Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Websites => Temple of the Roguelike => Topic started by: akeley on March 22, 2019, 09:11:28 AM
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Let's be frank: this place is dying.
Now, forums across the internet have suffered from people moving to other models - Twitter, reddit, Discord etc, but I think there's more to that in the case of TOTR.
One reason would definitely be zero-moderation approach which allowed the resident, ahem, "troll", to almost single-handedly scare away just about any new member/dev and turn most of discussion (or even news) here into a toxic dumpster fire.
The lack of any control is also allowing the bots to flood this board with spam, one of which I see today is 3 days old. While some of them are amusingly intelligent, it's a sure sign of a forum dying.
The Announcements thread, which before was a kind of rock-solid resource and one of the better reasons to still check on this place has also suffered lately. I totally understand that getter77, who has been tirelessly maintaining it (and TOTR in general) for years may have other obligations or is just burned out. Perhaps he could get some support though?
Personally, my forum dwelling days are long-over, so I don't really have a horse in this race, but I still do have a great sentiment for the Temple - this is where my RL adventure has started after all. And I do believe forums still have a place in the internet life, especially in niche communities such as ours. Sure, most of the RL-chat is now on reddit, which is a decent resource but it has its flaws, main being its flash-in-the-pan nature.
Juts wanted to speak my mind about this for some time, not holding my breath for any changes or reaction (apart from the predictable one :) It would be nice to see this place revitalised but perhaps its time has come to an end, sadly similarly to that of the nearly-extinct species which is a Classic Roguelike.
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One reason would definitely be zero-moderation approach which allowed the resident, ahem, "troll", to almost single-handedly scare away just about any new member/dev and turn most of discussion
This is just forum discussion. If you get scared away, you should get a pair. If you are a guy, of course. I get bullied with nonsense because I'm an actual roguelike developer and have strong opinions about roguelike games and the genre. And yes whoever put that "troll" under my user name will be really sorry later when I start to release roguelike games. Besides I think younger people just like Reddit, because it's trendy.
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To be clear, I don't think many users have ran away scared because you're so edgy, krice. It's rather that people come here to discuss Roguelikes, not listen to some random dude's whining and mostly off topic rants (flame wars about genre definitions and languages get old fast).
Lacking moderation may well have something to do with the declining activity the last years, as well as a general tendency towards newer forums. Not sure what, if anything, can be done to turn the trend around. I'm also becoming more and more of a sporadic forum user. When I do, I usually turn to reddit's rldev board, which is okay, but maybe I'm just old fashioned for missing the temple's glory days.
As always,
Minotauros
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but maybe I'm just old fashioned for missing the temple's glory days.
Back in old days developers were actually talking about roguelikes and respecting their origin and style also in the way they were released (free and often open source). Now developers are trying to monetize that legacy with minimum amount of effort using same old ideas from retro games, but light weight versions, because it's faster and easier to produce. If you go against that you are just a sad old dude who is whining about everything. You know, you need to be in that bunch and support that thing, because there can't be any critical voice which could scare paying customers away.
I think a "good" but also a bit different example is ADOM. It was abandoned for years (I think almost ten years?) but then Biskup realized he can make money with it, because crowd funding thing happened. All he cares about is money. But I think that's understandable, because he is german after all. But it underlines why the situation is now what it is. The reason to make games is different now, that's why we can't have good things like actual roguelikes.
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I was a member of the Sijun.com art forum.
It was created in 1999 by Dhabih who works at Valve. He is the guy that does those painted images of Gordon Freeman in HalfLife.
It was the first best art forum and around 2003 when I joined it was starting to slow down a bit.
Then about 2010 it was mostly dead, like here. With just 20 people popping in and old timers coming by once per year.
Dhabih declared it dead in June 2018 in a farewell thread and locked everything except that thread, The forum is still up with most images being broken links.
So the quality was always there. The most experienced artists that were doing critiques were gone.
The numbers just declined with more art sites splitting attention.
In order to maintain long term knowledge nothing beats a forum.
Discord is a joke in this regard. I dont know much about Reddit.
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To be clear, I don't think many users have ran away scared because you're so edgy, krice. It's rather that people come here to discuss Roguelikes, not listen to some random dude's whining and mostly off topic rants (flame wars about genre definitions and languages get old fast).
Having "edgy" discussions and opininated posters is one thing - nothing wrong with that, it's normal on every forum. Having somebody tell you right off the bat "fuck off, you don't belong here" and then seeing this being at worst cheered on, at best tolerated by mods and regulars is entirely different matter. I know what I would do if I was a new poster- shrug, write off this board as ridiculous and move on.
It's been like this for years and it fed into the general discord between the fans of classic RLs and the modern crowd.
Like I said, I don't think nor expect that anything can be done about it, it will just remain a tumbleweed-strewn playground for the few delusionals who think that they are the true voice of RL community. (https://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=5703.msg52037#msg52037) Meanwhile, the rest of the RL world has moved around it and onwards, kind of like Americans did in WW2 with those Pacific Islands with hardcore Japanese garnison.
I don't find watching this pleasant at all, because of old sentiments, so it's most likely my last post here too.
At the moment spam is also 3-deep in some threads. So there's that too :)
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the rest of the RL world has moved around it and onwards
Moved to what? Don't be delusional. This forum is full of 7DRL level roguelites. No one is driving you away if you are creating one of those. But don't claim it to be an actual roguelike. Also, if your game has nothing to do with roguelikes, why post it here? I think we could have a place for not-roguelike projects in this forum.
Forum is just as dead as its users. If you don't write or contribute anything, don't whine about it.
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Hello!
The forums are open to the discussion of all kind of roguelikes, and games that incorporate roguelike elements.
I am aware certain members of the forums have a hostile tone towards anything different than their strict _definition_ of a roguelike. I don't share this view and I will make sure this is clear so newcomers don't get a wrong impression. (I will place a giant banner in the homepage so this is clear.)
I love 7DRL games and consider them absolutely *real* roguelikes, the good ones are great fun and awesome exercises of product management and engineering. Working for years in a roguelike project without releasing a completely playable and enjoyable version of it may itself be enjoyable for the developer, and even fancy for his followers if he's creating cool procgen or world systems, so that is welcome too.
Action roguelikes (commonly referred to as _roguelites_) are great fun and a great legacy of the traditional roguelike games from the 80's and 90's, you can talk about them here too. Traditional roguelikes, turn-based games that stick to the original formula and at the same time seek to innovate, at the expense of having a harder time finding followers and players, will always have a place here.
Making money from roguelikes is fine, you need resources in order to elevate the production levels of your game, reach more people, and live a happy life. If you want to make money from your roguelike game, you can talk about that here too. If you'd prefer not to have the needs and preferences of the market affect your vision, or you believe games should be free, you are welcome too.
Anyone that doesn't share these ideas is welcome to stay and discuss in a civilized manner. Harassing people who don't share your ideas will not be tolerated, messages will be deleted, and repeating offenders will have their account frozen.
While most of the discussion is happening in reddit and discord, I still believe these forums are a valuable resource for more structured, long-term discussion, that is persistent over time.
Lately it has been hard for me to devote a lot of time to the maintenance of the forums. However, I do my best to keep the spam at bay and I will keep doing it, so please keep the reports coming!
I still plan to revive two specific projects for the temple:
- The roguemundi, so you can find fellow roguelike devs and fans around the world
- A virtual space where we all can interact in a roguelike manner, and build the temple and its catacombs.
So, stay here, and bring your friends!
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Spam wise of late was down to a log in error that cropped up of late until just now when Slash reminded me of the side entrance and upon him dispensing righteous cleansing fire just prior to that leaving me a single witness to dispatch of---so that's one thing sorted.
I do what I can in my severely diminished state on the Announcements section, for whatever time I may have left on this spinning rock to do so, and whatnot as the thoughts occur to me in time, though from the beginning the Best Practice has always been for at least devs to post up their own updates as---but most devs, same as most people, have ample reality encroaching upon them in terms of commercial applications thereof to contend with and/or the general state of the world at large impacting the world at play.
Discord is even more ephemeral than Reddit, so while both have their absolute uses in harnessing and generating Momentum, and that being the only other applicable god of game or Roguelike development aside from XOM---a proper forum for archival, musing, longer form discussion, etc that also happens to not be attached to any international corporate conglomerates has an at least equal supporting absolute value. Flippantly and without solid reason beyond my own bias, I blame the quiet death of ARRP this past time around the bend as the 7DRL apparatus finally managed something of an apparent Highlander victory over it.
