Author Topic: Rogue - let's beat it  (Read 155124 times)

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2015, 02:43:45 PM »
My last run last night I got a two handed sword early with THREE enchantments!  Woohoo, right?  The problem was that Rattlesnakes bit the hell out of me and I was down to 5 STR in no time.  Almost impossible to get out of that without a potion of restore STR.

I am noticing that one common factor in my successful runs is my ability to maintain and increase STR for the damage bonuses or whatever it is STR does.  I assume that's the only way I was able to get 24 with an unenchanted mace while still beating some tough enemies (I think I was at 20 STR).  Because of this, I've started quaffing all potions on the first three floors as soon as I get them.  Getting blinded isn't that big a deal that early (unless you run into an Ice Monster) and hallucinating is even less of a problem.  The sooner I identify my gain STR potion then the sooner I can quaff them when I find them and boost my STR to get those bonuses.

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2015, 04:32:59 AM »
I still just do not understand how this game functions and it affects my ability to play skillfully.  I identified two potions of increase skill, or whatever the hell they are called.  I waited until I leveled up to 8 and then quaffed them both putting me at level 10 (and just 55 HP).  This seemed to have absolutely zero impact on my ability to hit enemies.  I missed time and again and again. It really cost me against Trolls.  I had a two handed sword, but no enchantments.  I really got unlucky in the way I died - found a Black Unicorn, backed away and right into another Black Unicorn.  They were both awarded a turn and I was dead despite charges left in my wand of polymorph and my wand of slow monster.

What affects your ability to hit your enemy other than your enemy's attributes?  Can you increase your ability to hit your enemy?  Does it occur at level ups or with equipment or what?  What exactly does STR affect?

I also did not find a potion of restore strength the entire run and I believe that it cost me in the end.  I had two potions of increase STR just waiting to be quaffed when I died.

Pertinax

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2015, 07:39:13 AM »
What affects your ability to hit your enemy other than your enemy's attributes?  Can you increase your ability to hit your enemy?  Does it occur at level ups or with equipment or what?  What exactly does STR affect?

Your chance to hit is based on your level, the monster's armor class, your strength, the "to hit" bonus on your weapon, any rings of dexterity that you might be wearing, and whether the creature is asleep or held (you get a +20% bonus in this case).

The Rogue's Vade-Mecum (Latin for "walk with me", i.e., a walkthrough) says "When you attack a monster, your chance of hitting it is 5%, plus 5% times your experience level, plus 5% times the monster's armor class." So your two raise level potions ought to have added 10% to your hit chance. According to the vade-mecum, a troll's AC is 4, so, based on what you said (lvl 8 before drinking the potions, lvl 10 afterwards, no weapon enchantments), you should have gone from a 65% chance to hit the troll to a 75% chance after quaffing the potions. However, your hit chance might have been significantly decreased if your strength was low.

After having written the first draft of this post, I wasn't sure about the exact effect that strength had, so I took a look at the 5.4.4 source code and found the following in fight.c:

Code: [Select]
/*
 * adjustments to hit probabilities due to strength
 */
static int str_plus[] = {
    -7, -6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1,
    1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3,
};

/*
 * adjustments to damage done due to strength
 */
static int add_dam[] = {
    -7, -6, -5, -4, -3, -2, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 2, 3,
    3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6
};

If you don't read C, these are arrays of hit and dmg bonuses that are indexed using the character's strength (ranging from 0 to 31). Meaning that the first number in each list corresponds to str 0, the second number to str 1, and so on. As you can see, you take hit and dmg penalties if your str is 6 or below, and you get a hit bonus if it's 17 or higher and a dmg bonus if it's 16 or higher. The slightly good news is that there's code in another file that enforces a lower bound of strength 3, so the worst penalties from those arrays seem not to actually be in play.

Looking at the code that computes hits, it generates a virtual 20-sided die (d20) roll, modifies it based on the various factors that I mentioned above, and then determines if it was a hit. Since 1/20 = 5%, this is where the percentages in the formula in the vade-mecum come from. Each point of weapon and strength bonus/penalty adjusts the d20 roll, which means that it actually corresponds to a 5% increase or decrease in hit chance. So, e.g., the -4 for str 3 is actually -20%, a significant penalty. On the positive side, I think that your earlier post where you said

I am noticing that one common factor in my successful runs is my ability to maintain and increase STR for the damage bonuses or whatever it is STR does.

was right on the money. It also means that weapon enchantments are a pretty big deal.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 08:02:18 AM by Pertinax »

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2015, 08:18:20 PM »
I was just frustrated because when I find or do certain things I have expectations that things should go a certain way.  But it's stupid of me to have those expectations without completely understanding.  I'm not very smart, so I just like things easy.

Thank you for your post, Pertinax.  It helps me to understand the game better and appropriately adjust my pie in the sky expectations.

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2015, 07:45:39 PM »
Sorry Squeeealer, there's no Amulet on floor 24.  You have to keep going another two levels.  That's still an impressive run.

