scroll in a treasure room was a scroll of scare monster, I stupidly read it.  WTF
Ran out of arrows really early and only found more projectiles late
Got dinged once by a Wraith and it made a noticeable difference

On Floors 24 and 25 started going through my charges like crazy.  On Floor 25 by the time I'd defeat one enemy another had spawned and I was getting no breaks.  Medusae, Black Unicorns, Griffins, and even a Dragon.  Never did find the stairs.

I swear there is some underlying attribute(s).  Despite my poor weaponry and only slightly above normal STR at the time, I was beating Trolls quite easily. Things really seemed to change for the worse when that Wraith knocked me down a notch, even though you essentially gain it right back.

[elwin]

I agree, a great and disappointing run.  The game looked winnable, up until that time you leveled up and only got 1 HP increase.  That changed it from manageably low to disastrous.  On level 14 and 15, you were killing everything, but with the Wraith and the Vampire, the balance shifted faster than usual.

I am beginning to think max HP is a much bigger factor than weapons or armor.

Toward the end, you started using up charges rapidly.  I don't have much experience with Griffins, but did you need to zap all of them?  One more charge might have gotten you a little farther.

[Squeeealer]

Perhaps I am overreacting, but in my little experience, almost all enemies that late (in the 20s) require some sort of special attention (wands, scrolls, etc.). Griffins are super dangerous in the same way as are Jabberwocks and Black Unicorns because of their agility and attack multipliers (if I understand correctly). Medusae are certainly beatable in hand-to-hand combat, but mostly when you are not confused.

elwin - I was playing at the same time as you today. Did you see me get snookered by a room full of nasties about Floor 22? Black Unicorns, a Medusa, and a Dragon. On my final move I used a potion of monster detection and sure enuff, there was a treasure room adjacent to where I was. Trapped. I burned three scrolls of monster hold, to no avail. Totally blocked by an avalanche of these high-level enemies.

[elwin]

I missed your demise (I was busy getting killed by Quaggas, despite my two-handed sword.)  Looked at the ttyrec... that was painful.  There's not much you can do if you find a treasure room before finding the stairs.

About deep-level monsters, I did some math.  Here is a table of their average damage per hit:

Griffin: 17
Jabberwock: 18
Medusa: 21
Troll: 16
Unicorn: 20

(This assumes you have no armor.  Any armor will give some protection from Trolls, but you need +3 plate mail to have any effect on Jabberwocks.)

The important difference is that Griffins and Jabberwocks have over twice as many hit points as Trolls.  Still, 7 hits with a two-handed sword should demolish the average Jabberwock, and 6 should suffice for the average Griffin.

Getting in that many hits before getting killed requires you to start with over 100 hit points.  So a direct attack is likely to fail.

[Squeeealer]

STUFF I'M JUST NOW LEARNING OR CURRENT STRATEGIES FOR ITEM USE

I am just now understanding the actions of putting on/taking off armor and rings. Armor seems to take forever - like two turns to take off and two turns to put on or something. Ah, wait. I bet it's just one turn, but it seems like two when you're facing off with a faster Aquator.

Rings, on the other hand (no pun intended), seem to take zero turns. Previously, I had been pretty much ignoring my rings of sustain strength or sustain armor unless I had truckloads of food. I didn't realize that once I came face to face with a Rattlesnake or Aquator I could simply slip on the ring with no turn taken, finish the fight, then take the ring right back off.

Item use:

Wands and Staves

Lightning/Fire/Cold/Missile - I'm not sure I have ever had a good experience with any of these. They seem to miss, you can't use them in close quarters, and I just plain have better luck with a bow and arrow or other projectiles. Maybe I'm doing something wrong like not using them at the right distance or vs the right enemies?

Haste Monster and Teleport To - almost no idea unless these are just supposed to be evil tricks on us. Maybe if you have two enemies chasing you, one is an Aquator and you have waterproofing, so you want the Aquator right next to you acting as a virtual roadblock to the other enemies coming from that direction.

Invisibility - this must just be another evil trick on us unless using it on a Medusa prevents them from confusing us. Almost all strategies I've seen for Medusae are nearly worthless unless you are in a lit room.

Drain Life - I will actually use this sometimes now. If I can recover HP quickly due to ring of regeneration or simply a higher experience level, I'll use this to kill Leprechauns or Nymphs when I'm low on projectiles or they are in close quarters. When else is a good time to use this?

Cancellation - I've also been using this on Leprechauns and Nymphs in specific situations. I would really prefer to use vs Wraiths since one bad battle against them can ruin a run. Not really interested in using vs Rattlesnakes or Aquators, and have never had a good opportunity to use vs Medusae.

Polymorph - everyone know when to use this, but sometimes it's fun to use really early in a large lit room to see if you get an enemy you can beat with arrows at a distance.

Rings

Rings of Add STR, Dexterity, Protection, Increase Damage - I almost never use these. I don't want the drain on my appetite. Maybe I use one when I have a Ring of Slow Digestion to go with it. I always tell myself I'll slip one on when I run into a tough enemy, but then I get scared it will count as a turn.