The True Rot respects no venue though, as a malevolent spirit is wont to do---Definition Policing and the more classical form of discord is fairly rampant on Reddit even with the greater host of folks routinely hosing it down. I don't believe it all to be doomed to Sisyphean ends, but the disconnect sharpened as fortunes otherwise favored with the rise of Steam, hubris-laden semi-collapse of Steam as far as indie outfits are concerned, rise of crowdfunding, rise of patreon, etc.
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Slash
Well said sir. :)
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I am new here, and have had no problems so far.
Though I haven't been on a forum like this in years, so am still getting used to it.
As for spam-bots and trolls, they don't bother me at all. Worries about etiquette are more off-putting.
Seeing the light moderation so far has put me at ease really. If people don't take things too seriously, I feel more able to just relax and speak my mind.
Not sure if that reflects forum goers in general though, who seem to want something more like a gated community, but I think discussion still trumps discomfort.
People see something they disagree with or want to respond to, and they will go through the trouble of registering to post. That is what brought me here.
A big reason I put off posting here for a long time is because the place looked empty.
Biggest turn off right now is wanting to discuss something when no one is around to reply.
From what I remember maintaining activity on forums has a lot to do with creating a positive feedback loop.
Things seem bad now, but if people just keep discussions going, it will bring in more attention which will make more discussion.
I've seen forums go from dead back to thriving in no time at all, so don't feel too bad.
Just my thoughts on this.
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Honestly I gotta agree with Krices definition. I vehemently oppose the ideal that any game with permadeath and rng elements belongs in the category. We had a conference about this in 2008. We have a proper definition. That proper definition(although unvoiced until 2008) stood for 20 damn years. If RNG and permadeath are the only parameters then Tetris is a roguelike. Hell most "roguelikes" by the modern "definition" play less like rogue than civ, SLAY(and its clones Antyoy and Wodan Die Peferung) or any other turn based strategy game that is decidedly unlike Rogue. The modern definition that people are going by is going to kill the genre.
Why do I say this? Because games like hero siege, domina, Brut@l, cultist sim and many other genre breaking titles are also being thrown into the genre. Hero siege has no permadeath unless you specifically enable it. It plays decidedly unlike rogue given its a fast paced "gauntlet/diablo blend" and its only "rOgUeLiKe" element is the fact levels/dungeons are random-ish. This is by no means a roguelike
Domina is literally a management sim with your only random element being who you fight, its always the same Colosseum. The "permadeath" aspect is irrelevant when the units that "permanently die" are 100% renewable. This is no more a roguelike than cookie clicker.
Brut@l fits the same category as hero siege but with much heavier reliance on gauntlet elements over diablo ones. It is not a roguelike.
Cultist sim is a goddamn solitaire clone with a lovecraftian story and eggtimers thrown into the mix. It is not a roguelike
To call what the commercial market calls roguelikes is to kill the very definition of the genre. As of Jan this year I personally shall not play nor pay for a game tagged or advertised as "roguelike" on any gaming platform unless it is actually /like rogue/
Find a different genre to lump your games into if you want my patronage.
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I'm not lumping together all these different games into a single genre, but rather recognizing that the elements they share are sufficient to provide interesting conversation material for people who play them.
I don't believe allowing discussion of variations to the classic formula will "kill the genre", in fact, this discussion is healthy so people never forget there is a Classic / Traditional style of roguelikes, their importance in history and that there are games keeping up more closely with their style that are being actively worked nowadays, expanding the genre in different directions.
As for the "roguelike mislabeling" issue, the most negative effect I've seen is on discoverability on platforms like Steam, it might be hard to find a traditional roguelike there, but there are alternate ways to do that, like using IRLDB, or querying for traditional roguelike (https://itch.io/search?q=traditional+roguelike) in other platforms. Recently, devs have become aware of this, and have started tagging their games with the infamous rogue-lite tag.
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The message at the top has been updated to:
We welcome discussion of all subtypes of Roguelikes, including Action Roguelikes (roguelites) and procedural games with metaprogression.
You are encouraged to learn more about the Traditional roguelikes (https://blog.roguetemple.com/what-is-a-traditional-roguelike/), and how they differ from often mislabeled modern games.
Guys I love traditional roguelikes as much as you do. :)
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I rarely post but come here intermittently, mostly as an archive for Roguelike development. I always get excited when I see something new and/or in active development as inspiration hits. Thanks for posting those.
ToTR would be more active if there were more traditional roguelike development going on in the world today, but aside from Caves of Qud, I can't really think of a polished, production-grade roguelike that's hit the streets lately and blows people away. It takes a lot of time and energy to create the depth (and craziness) of a mature roguelike... these projects are few and far between. Meanwhile, hybrid indies have sort of appropriated the term. It's not like they're stealing the thunder -- they are filling a gap left by a dearth of development.
Still, you'd get more community engagement around here with less bickering and more, you know, community. Round robin games and the like. I definitely wish that people would keep their obnoxious "tough but fair" / "telling it like it is" opinions to themselves but the problem isn't trolls so much as a lack of an ambient, mostly harmonious community that drowns out the occasional troll.
Anyway, still very happy that this place is around and grateful that Slash maintains it.
Meanwhile, ToTRR would be more active if I hadn't accidentally gotten a rat for my first kill.
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I'm not lumping together all these different games into a single genre, but rather recognizing that the elements they share are sufficient to provide interesting conversation material for people who play them.
I don't believe allowing discussion of variations to the classic formula will "kill the genre", in fact, this discussion is healthy so people never forget there is a Classic / Traditional style of roguelikes, their importance in history and that there are games keeping up more closely with their style that are being actively worked nowadays, expanding the genre in different directions.
As for the "roguelike mislabeling" issue, the most negative effect I've seen is on discoverability on platforms like Steam, it might be hard to find a traditional roguelike there, but there are alternate ways to do that, like using IRLDB, or querying for traditional roguelike (https://itch.io/search?q=traditional+roguelike) in other platforms. Recently, devs have become aware of this, and have started tagging their games with the infamous rogue-lite tag.
The trouble is that anything on steam labelled as roguelite is also mislabelled as "rOgUeLiKe". the trouble is that people are blurring the lines between the tags. The trouble is that many games get tagged as roguelikes when they're simply not and people are more accepting of this definition than the actual one. When voicing why Hero Siege isnt a roguelike I've actually had assholes say "oh the permadeath aspect was never important"
THAT is whats killing the genre. If we are not careful the roguelite tag will cease and then its cesspit of mismatched games will get wrongfully lumped into the roguelike tag. Hell we've already RECENTLY had some numbnut try advertise immortal redneck here, specifically use the term roguelike in its definition when its just bloody well not. How is that not damning proof that the genre is being slaughtered like a goddamn sacrificial grid bug corpse?!
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That's why I feel we should keep an open discussion about it, to be able to point people that, for instance, permadeath was and still is an important aspect of roguelikes. If we are open to talk about other games, we have a chance to inform their players about the history of the roguelikes and how their game ended up being labeled as a roguelike even if it lacked critical aspects of the traditional ones.
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That's why I feel we should keep an open discussion about it, to be able to point people that, for instance, permadeath was and still is an important aspect of roguelikes. If we are open to talk about other games, we have a chance to inform their players about the history of the roguelikes and how their game ended up being labeled as a roguelike even if it lacked critical aspects of the traditional ones.
The issue is no one gives a damn about the history. No one gives a damn about what roguelikes are meant to be. No one gives a rats ass about the fact that what is actually like the defining games in the genre is nothing alike the modern tag and the modern definition thereof is choking out the rogue-like nature of roguelikes. It is sad to say, but when the cesspit of the internet that is reddit is one of the few places that upholds the definition of a genre, that genre is well and truly dead.
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A bit of tempest in a teapot as even jrpgs have weathered a similar drift/mutation/We Somehow Forgot---not too far removed from Roguelikes, the original aim was to adapt western tabletop P&P doings either directly as per Final Fantasy or indirectly as per The Black Onyx. Even most enthusiasts, international or otherwise, since the 90's would be likely to not find that out until long after the fact, if at all.
That which is dead and doomsayed is oftentimes quite alive after a fashion----depends on how the immortal spirit is inherited or leveraged.
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A bit of tempest in a teapot as even jrpgs have weathered a similar drift/mutation/We Somehow Forgot---not too far removed from Roguelikes, the original aim was to adapt western tabletop P&P doings either directly as per Final Fantasy or indirectly as per The Black Onyx. Even most enthusiasts, international or otherwise, since the 90's would be likely to not find that out until long after the fact, if at all.
That which is dead and doomsayed is oftentimes quite alive after a fashion----depends on how the immortal spirit is inherited or leveraged.