@Legend: I didn't know about the color version of 3.6.2.  I'll have to take a closer look.  I don't know of any similar mode added to 5.4.  Version 5.4 has some improvements to the UI, and it's been rebalanced, with a few added items and renamed monsters.  I think it ended up being slightly harder.

@elwin - site's down

Pertinax

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2015, 10:38:02 PM »
@elwin - site's down

Looks like just the web service, as I'm able to login via ssh without a problem.

Does your hosting service allow you to configure the server so that the web service will start automatically on boot?

If so, here are some starting points for Linux and OS X.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 10:43:16 PM by Pertinax »

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #96 on: December 16, 2015, 12:28:36 AM »
The player is up again.  Sorry about that.  Writing a systemd unit file is now several steps higher up my to-do list.

@Squeeealer: I think you're expecting things like swords and high strength to help more than they really do.  The luck of what kind of monsters you run into still has more effect on your fate.

EDIT: Apologies for the latest crash.  The server found a new and creative way to break, by filling up the entire disk with 7 GB of log files.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 12:09:03 AM by elwin »
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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2015, 02:30:16 PM »
I was playing a game yesterday when the player went down again.  The player is back up, but when I try to resume my game it says, sorry, your game is out of date.  Then it does not let me play V5 at all.  I even played a game of V3 to see if that would reset V5, but that did not work.  Any ideas?  I did try it on more than one computer.

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #98 on: December 18, 2015, 05:33:58 PM »
Since the disk was full, rogue wasn't able to put any data in your savefile.  I've fixed it so you should be able to start a new game, but the one you were playing can't be recovered.  If the game had previously been saved and restored, there might have been a copy in backup, but I've looked and there isn't.

Sorry about that.  I should have known this could happen.
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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2015, 11:40:21 AM »
Thank you!

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2016, 01:58:55 PM »
Another "so close" run last night.

Started off on the right foot with a treasure room on the first floor packed wall-to-wall with enemies. Somehow I beat them all including surviving being frozen once by an Ice Monster.

Once again, I never improved from my mace.  Eventually, I did find about four enhancements. As far as armor, I never found waterproofing nor Leather Armor. At one point I had Chain Armor, but for the majority of the run I had a 1 for armor. I found one ring the entire run and it was a ring of slow digestion. But considering my stock of food I didn't really need it.

I had good luck keeping my STR high. I found two potions of gain strength early. Later in the run I was able to restore strength and then add one more point of STR. I only found two wands/staves, but I was able to identify them immediately. The first was a wand of teleport away, and that came in very handy. Late in the run I found a wand of polymorph with mixed results. At one point I used it on a Griffin, and it turned into another Griffin. Then it turned into a Black Unicorn. Later on I turned a Medusa into a Jabberwock, but since the Jabberwock was stationary I was able to chuck stuff at him to lower his health. My two potions of haste self and my three scrolls of monster confusion each helped me to defeat a difficult enemy and I never had to escape two enemies at once.

The run took a turn for the worse when, despite 19 STR and an enhanced mace, a Wraith knocked me down from exp lvl 10 to 8. But soon thereafter I used my one scroll of scare monster and kept going back to it as I explored the floor for easy victories against tough enemies.  It wasn't long before I was at exp lvl 11. In all, I defeated quite a few tough enemies including about five Medusas and Griffins and my first Jabberwock. I think I've beaten every enemy now except a Dragon, and I think I've only seen one of those (outside of polymorph).

My gold count should have been way better. The Leprechauns I defeated dropped tiny amounts, but the two that robbed me took about 600-700. But that level 25 to a Jabberwock looks good on the leaderboard.


Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2016, 09:37:32 PM »
Well, we've got a killed w/ Amulet on the leaderboard now.  8)   I didn't realize the Amulet was a comma - I almost overlooked it.

I made a huge mistake around 17-18.  I did not test out my unidentified wands on Aquators and died with two unidentified in my inventory. I'd already identified a wand of slow monster and later figured out I had a wand of teleport away.  But if one of those was a polymorph, I might have had a chance.

I lived through my other big mistake.  I got confused by a Medusa, so I decided I should drop my scroll of scare monster, rest until no longer confused, then beat her up. I dropped the scroll, then go so excited to hit her that I moved before resting OOPS.  In desperation, I read my unidentified scrolls because I was certain one of them was a scroll of teleportation. First one was no help.  Second one was scroll of monster hold.  Bingo.

Also, beat my first two Dragons. One popped up right next to me and I was able to use scroll of slow monster. He did try to roast me once, but it whizzed on by.  The second one I found in a long room and I had a ring of stealth on.  I was just able to shoot arrows at him until he was dead.  Both kills resulted in an experience level boost.

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2016, 10:50:54 PM »

jim

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2016, 06:15:38 PM »

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #104 on: January 19, 2016, 01:39:43 AM »
Well done!  First death with Amulet in the V5 dungeon.  You did it with surprisingly low max HP: 73 would be normal for that level.  And you recovered well from those mistakes.

I was thinking of playing some more this week, but you've used up all the two-handed swords, getting three in one game.
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