Searching - I never use this. Do you guys?

Stealth - only started using this after that guy talked about it earlier in this thread. I usually don't have a bunch of extra food, so I am constantly taking it on an off as I cross room thresholds and make sure rooms are clear.

Regeneration - again, my concern is my appetite. So I just put it on when I need to recover or am about to have a tough fight. Otherwise, not wearing it.

Scrolls

Monster Confusion - works best in hallways. Best to just go ahead and use at the beginning of battle instead of waiting to see how the first few attacks go. What I don't understand is how it's decided when an enemy recovers from being confused. Sometimes it seems to happen pretty quickly and sometimes they seem to stay confused for quite a while. Or maybe it's 18 turns just when we get confused?

Remove Curse - I love having an identified one of these. Then I can feel free to test out all my equipment - especially rings since you've got two hands to use!

Aggravate Monsters - I've never really found a good use for this. I understand like when you've dropped a Scroll of Scare Monster or you are in a large lit room and want to beat up enemies from a distance, but winding or blocked hallways often prevent it from working out the way I want it to.

Create Monster - I usually use this when I've cleared a floor and am on the stairs. If it's something I don't like I just go downstairs. If it's something I do like I get experience or maybe even a Leprechaun. By far the most awesome use of this was when a super tough enemy was around a corner from me, in desperation I used a scroll hoping it would teleport me, and instead it created a stationary monster blocking the one I was scared of an letting me get away.

Potions

Magic/Monster Detection - I try to use this about two rooms into a new floor.  That way a monster might have already spawned and I can see where and who all the enemies are. I especially love when it turns out there is a treasure room on that floor so I can prepare or avoid accordingly.

Blindness - recently I quaffed one of these and since I had another I went ahead and quaffed it to get it out of inventory. I think it made me blind for twice as long - not what I was expecting.

Confusion - can you throw this at an enemy to confuse them in V5?

---

Projectiles - what does it mean when a projectile has a negative value to it? Less damage? Less likely to hit?

Any strategies you guys like to use in item usage?

[Squeeealer]

Got another spot on the leaderboard, but it was so cheap.  I just faced a lot of Leprechauns. I identified a wand of cancellation early and burned all the charges on Leprechauns.  It was fitting that I was killed running from a Wraith as I had no charges left to use on him.

Also for the first time had to commit suicide.  Found a floor with no stairs.

[elwin]

I never knew putting on and taking off rings doesn't use a turn.  I have used the ring of searching a few times.

I agree that some items are almost useless.  I think their purpose is to make it risky to use unidentified items in tense situations.

Throwing potions at monsters has no effect in V5.  That feature was added to PC Rogue.

One strategy I use is avoiding reading unidentified scrolls if they might be scrolls of identify for a category I don't have.  I hate wasting them that way.

Also for the first time had to commit suicide.  Found a floor with no stairs.

That's a bug that needs investigation.  Which game was it?

[Squeeealer]

I never knew putting on and taking off rings doesn't use a turn.  I have used the ring of searching a few times.

I agree that some items are almost useless.  I think their purpose is to make it risky to use unidentified items in tense situations.

Throwing potions at monsters has no effect in V5.  That feature was added to PC Rogue.

One strategy I use is avoiding reading unidentified scrolls if they might be scrolls of identify for a category I don't have.  I hate wasting them that way.

Also for the first time had to commit suicide.  Found a floor with no stairs.

That's a bug that needs investigation.  Which game was it?

Looks like the site is down right now, but I believe it was a run that ended on Floor 7.  Just happened within the past three days, I'd say.

[elwin]

Sorry about the Web app downtime.  I'm going to have to fix it again, properly this time.

I found your ttyrec.  There was a room in the lower right corner, six spaces wide and five spaces high.  You kept going down the right-hand side, across the bottom, up the left-hand wall, and back across the top.  Going across the top and bottom of a room five spaces high will miss the middle row.  When you went along the right wall, you saw the right two spaces of that row.  Sometimes you walked down the column next to the wall, and saw the right three spaces.  When you went up the left wall, you saw the left two spaces.  But you never explored the third space from the left in that middle row.  You walked around it four or five times, but you never saw it.  Without a savefile, I can't be certain, but I suspect that's where the stairs were.

[Squeeealer]

Sorry about the Web app downtime.  I'm going to have to fix it again, properly this time.

I found your ttyrec.  There was a room in the lower right corner, six spaces wide and five spaces high.  You kept going down the right-hand side, across the bottom, up the left-hand wall, and back across the top.  Going across the top and bottom of a room five spaces high will miss the middle row.  When you went along the right wall, you saw the right two spaces of that row.  Sometimes you walked down the column next to the wall, and saw the right three spaces.  When you went up the left wall, you saw the left two spaces.  But you never explored the third space from the left in that middle row.  You walked around it four or five times, but you never saw it.  Without a savefile, I can't be certain, but I suspect that's where the stairs were.

That seems far more likely than my explanation.