Alive but in what capacity? In what form? In what iteration? The modern roguelike tag is such a butchery of the genre its no more a fair and accurate assessment than to call Assassins Creed an "RPG" series. If we see the roguelike tag mangled like this too much further then I think I'm just done with modern gaming in its entirety tbh.
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You can venerate a corpse or a spirit---while the former has an absolute value to the ecosystem at a foundational level, the latter is where the potential dwells from that inherited will.
It is just a damned Steam tag, something they only even started bothering with in recent times as one of many things slapped onto their buckling platform to grant an illusion of agency and discoverability to compensate for their refusal to set actual people to work alongside foolhardy attempts at algorithmic cleverness. Marketing copy is also just that, AC positioning is just as as something like "immersive adventure" or whatever wasn't as snappy or resonant.
Modern gaming isn't even real, there's only ever been Now with the slim benefit of the immediate past as the industry proper ran away from systemic problems staring it down since the 80's. Try not to let such machinations have an undue hold over your peace of mind and enjoyment of things---be an enthusiast, not merely some consumer fit for a whipped mob's froth.
You get infinitely more mileage boosting the good and nigh forgotten/out of the limelight, than hopping on an outrage bandwagon that only has fine grains of a point buried deep within---less stress over the already successful Hero Siege and the sequel to come that veers harder on the Diablo evolution, more active emphasis/playing/testing/feedback etc on...hell I don't know...one of the many stupidly ambitious and well wrought projects like Axu that punches in the same weight class as Caves of Qud?
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You can venerate a corpse or a spirit---while the former has an absolute value to the ecosystem at a foundational level, the latter is where the potential dwells from that inherited will.
It is just a damned Steam tag, something they only even started bothering with in recent times as one of many things slapped onto their buckling platform to grant an illusion of agency and discoverability to compensate for their refusal to set actual people to work alongside foolhardy attempts at algorithmic cleverness. Marketing copy is also just that, AC positioning is just as as something like "immersive adventure" or whatever wasn't as snappy or resonant.
Modern gaming isn't even real, there's only ever been Now with the slim benefit of the immediate past as the industry proper ran away from systemic problems staring it down since the 80's. Try not to let such machinations have an undue hold over your peace of mind and enjoyment of things---be an enthusiast, not merely some consumer fit for a whipped mob's froth.
You get infinitely more mileage boosting the good and nigh forgotten/out of the limelight, than hopping on an outrage bandwagon that only has fine grains of a point buried deep within---less stress over the already successful Hero Siege and the sequel to come that veers harder on the Diablo evolution, more active emphasis/playing/testing/feedback etc on...hell I don't know...one of the many stupidly ambitious and well wrought projects like Axu that punches in the same weight class as Caves of Qud?
The issue is that actual roguelikes are being choked out by a myriad of games that just arent in the genre. The genre is a dying husk of itself because of that. Commercialization is killing roguelikes, propping up roguelites as if they're roguelikes and propping up games entirely outside the genre as if they belong. If/when roguelikes as they're meant to be and had been for the first 20 years of the terms inception die out I'm just done. In that situation just send my ass back to the time before broadband as far as gaming goes mate.
Plain and simple: Capitalism is killing roguelikes. Its enough to drive a man to communism! :P 8)
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Anyone that doesn't share these ideas is welcome to stay and discuss in a civilized manner. Harassing people who don't share your ideas will not be tolerated, messages will be deleted, and repeating offenders will have their account frozen.
This is pretty much what it boils down to, and one of the main reasons I started this thread. Without some semblance of civility enforced by strict moderation (in this respect) this forum is a write-off. Sure, it can carry on as a shambling corpse with few ~edgy~ dudes circlejerking and echo-chambering, but I don't think anybody else is seriously interested in that.
Just to make it extra clear it is NOT about disagreeing about roguelites. It is about being a c**t when disagreeing about roguelites. Or, of course any other gripe: why C++ sucks why Nethack is overrated etc etc, but the -lite thing is of ocurse top of the ranking. Extra points for not making any sort of -phobic comments this forum had a fair share of.
Step two, as Slash and others pointed out, could be trying to understand that fighting some Holy Anti Lite war is a lost cause and not a way forward. The way forward is coexistence and education. But without step one nobody will ever come down here to, ahem, "receive our teachings".
For the record, I'm actually also much-concerned about future of classic RLs, though that does not stop me from enjoying plenty of roguelites, some of which are awesome and pretty much have the roguelike spirit locked down - they're just in different genres. I've also recently come to conclusion that roguelites aren't a real threat - this would modern trend of streamlining existing classic RL templates.
But this is something we could discuss in the Temple proper - if only the previous conditions were met. Believe me, I'm not exactly a wallflower, can give as good as I get and I'm not worried about some local tough guy flexin'. It's just I don't have time nor interest in doing so anymore. Is there anything more tedious and pointless than a "discussion" where in every other post you have to fend off hostilities?
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Commercialization is killing roguelikes,
Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's, even if regional in exodus not unlike Metal and Wizardry, such that it is now 2019. Death pronouncements along these lines have been a factor year after year after year now---yet, curiously, Things Continue with this not being appreciated on a cognizant level not unlike apocalyptic movements missing a midnight deadline yet rallying that it'll totally happen next weekend. "Pre-Millenium" Roguelikes dying out any time soon just doesn't have a leg to stand on when they keep cropping up(even just the last few weeks have granted the world The Red Prison and Zorbus!) and the classics either still actively live (like IVAN!) or are preserved in graceful repose.
You want a real risk? Death of developers and/or their ruination otherwise---as per Dwarf Fortress. People are ALWAYS at a more paramount risk than broad constructs hewn broadly around their great works, doubly with a small population compared to other sectors.
Games aren't weeds, even weird GaaS stuff serves some purpose so long as the gambling/addiction interlopers are kept in check---games are an ecosystem with biodiversity being key to a rich environ full of intrigue.
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Commercialization is killing roguelikes,
Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's, even if regional in exodus not unlike Metal and Wizardry, such that it is now 2019. Death pronouncements along these lines have been a factor year after year after year now---yet, curiously, Things Continue with this not being appreciated on a cognizant level not unlike apocalyptic movements missing a midnight deadline yet rallying that it'll totally happen next weekend. "Pre-Millenium" Roguelikes dying out any time soon just doesn't have a leg to stand on when they keep cropping up(even just the last few weeks have granted the world The Red Prison and Zorbus!) and the classics either still actively live (like IVAN!) or are preserved in graceful repose.
You want a real risk? Death of developers and/or their ruination otherwise---as per Dwarf Fortress. People are ALWAYS at a more paramount risk than broad constructs hewn broadly around their great works, doubly with a small population compared to other sectors.
Games aren't weeds, even weird GaaS stuff serves some purpose so long as the gambling/addiction interlopers are kept in check---games are an ecosystem with biodiversity being key to a rich environ full of intrigue.
I'd be more inclined to believe that if I hadnt come across people irl who claimed that "roguelikes need fast paced action gameplay" and that nethack wasnt a roguelike a couple of days ago. The snotbags even had the nerve to state that nethack was never a roguelike. Dudes werent even young peeps. Sonsabitches were 20-30-ish. My age!
Point blank rampant commercialization of games that share nothing or near-nothing with the genre such as slay the spire, risk of rain, immortal redneck and other titles of that ilk as roguelikes are drowning out the actual genre
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Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's
Maybe japanese ones, but not in here. Not really. Rogue (graphical version) and Ragnarok were the only commercial roguelikes anyway, and I wouldn't call them a success in a way much more succesful games were. The reason some developers make commercial versions today is that there are way more players than back then, so everything that attracts some kind of interest will sell ok, I guess? Ok enough to put your game in roguelike genre even it's not a roguelike. That's the problem, sir.
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Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's
Maybe japanese ones, but not in here. Not really. Rogue (graphical version) and Ragnarok were the only commercial roguelikes anyway, and I wouldn't call them a success in a way much more succesful games were. The reason some developers make commercial versions today is that there are way more players than back then, so everything that attracts some kind of interest will sell ok, I guess? Ok enough to put your game in roguelike genre even it's not a roguelike. That's the problem, sir.
Agreed. I'd even go as far to say that Rogue was a commercial flop and that Rogues main success was the spawning of its genre. The trouble is that for the largest time that genre was freeware, it was for lack of the proper term "donationware" and it was run by a community of freeware/donationware developers who made things in the spirit and nature of Rogue and its ilk for the sake of making things that were like that.
The commercial market however just. Does. Not. Give. A. Single. Flamingo. Pink. Fuck.
The commercial market poisons the well with titles like Risk of Rain, Domina, Hero Siege, Isaac, Spelunky etc and calls those "roguelikes" when they just arent. The commercial market cares more for the cash its titles bring in than how those titles are labelled, and if a title is mislabeled they mangle the label rather than regroup the product.
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The trouble is that anything on steam labelled as roguelite is also mislabelled as "rOgUeLiKe". the trouble is that people are blurring the lines between the tags. The trouble is that many games get tagged as roguelikes when they're simply not and people are more accepting of this definition than the actual one. When voicing why Hero Siege isnt a roguelike I've actually had assholes say "oh the permadeath aspect was never important"
THAT is whats killing the genre. If we are not careful the roguelite tag will cease and then its cesspit of mismatched games will get wrongfully lumped into the roguelike tag. Hell we've already RECENTLY had some numbnut try advertise immortal redneck here, specifically use the term roguelike in its definition when its just bloody well not. How is that not damning proof that the genre is being slaughtered like a goddamn sacrificial grid bug corpse?!
That is why I emphasize the importance of the "dungeon" in defining the genre. A roguelike game revolves largely around the dungeon, if the developers admit it or not.
Tetris has no dungeon, Sim-city has no dungeon, minecraft has no dungeon, dwarf fortress has no dungeon, but "immortal redneck" still does.
It is very hard to blur the definition that way, and it covers the majority of games directly inspired by rogue or the well-known classic roguelikes.
There is no need for quantification of various concepts like with the Berlin Interpretation, or having to rely on your gut to tell you if it is or not.
Simply look at the dungeon. If there is no randomly generated dungeon for the player character to traverse to reach a goal, there is no roguelike. It is as simple as that.
Beyond the dungeon is just a big discussion over how closely a game adheres to the "traditional" design choices of rogue, many which likely were not choices at all and come from technical limitations.
Then again. I have no concerns with preserving the genre from decay or anything like that, I know it is totally out of my hands. I also don't know how annoying Steam is.
The only thing I am concerned with is producing a definition that is simple and consistent enough. If we just rely on our gut, then there is no definition of roguelikes.
If we rely on that, and just ask what is "like rogue" then we are no different from the Steam users, as there is no authority to say what is "like rogue" or not, only popular opinion.
The best way to satisfy all groups is to accept sub-genres like "Traditional roguelike" or "Roguelite" and understand the differences.
Even "Rogue Clone" isn't necessarily wrong for Steam, as you can simply search for "Rogue Clone" and find what you are looking for.
Here you don't have to do much searching at all, because more games follow traditional design choices than not.
And that ties in with traditional design and commercialization not meshing well, as you seem to have noticed.
Without some semblance of civility enforced by strict moderation (in this respect) this forum is a write-off. Sure, it can carry on as a shambling corpse with few ~edgy~ dudes circlejerking and echo-chambering, but I don't think anybody else is seriously interested in that.
A lot of people say this kind of thing with the assumption that authority will fall on their side, but I think your post could be seen as pretty abrasive itself, no less so than what Krice normally says.
Not that there is anything wrong with being abrasive. I just want to emphasize that strict moderation and a "civil" community would not necessarily translate into a more pleasant environment.
It usually translates into one group of abrasive people, with whom the moderators are aligned, to passive aggressively enforce another group of abrasive people, with whom the moderators are not aligned.
At the end of the day, witnessing these people trying coax moderators (in civil way) to shut each other up is far more uncomfortable than to just be faced with harsh criticism from a few of those otherwise powerless people.
This place still feels fairly innocent in that regard, and I would advise you to cherish that, because once lines are drawn in the sand people only become more resentful. I would rather things remain this way for as long as possible.
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A lot of people say this kind of thing with the assumption that authority will fall on their side
I find this interesting, because what we think things (like roguelikes) are is different than reality. In most cases. It's a bigger issue in today's world and in a weird way it's showing in this, too. Imagine if people were logical about this. Then we would not even have this discussion, everyone would know what a roguelike is, without "interpretations" from some random people who think they are the authority on the subject. And I think most people know what a roguelike is, but they are dishonest.
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I think the following two reasons are spot on as to why this forum isn't active (not to exlude other good points):
A big reason I put off posting here for a long time is because the place looked empty.
ToTR would be more active if there were more traditional roguelike development going on in the world today
The 'successful' forums I've been apart of in the past have had new posts every two-to-three days minimum. Fresh posts means people have a reason to keep coming back. Forums do at least have the benefit of irrelevant/off-topic sections, which gives newcomers an entry point into the community without feeling like they'll immediately face scrutiny (every long term user looks scary when you first join a forum, not just the Krice-likes). But the off-topic section here is just as quiet as the rest of the forum.
The second problem, as Jim pointed out, is that traditional Roguelikes are a niche, and a forum dedicated mostly to intending or active Roguelike developers means only a small amount of people globally would be interested in coming here in the first place. It doesn't help that there's a lack of support for, and general disfavourment of, classic/ASCII/Ultima-like RPGs and Roguelites. Fail to mention, roguelikes are an old genre (no offence ;)), and I'd assume most people interested in them nowadays either have fulltime jobs, or other time-consuming commitments (i.e. families) that stop them from being active anywhere online.
The spam posts don't help either. They're like tumbleweed passing by the remnants of a once-bustling town, only noticeable because there's a lack of anything else going on.
I'd also assume that forums as a whole just aren't that popular anymore with all the Twitters, Reddits, Facebooks, YouTubes, Twitchers, Facetubes, Instasnaps, and what not, that push online content into one spot.
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Fail to mention, roguelikes are an old genre
RPGs are older. What it has to do with anything?
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Fail to mention, roguelikes are an old genre
RPGs are older. What it has to do with anything?
Poor wording on my behalf. I mean to say that (1) traditional Roguelikes are a niche and are not popular with 'the youth', (2) that people who are not 'the youth' have shit to do in the real world, (3) that 'the youth' have a lot more free time to waste on using forums, (4) this forum really only supports traditional Roguelikes (whose prime audience is busy people), and therefore (5) it will always have limited activity... unless a traditional Roguelike takes the world by storm. If that makes more sense? It's an assumption that could be very wrong, I'll admit. And I certainly don't mean it in an offensive way.
And yes, RPGs are older, but at least RPG Codex facilitates a space for those who like Skyrim vs. those who think Baldur's Gate was God's gift and anything that isn't made using the Infinity Engine is not a true RPG. If those people had their way, RPG Codex would be as quiet as this forum, especially if it focused primarily on the developers and the development of those puritan classic RPGs.
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If those people had their way, RPG Codex would be as quiet as this forum
Then again, what is wrong with being a quiet forum or a small game genre? There is less noise for sure. I think people who are wondering those things are asking the wrong question.
I like that roguelike genre is focused and small. It is for reasons: both making and playing roguelikes is hard. Much harder than other genres (with some exceptions). That's the point. Don't miss it.
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If those people had their way, RPG Codex would be as quiet as this forum
Then again, what is wrong with being a quiet forum or a small game genre? There is less noise for sure. I think people who are wondering those things are asking the wrong question.
I like that roguelike genre is focused and small. It is for reasons: both making and playing roguelikes is hard. Much harder than other genres (with some exceptions). That's the point. Don't miss it.
There's nothing wrong with it. If there was, I wouldn't be here. But the post is titled "The Temple is crumbling down" with musings as to why there's only a few people remaining. I'm trying to offer potential reasons is all, not guidance. :D
I agree once more. I wouldn't be here otherwise. But put that into the perspective of: this forum will probably never get busy again; it's not a failing, but rather time and people have largely moved on. It happens.
I joined because I've enjoyed open world RPGs for years and wanted to know what one could achieve using a terminal as an interface to help motivate myself to keep programming (also, graphics are expensive, and its a life goal of mine to make an RPG), only to discover a genre and set of games I never expected to enjoy, and people that I respect and admire or find interesting or insightful. :)
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That is why I emphasize the importance of the "dungeon" in defining the genre. A roguelike game revolves largely around the dungeon, if the developers admit it or not.
Tetris has no dungeon, Sim-city has no dungeon, minecraft has no dungeon, dwarf fortress has no dungeon, but "immortal redneck" still does.
Here's the issue with putting emphasis on dungeons: There are open world roguelikes such as Elona, neoscavenger and the likes that fit the definition of roguelike better than immortal redneck. Hell minecraft actually does have dungeons. I'd say minecraft is more of a roguelike than immortal redneck.
Neither count.
Then there's also the fact that in oldschool IVAN(idk about the current build) you used to be able to use the run and kick commands to train leg strength. You could also steal the bananas by kicking them away from the drop/harvest tile then picking them up thus allowing you to just train leg strength until you got strong enough to just beat the shit outta everyone in the starting slave encampment. That means a classic roguelike had a completion path that allowed for a no-dungeon run. By your own standards, your own standards defy themselves
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That is why I emphasize the importance of the "dungeon" in defining the genre. A roguelike game revolves largely around the dungeon, if the developers admit it or not.
Tetris has no dungeon, Sim-city has no dungeon, minecraft has no dungeon, dwarf fortress has no dungeon, but "immortal redneck" still does.
Here's the issue with putting emphasis on dungeons: There are open world roguelikes such as Elona, neoscavenger and the likes that fit the definition of roguelike better than immortal redneck. Hell minecraft actually does have dungeons. I'd say minecraft is more of a roguelike than immortal redneck.
Neither count.
Then there's also the fact that in oldschool IVAN(idk about the current build) you used to be able to use the run and kick commands to train leg strength. You could also steal the bananas by kicking them away from the drop/harvest tile then picking them up thus allowing you to just train leg strength until you got strong enough to just beat the shit outta everyone in the starting slave encampment. That means a classic roguelike had a completion path that allowed for a no-dungeon run. By your own standards, your own standards defy themselves
The randomly generated dungeons in Elona are the only thing that define it as a roguelike for me.
Imagine if all of those dungeons were handcrafted instead. I would disagree with calling it a roguelike then.
As for more open-world games like minecraft, I admit there is some potential for genre-overlap with the presence of dungeons in survival games.
It is then an issue of how much of the gameplay those dungeons make up. That becomes more messy, and I don't have a simple answer for it yet.
Right now I would just call those roguelike sections in a survival game. Like platforming sections in a FPS, or driving sections in a platformer, etc.
As for IVAN, kicking items to steal them is an exploit, so I don't think it counts.
Also while I don't know how viable that strategy actually is, it is regardless too cryptic to define the entire game by.
I don't know anything about neoscavenger, but it looks like more of a survival game to me.
Though like I said above, that gets tricky for me if there are "dungeons" throughout.
I find this interesting, because what we think things (like roguelikes) are is different than reality. In most cases. It's a bigger issue in today's world and in a weird way it's showing in this, too. Imagine if people were logical about this. Then we would not even have this discussion, everyone would know what a roguelike is, without "interpretations" from some random people who think they are the authority on the subject. And I think most people know what a roguelike is, but they are dishonest.
I don't think it is so simple. When I think of roguelikes, the first thing that comes to mind is the ASCII graphics. That is what caught my attention when I first saw Rogue as a teenager.
Though when I think things through some more, to define a roguelike by a cosmetic feature like that seems incorrect. Particularly when I remember that the real reason for it is technical limitations.
After that I try to find a "proper" way to define what a roguelike is for myself, and I have never had trouble defining things like Spelunky as roguelikes, but then I've never seen anything to lose including them either.
It was always more of an issue of trying to understand what exactly I am talking about when I say "roguelike" all the time. I want to have an idea in my head that is based on something solid and not just my nostalgia.
But it is a big assumption to think other people put the same emotional weight on certain aspects of a genre. Steam users probably do not register much of a reaction to ASCII for example.
I have spent a lot of time playing roguelikes, but only recently am so lucky to get to talk about them to this extent. I am usually surprised with how little weight some of you put on the dungeon, where it is the only criteria for me.
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The trouble is that Immortal Redneck does not bear any semblance to rogue, nor the other genre defining titles whereas Neoscavenger does. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier to roguelikes we're then excluding some actual roguelikes in favor of allowing games like Immortal Redneck, when Immortal Redneck fits less than the open world roguelikes such as Unreal World, Neoscavenger and Ragnarok that are roguelikes. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier we're then expected to kick out every open world game regardless of whether it actually fits.
Immortal Redneck, Minecraft, Organ Trail, Domina etc do not fit as they dont have the feel of a roguelike, there's little tact and in the case of all 4 any "permadeath" aspect is limpwristed at best while they do not play otherwise like anything else properly assigned within the genre.
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I don't think it is so simple. When I think of roguelikes, the first thing that comes to mind is the ASCII graphics.
Some roguelikes like Nethack has tiles version. It's still the same game. If you really think about it, ascii is also tiles. It's graphics, just simpler.
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The trouble is that Immortal Redneck does not bear any semblance to rogue, nor the other genre defining titles whereas Neoscavenger does. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier to roguelikes we're then excluding some actual roguelikes in favor of allowing games like Immortal Redneck, when Immortal Redneck fits less than the open world roguelikes such as Unreal World, Neoscavenger and Ragnarok that are roguelikes. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier we're then expected to kick out every open world game regardless of whether it actually fits.
Immortal Redneck, Minecraft, Organ Trail, Domina etc do not fit as they dont have the feel of a roguelike, there's little tact and in the case of all 4 any "permadeath" aspect is limpwristed at best while they do not play otherwise like anything else properly assigned within the genre.
I have been questioning the importance of permadeath. One of the games you mentioned earlier, Elona, does not have permadeath for example.
Though the dungeons are still randomized, so it still seems to come off as "roguelike" enough as a result.
I think it illustrates another example of how this is the most fundamental aspect of the genre.
Again, for me there is a grey area between the survival and roguelike genre, because of the dungeons often included in those games. Though no, I don't consider Unreal-world a "true" roguelike due to the lack of them.
There is no dungeon to traverse towards a goal. There is an infinite plain of resources placed about randomly, with a few obstacles, but this is more like a "wilderness" than a "dungeon".
There is scoring based on mastery of skills and exploration iirc, but it is largely vestigial. I don't think most people play for score or compete over who can grind up the skills.
I think I have heard of it's very early states being a roguelike with orcs and other fantasy elements, but at some point it had turned entirely into a realistic survival game.
This is not wrong, and the game is better for the change, but I think there is little gameplay that I would consider "roguelike" left in it as a result.
Again, this is just my opinion, and I admit that survival games put a strain on my definition.
As for Immortal Redneck, you say it has no semblance to Rogue, but I've reached Winter playing Cataclysm DDA and most of the gameplay now is loading/unloading cars and building walls.
I don't really consider most of what goes on in that game something like "Roguelike" gameplay, it is survival on an infinite plain with resources. That is a "wilderness", not a "dungeon", most of the time.
Meanwhile in Immortal Redneck or Spelunky the entire game seems to revolve around progressing through the randomized "dungeon" to a goal.
As far as I am concerned, that fundamentally makes them roguelike, beyond a doubt from me.
And like I said in my last post, at the end of the day it just depends on what emotional weight you put on what "characteristic" of the genre.
No one is really the same in this regard. I do not put much weight at all on turns or tiles, these things do not change the fundamental gameplay.
Think about chess. Competitive players are often playing by a timer, which limits how long they can consider things, but the game itself is the same.
Some roguelikes like Nethack has tiles version. It's still the same game. If you really think about it, ascii is also tiles. It's graphics, just simpler.
That reminds me of something.
Though I said ASCII in Rogue was just cosmetic, I was wrong, it actually wasn't entirely. This is something I've discovered pretty recently when I tried the "Lets beat rogue" thing.
I wanted to open up Rogue to mess with how enemies spawned as an experiment, but it was not just a "at level 3 start putting ants" kind of thing like I expected to find.
You might notice that Rogue's dungeon is 26 levels deep, and the bestiary is 26 monsters large. These are both the size of the alphabet, and spawns are based on this.
Spawns are not written out for each level but based on a global rule that works with an array of 26 elements. It is kind of difficult to put into words.
Spinoffs did not follow this rule as far as I know, and it is easy not to notice, but it is there and makes a big difference in what the developer can do. Like a haiku does for a poet.
In an alternate reality people could have noticed this strange mechanic and taken it to heart, and we would be arguing "Should there only be 26 monsters in a roguelike?"
As for nethack, the tiles can still throw you off for a reason similar to this.
The orb and the scroll of genocide both work through characters, but if you use tiles like I did then this will confuse you.
Though that is very minor compared to the issue with Rogue. I also remember reading from a few oldschool Nethack players they didn't like the "new" colored display.
Colors in the display allow for an exponentially larger bestiary, and tiles allow for an even larger one. But if we follow Rogue's "Alphabet only" rule, what you can add is very restricted.
I also remember reading concerns from the developers of Cataclysm DDA about adding monsters because of the limited amount of character/color options they had for players who do not use tiles.
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I for one believe we've all been living a lie, for Roguelikes are simply a digitised Gygax/Arneson white/red D&D... dungeon crawling, permadeath, turn-based, grid-based, abstracted gameplay through stats + RNG, generative/emergent world building, usually medieval/historical fantasy themed... ;)
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A lot of people say this kind of thing with the assumption that authority will fall on their side, but I think your post could be seen as pretty abrasive itself, no less so than what Krice normally says.
Not that there is anything wrong with being abrasive. I just want to emphasize that strict moderation and a "civil" community would not necessarily translate into a more pleasant environment.
Ah, the predictable, template strawman defence of "but you're rude yourself!" - as if you really failed to comprehend that my abrasiveness stems strictly from exasperation at the situation here and as if couple of posts equalled hundreds. This has been going on for many many years, I myself quit discussions on this form in 2016, so have some perspective. You also handily avoid the crux of my argument: "... it is NOT about disagreeing [...] it is about being a c**t when disagreeing ...".
Not to mention the fact that obviously civil discussion and stricter moderation does translate to a more pleasant environment. Unless our definitions of "pleasant" vary wildly.
On any normal forum Krice would be kicked out to the curb long time ago, and it has nothing to do with some edgy (read: tedious, with added bonus of semi-coherent) opinions. We all have them, it's fine. I'm talking about using ad hominem profanities and repetitive BS spamming which in some cases could constitute as harrasement. That on top of unrelated occasional homophobic/misogynistic/racist musings.
And the real problem is not one sad individual - we're on teh intehnets after all - but the fact that this behaviour was/is tolerated by the staff and often enabled - if not downright supported - by the regulars here. Or rather, some sort of skeleton crew, if we're talking about present day, pun unintended. The difference when I joined this board was that it was populated by numerous quality posters who, while also edgy & opinionated managed to conduct themselves without resorting to base behaviour and were able to construct logical arguments. They were also quick to shoo the troll away. Sadly, they all seem to have disappeared over the years - leaving this place in a grotesque situation where the only real, if unoffical, mod is a toxic hater. A true "Protector of the @", you couldn't make this up :)
It's quite paradoxical for me to admit that reddit - which, alongside assorted - I previously thought a breeding ground for this kinda of behaviour - actually wins here and now the r/roguelikes is the only place which could be called a home of the roguelike community. Sure, you can see heated arguments but ones which are either conducted in civilised fashion or either quickly put down by others or the mods, who are fairly active. And it does a good job of keeping the classic RL spirit alive. Sadly, it suffers from flash-in-the-pan syndrome, the voting nonsense, and is no match for forums as a medium, and this is why it'd be nice to be able to reclaim this one.
Judging by the hilarious way how this thread turned into yet another inane and pointless anti-rogulite/what-is-a-roguelike ramble it was partially supposed to mock, with the OP being told to take his whining elsewhere in the first reply, it's not happening anytime soon though :)
@Slash & getter77: I wish you well and respect the work you put in this far but the truth is that unless you make some substantial changes this place will at best remain what it is now - which is not good at all - or at worst just die completely. Which, on reflection, perhaps would be for the better, as much as it pains me to say so.
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That on top of unrelated occasional homophobic/misogynistic/racist musings.
It takes a SJW level to interpret something I said like that. Don't be that guy. I think what has happened in many forums is that there is exactly one way to look at things and everything else is removed (it could be called a "social media bubble"). For example critical views on monetizing games and using roguelike as marketing scheme: most developers (and moderators) are in that wagon themselves, they can't be critical about it! Everyone is just cheering each other's game projects and trying to create visibility to get more customers to buy their game. Critical comments are suppressed as "toxic". I love this world.
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Ah, the predictable, template strawman defence of "but you're rude yourself!" - as if you really failed to comprehend that my abrasiveness stems strictly from exasperation at the situation here and as if couple of posts equalled hundreds. This has been going on for many many years, I myself quit discussions on this form in 2016, so have some perspective. You also handily avoid the crux of my argument: "... it is NOT about disagreeing [...] it is about being a c**t when disagreeing ...".
Not to mention the fact that obviously civil discussion and stricter moderation does translate to a more pleasant environment. Unless our definitions of "pleasant" vary wildly.
Everyone has their reasons for being rude to others. People have different experiences that they use to justify their actions.
What makes them feel justified is subjective then, so it is difficult to convince somebody that their justification is incorrect.
At least while trying not to to come off as ultimately self-serving, as often is the case in these kind of interactions.
And I think that this is the situation for you and me both.
There are some aspects of your last post which are incongruant with your current argument, particularly considering your choice of profanity.
How you justify that to yourself and how your post comes off to others are different things, but you are taking your personal justification as granted.
That is why this is not just a "no u" type of argument. This is a pretty appropriate (and lucky) example to help illustrate my point right away.
In this case you had already justfied your behavior to yourself, regardless of if you offended anyone else.
Just like Krice you have disregarded if what you had said has made anyone uncomfortable.
I doubt that our definitions of pleasant are really all that different. But it comes off like you are expecting to be uneffected by the "less pleasant" side of your strict proposal.
Like if it is not happening to you, it shouldn't matter. That's for Krice or bad people like him to deal with. It's just like "might makes right" but with a twist. Using force just works.
Their positions don't matter. In the end that "civility" is just dominance, because what is the point of lowering yourself to rudeness when you can just remove your competition?
You can just "kick them to the curb" with a smile on your face and a feeling of smug indifference. Answering for it doesn't matter because those who disagree are helpless.
What is civil and pleasant for one party is seldom for everyone. Only later, when lacking the force that they have grown dependant on, is the dominant party is undone.
Maybe in the past people would "shoo the troll", but now that they are all gone you are left on equal footing with it.
So now what? Rudeness is no more justified than it would have been before. Krice too was labled as a troll, which seems rude to me, but that hasn't stopped him.
Rude posts shouldn't stop you either. Considering the strong reaction you have presented I am confident you can stomach them. But you come off like that is beneath you.
Of course, there is nothing wrong with thinking it is not worth your time.
But I still disagree with your proposal on moderation.
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That's for Krice or bad people like him
Aw, that's cute. Weird thing are people like you and akeley who hang out in the forum and you don't even make roguelikes and possibly don't even play them. It's always those guys who start to point fingers at someone, because they have some problems or whatever. It's like they expect everyone to think and be like they are, nothing else is accepted. People like you have serious problems understanding life and other people, that's why you always attack someone, trying to blame everything on them.
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That's for Krice or bad people like him
Aw, that's cute. Weird thing are people like you and akeley who hang out in the forum and you don't even make roguelikes and possibly don't even play them. It's always those guys who start to point fingers at someone, because they have some problems or whatever. It's like they expect everyone to think and be like they are, nothing else is accepted. People like you have serious problems understanding life and other people, that's why you always attack someone, trying to blame everything on them.
Actually I was defending you there.
I forget sarcasm doesn't always translate well into text.
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I remember I used to hate Krice when I first joined the forum after some months spent lurking.
But then I gradually started to like him more and more due to his intelligent clear cut contributions, often original and insightful. Now I consider him an asset.
Not sure whether some could be discouraged by his presence on the board but the disclaimer under his username should do the trick.
I don't think this place is dead (and won't be until 7DRL and Slash are alive), but I did notice a big drop in activities which coincidentally happened during the transition to SmallMachines forum, which IIRC resulted in the forum not being accessible for some time initially and this graphical restyle which I never really liked.
I wish we could go back to the old black theme with custom avatars.
The thing is there's too many avenues for discussion on roguelikes so they all get diluted.
I remember there was this unofficial Adom forum (anyone remembers user BrazilianWeirdVideos? lol) which was very active, then reddit became the thing (and still has good activity), then ChaosForge (DoomRL mostly) got quite a lot of activity, and so on.
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I *think* we have always been using SMF? we just had a very baaad hacking attempt or spambot situation, or both, and I could no longer keep the original theme. I keep thinking on bringing it back, even if the current one is more _readable_, it just has no personality.
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I get bullied with nonsense because I'm an actual roguelike developer and have strong opinions about roguelike games and the genre.
Wait...what? You are a roguelike developer?
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Wait...what? You are a roguelike developer?
Yes. I'm planning to github Kaduria's source code so everyone interested can follow the development. The src release is actually quite close, just have to handle some data problems first.
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The rudeness from certain members here is unbearable at times. If there was real moderation it could have been nipped in the bud a long time ago. But it's far too late now. The place will just slowly fade.
Right now reddit seems to have the most active roguelike community message board. The development board is good too. Both have strict moderation when it comes to flaming so things are kept civil. The roguelike/roguelite debate comes up now and then, but it doesn't derail every topic like here.
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The rudeness from certain members here is unbearable at times. If there was real moderation it could have been nipped in the bud a long time ago. But it's far too late now. The place will just slowly fade.
It's not too late. What is really rude is not addressing those "certain members" directly. It's almost if everything bad is because of them, which is not true. The thing is, roguelikes (real ones) are not interesting for developers, because they are too hard to create! It's easier to create a roguelike and then try to sell it, which is easier in "forums" (more like advertising platforms) like Reddit where wrong opinions are deleted.
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Hey Krice, any update on a release date for Kaduria? Looking forward to playing 1998’s best roguelike in the year 2019
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Hey Krice, any update on a release date for Kaduria?
I think it's not going to work like that. When I put the source code on github you can only follow it and that's basically the story. The game itself? Who knows, maybe some day it will be some kind of game, I guess?
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Just going to put it here, but I noticed wxwidgets forums is using a clever way to clean bots which is your first couple of posts are moderated, they don't show immediately but go through check. That way moderators can delete bots before they even can post anything. Smart!
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Oh Jesus. You guys are still letting Krice take a shit all over this forum? hahah. I called for his banning years ago.
It's nothing personal, but if you want an active forum, you can't have guys like Krice around. Clearly. Maybe it is personal, I dunno. I left because why deal with such aggravation?
Krice you're still calling yourself a Roguelike developer? How long has it been since a release Krice? 10 years? What a fool. I just logged on for the first time in years, and let me guess, this fucker is still yapping about "is it a roguelike" and what language to use and pretending his pirate game is still a thing. I could be wrong. I used to post all the time and waited YEARS to play Krice's Kadra game or whatever, to see if he was really full of shit or not, but never got so much as a screen shot.
Good luck Temple. I used to love thee.
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his pirate game is still a thing.
It is, but it seems to require more work than I thought, but I guess that's roguelike developing for you. The difficulty of real roguelike development is reflected in this forum as "slow" pace and honestly I think it's worse in Reddit's RL dev where everyone is just not developing roguelikes but something else. I get nothing out reading that "forum", but the users are I guess younger people starting RL development so let's give them time, like 10-20 years of time.
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I reckon almost everyone in the roguelikedev subreddit is developing a traditional roguelike. In fact, I can't think of a prominent example of someone who isn't.
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but if you want an active forum, you can't have guys like Krice around.
At first I thought this is not worth even answering, but since there are people like you I might try to say something about this. You know, I'm just a regular user of this forum, there is nothing special about me. I can't make people leave, they make that decision themselves. My opinion about roguelikes is perfectly compatible with "Berlin interpretation" or any sane one regarding what a roguelike is. The real irony here is that you are making a personal attack based on nothing, not me. I never attack the person, only what he claims about roguelikes or any other subject.
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I just logged on for the first time in years, and let me guess, this fucker is still yapping about "is it a roguelike" and what language to use and pretending his pirate game is still a thing.
You just logged on for the first time in years and all you've got to say is a bunch of random f***s thrown at one of the few who's still here? I don't think it will help to revive this forum and does not make a perfect goodbye message, either.
Speaking of never-ending development. There are people whose goal is to gain some temporary fame and maybe earn some money with their games. That's OK. There are also people who write games for pure fun. For those, I guess, it couldn't matter less whether it's 2 years or 20 years. When it's fun, it could as well last forever, why not? Why banning people for that? Tell me.
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I just logged on for the first time in years, and let me guess, this fucker is still yapping about "is it a roguelike" and what language to use and pretending his pirate game is still a thing.
You just logged on for the first time in years and all you've got to say is a bunch of random f***s thrown at one of the few who's still here? I don't think it will help to revive this forum and does not make a perfect goodbye message, either.
Yes. I'm throwing fucks at the dumb cunt who runs everyone off. The one who killed your forum. I've seen him do it a dozen times back in the day, being a negative little bitch to new people who we never see again.
I'm shocked he's still around. Serious people have very little time to deal with negative little shits who want to argue, win the internet, and generally bum everyone out. Krice is especially bad because he's a total bullshitter, fake developer, buttressing his horseshit on false credibility.
Ban the charlatan a few years ago, like I said, and this forum could have thrived. Maybe. Now, never.
Running a forum is hard. You have to kick the toxic web warriors shitting on everything, even if they didn't technically break any rules. Or else you lose most people. Many admins don't have the balls to be that authoritarian, so fall back on 'open discussion' and such, a free speech rationale. That's all fine, but it kills a forum dead. I've seen it half a dozen times now, forums of all types.
The forum I'm in now has an invite policy, and a don't be a dick policy. If your use of the forum is to argue or win a debate, instead of discuss, and yes there's a huge fucking difference, then you get banned. Instantly.
I logged back in over the last week or so because I was helping with the Roguelike Archive project, and noticed this place is still plagued by that fake bullshitter, Krice, pretending to still be a developer. What a joke.
And yes these are personal attacks. Yes I'm telling him to fuck off. He can have his false moral high ground all he wants. You can check my history, this isn't the first time I've called him a dumb cunt. And somehow even I haven't been banned, or even warned to my recollection. It's unreal.
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but if you want an active forum, you can't have guys like Krice around.
At first I thought this is not worth even answering, but since there are people like you I might try to say something about this. You know, I'm just a regular user of this forum, there is nothing special about me. I can't make people leave, they make that decision themselves. My opinion about roguelikes is perfectly compatible with "Berlin interpretation" or any sane one regarding what a roguelike is. The real irony here is that you are making a personal attack based on nothing, not me. I never attack the person, only what he claims about roguelikes or any other subject.
Look at this smug horseshit. Totally innocent. Lol. Everyone else must be wrong I guess.
And to the poster above, who referred to Krice as more of an acquired taste, that's not how you run a forum. Unfortunately. Many new people won't get passed his bullshit, and no new people means no forum. It slowly withers.
It just makes me so sad this nonsense is still going on. I probably posted here thousands of times.
No need to ban me Slash, if that's something you do. I'll see about deleting this account, or otherwise not be back.
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and no new people means no forum. It slowly withers.
This has been happening to the genre as well, but "more" people and messages don't always equal to something better. We do have Reddit's RL dev which is quite bad. It seems like most people are using roguelikes as a weird kind of "brand" to sell their small action games. Game development has become much more money driven than it was before, because even indie developers think about money first and then what kind of games they try to do. However I really believe that roguelike genre is not going to disappear, there are still people who are doing this because they like it. Not because they want money or they have to be in a social media bubble where everything is positive to the point where the actual thing is lost.
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Hey Krice, when are we expecting a new Kaduria release?
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Hey Krice, when are we expecting a new Kaduria release?
If you think positively, then next year. As I'm writing this I'm creating a unified bug/feature list. It's going to be fun. I need to focus more, it's not a secret.
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And to the poster above, who referred to Krice as more of an acquired taste, that's not how you run a forum. Unfortunately. Many new people won't get passed his bullshit, and no new people means no forum. It slowly withers.
It seems to me he's being treated like a scapegoat. It is somebody to blame, but I doubt he makes that much of a difference.
While looking for more roguelike discussion to read, I found 4chan had some relatively active threads on /vg/.
So if discussion can survive there, I doubt this one guy is enough to scare everyone alive away from the site.
I've also noticed some roguelike discussion on the rpg codex, which isn't known for being that polite either.
There are whole sites full of people like him out there.
The thing is, even they don't want to be here.
What is the common denominator then?
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What is the common denominator then?
Maybe it's bad areas for discussion, because there doesn't seem to be any for "blog" type posts about your project. I was thinking to put something about issue list in Kaduria just so people can see what I'm doing at the moment. But where to post it? I think "Early Dev" is the only place, but somehow it doesn't sound right. Or maybe it is. I think the most active (maybe) area in RPG Codex is Codex Workshop where people twaddle about their projects and other people bash them as hard as they can.
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Early dev is fine.
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Early dev is fine.
I started to write about my current development in Codex Workshop just because I had it there. I think how areas are in this forum is part of the problem, no offence but...
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Most of the actual roguelike developers are here anyway, so that's me and about two other guys. I've followed reddit's RL dev and to be honest it's more for beginners. I think it's nice for them to have that kind of place to repeat the mistakes we made in the past. It's not about how "active" the forum is, I think we need to take it easy and focus on the actual development of roguelikes. If I can keep working on my projects (nothing is sure in long term) then eventually it will be a success of some kind.
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Most of the actual roguelike developers are here anyway, so that's me and about two other guys. I've followed reddit's RL dev and to be honest it's more for beginners. I think it's nice for them to have that kind of place to repeat the mistakes we made in the past. It's not about how "active" the forum is, I think we need to take it easy and focus on the actual development of roguelikes. If I can keep working on my projects (nothing is sure in long term) then eventually it will be a success of some kind.
There are some active developers here, and it is convenient to interact with them, which keeps me coming back.
I tend to ramble on and it usually bores people. Developers don't seem to mind when it's about their game though.
Even so, it is probably discouraging to just get feedback from one or two guys over several months.
I think the biggest problem is that most people want to talk about roguelikes within their preferred communities. There is no need for a community centered on roguelikes specifically anymore.
Here the only thing we have in common is an interest in roguelikes. But people prioritize being among their own kind and avoiding frustrating interactions with those from different internet cultures.
People want a consensus and are threatening to leave if they don't get it. Everyone likes to be told they are right, so it's only human. Before they just didn't have a choice. Now they have Reddit.
So the developers may cast a wide net to get attention, and are active on multiple sites, but people go where they feel comfortable.
And eventually, when there is nobody to play their games here, the few developers around will move on as well.
The only advantage I could see with this site is that they don't need to compete with the major roguelikes for attention.
For example, one of the problems I have reading 4chan threads is that most of the time they just talk about DCSS or TOME.
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People want a consensus and are threatening to leave if they don't get it.
This is the new millennial way to communicate. People live in a (social media) bubble and only talk to people who agree with them. I guess it was exactly the same when nazis didn't communicate with jews and they were so alienated to each other they didn't even think those others would be people just like them.
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People want a consensus and are threatening to leave if they don't get it.
To be clear, regarding the history of this place, the only "consensus" anyone has ever demanded here, is to not have to tolerate racist, sexist and generally condescending bullshit. This is not really something it's possible to "agree to disagree" about – the consensus that did implicitly get established, is that women, gays etc. are only welcome as long as they accept verbal abuse at random intervals. I know a few people left because of this. I for one am not happy about the situation.
At the moment, though, I think the Temple's biggest problem is the unchecked presence of bots. It's becoming more and more difficult to use the forum. The off topics section is one big joke at the moment.
As always,
Minotauros
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is that women, gays etc. are only welcome as long as they accept verbal abuse at random intervals.
How would you know if anyone is a woman or gay in here? Where do you people even get ideas like that. Besides, luckily we are pretty safe from women, because they don't make roguelikes. For whatever reason, you tell me, you seem to be the expert here on that subject.
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The issue isn't whether this or that particular user belongs to a certain demographics, but whether stupid shit like the message I'm currently replying to is par or not. And, well, I know people have left because of toxic comments since they've explicitly said so. That said, I wasn't trying to single you out, Krice, though I can see why you seen to think so, given the amount of inane stuff you've written here over the years.
As always,
Minotauros
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Hey, just to end on a less grinchy note, hope all of y'all are having happy peaceful days (yup, I've had my Irish coffee now).
As always,
Minotauros
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I know people have left because of toxic comments since they've explicitly said so.
They can say whatever they want, wont make it true. Saying something is "toxic" means nothing, that's why you can't have a real conversation with these.. people. They don't have real arguments or even motivation to interact with you like normal people would. All they want is promote their game and force everyone to agree with them.
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Saying something is "toxic" means nothing
It actually does, though, even if the term is clicheed and not seldomly misused (I'll grant you that). You're making the same mistake that many other, less than averagely gifted nerds have made before you, namely to assume that anything that falls outside your scope of comprehension is either stupid or meaningless.
Anyway, I don't think this is a very fruitful discussion, and I seem to recall having had it once or twice with you before ;) I certainly won't dictate how this place should be moderated, and personally somewhat like the fact that temple threads are allowed to go their natural course. I also get that you're half joking a lot of the time, but I can't blame people who feel they've better things to do with their time than getting randomly trolled online.
As always,
Minotauros
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the consensus that did implicitly get established, is that women, gays etc. are only welcome as long as they accept verbal abuse at random intervals
That can't be the consensus if we are arguing over it right now. It can't be the consensus when half of the opinions I've read are calling for stricter moderation.
But if this becomes the consensus, it is only because it's opponents are leaving to make it so. I would rather they stay, but the issue is they don't want to argue.
They just want satisfaction. Instead of complaining, they can now go somewhere else to actually get it. There are already places that exist that are:
1.More popular
2.Hold their consensus
3.Have roguelike discussion
I don't think it's limited to political views either. I remember someone here threatening to leave if roguelites were not excluded from the site.
In fact, this whole issue over the definition of a roguelike. People seem opposed to even having the argument, and why? We had it and nothing bad happened.
It was not fruitless and it was not toxic. It was a discussion on a discussion board. That's all it needs to be.
I am sick of always hearing one side of the story everywhere I go.
We don't have to all get along. Usually I'm glad that we don't.
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You're making the same mistake that many other, less than averagely gifted nerds have made before you
Really. We are going into this? What was your roguelike project again? I can't remember everyone, but I think you were not even a game developer yourself. So you got pretty large mouth in that sense.
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I remember someone here threatening to leave if roguelites were not excluded from the site.
That's really not what I was talking about, but since you mention it, the user you're thinking about would probably be Krice, who has been whining about this for years. I'm personally fine with that; what I find distressing is the fact that blatantly racist and sexist comments (from several users) have been met with no other consequence than the occasional pushback from other users. I'd love to live in a world where we could be welcoming of everyone, including bigots, but I'm afraid reality simply doesn't work that way.
What was your roguelike project again? I can't remember everyone, but I think you were not even a game developer yourself. So you got pretty large mouth in that sense.
Not that it's my responsibility to do your research, but yes, I did finish one roguelike in addition to my current unfinished hobby project, which is also publicly available. Gamedev is not my primary creative endeavor, though, as I've been busy publishing several critically acclaimed books to feed myself and my family. In the meantime, you released Teemu, which was a pretty cute miniature crpg. You may not remember that I was one of the few people who payed any attention to that? I liked the fact that it included hattifnatter and disguising yourself as a pirate, but seeing as how it has zero replay value and no emergent/procedural content, I found it pretty rich that you of all people released that to the rl community. So in answer to your question: No, I'm not horribly saddened or insulted by the fact that you can't be bothered to keep up with the rest of the rl community. You can come back and talk about meritocracy when you've released Kaduria, okay?
As always,
Minotauros
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You can come back and talk about meritocracy when you've released Kaduria, okay?
You don't seem to understand that it wont change anything about this forum and the way we disagree with alleged "toxicity". Pseudo-arguments like that are much more common in other social media, not in forums, so it's even difficult to understand why someone would force it in here. Maybe it's because you are an american, everything weird seems to come from there.
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Pseudo-arguments like that […] it's even difficult to understand why someone would force it in here.
Well, you're the one who brought it up, so you tell me, I guess? You really are making a complete ass of yourself.
As always.
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Well, you're the one who brought it up, so you tell me, I guess? You really are making a complete ass of yourself.
I'll tell you what, there is no "toxic" stuff here so you might go to somewhere else, some social media where it exists in the twisted minds of people like you.
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Teemu, which was a pretty cute miniature crpg.
According to Berlin interpretation, Teemu has 7/9 of "high value factors" as roguelike which I find hilarious. In my opinion the current release version of Teemu is a roguelike-style adventure game. It doesn't yet have a RPG system (only very simple one).
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no other consequence than the occasional pushback from other users.
That seems like a fair exchange to me, but what do I know?
This really isn't something we can just "agree to disagree" on.
For my own sanity though, I'm just glad the people looking for stricter moderation didn't get their way. It's still too bad they won't be staying.
As for whoever would benefit from that strict moderation, what I should say is, I owe them about as much consideration as they would make for me.
Seeing how I've enjoyed most of the discussions we've had so far, I would rather nobody step in to interrupt them for what I see as unnecessary.
I would also rather not risk getting banned in the event that I would disagree with an authority figure. I'd rather not even have it on my mind.
If the current situation is not meant to last, one way or another, then that's life.
Until then, I can't complain. I'm pretty happy with how things have been handled.
I hope your friends come around. They probably wont, but really that's all I can offer.
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According to Berlin interpretation, Teemu has 7/9 of "high value factors" as roguelike which I find hilarious. In my opinion the current release version of Teemu is a roguelike-style adventure game.
In defense of the Berlin int , I think it works better when applied in good faith rather than to prove the roguelikeness of eg. Minesweeper. Thus the definition text states that factors like exploration and permadeath (in the RL sense) relies on random generation to work. I haven't played the latest version of Teemu, though, so can't say anything about that.
As always,
Minotauros