Author Topic: The Temple is crumbling down...  (Read 33609 times)

Krice

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2019, 07:03:57 AM »
Fail to mention, roguelikes are an old genre

RPGs are older. What it has to do with anything?

Vosvek

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2019, 08:22:52 AM »
Fail to mention, roguelikes are an old genre

RPGs are older. What it has to do with anything?

Poor wording on my behalf. I mean to say that (1) traditional Roguelikes are a niche and are not popular with 'the youth', (2) that people who are not 'the youth' have shit to do in the real world, (3) that 'the youth' have a lot more free time to waste on using forums, (4) this forum really only supports traditional Roguelikes (whose prime audience is busy people), and therefore (5) it will always have limited activity... unless a traditional Roguelike takes the world by storm. If that makes more sense? It's an assumption that could be very wrong, I'll admit. And I certainly don't mean it in an offensive way.

And yes, RPGs are older, but at least RPG Codex facilitates a space for those who like Skyrim vs. those who think Baldur's Gate was God's gift and anything that isn't made using the Infinity Engine is not a true RPG. If those people had their way, RPG Codex would be as quiet as this forum, especially if it focused primarily on the developers and the development of those puritan classic RPGs.

Krice

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2019, 08:43:44 AM »
If those people had their way, RPG Codex would be as quiet as this forum

Then again, what is wrong with being a quiet forum or a small game genre? There is less noise for sure. I think people who are wondering those things are asking the wrong question.

I like that roguelike genre is focused and small. It is for reasons: both making and playing roguelikes is hard. Much harder than other genres (with some exceptions). That's the point. Don't miss it.

Vosvek

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2019, 09:10:21 AM »
If those people had their way, RPG Codex would be as quiet as this forum

Then again, what is wrong with being a quiet forum or a small game genre? There is less noise for sure. I think people who are wondering those things are asking the wrong question.

I like that roguelike genre is focused and small. It is for reasons: both making and playing roguelikes is hard. Much harder than other genres (with some exceptions). That's the point. Don't miss it.

There's nothing wrong with it. If there was, I wouldn't be here. But the post is titled "The Temple is crumbling down" with musings as to why there's only a few people remaining. I'm trying to offer potential reasons is all, not guidance. :D

I agree once more. I wouldn't be here otherwise. But put that into the perspective of: this forum will probably never get busy again; it's not a failing, but rather time and people have largely moved on. It happens.

I joined because I've enjoyed open world RPGs for years and wanted to know what one could achieve using a terminal as an interface to help motivate myself to keep programming (also, graphics are expensive, and its a life goal of mine to make an RPG), only to discover a genre and set of games I never expected to enjoy, and people that I respect and admire or find interesting or insightful. :)

jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2019, 10:16:26 AM »

That is why I emphasize the importance of the "dungeon" in defining the genre. A roguelike game revolves largely around the dungeon, if the developers admit it or not.
Tetris has no dungeon, Sim-city has no dungeon, minecraft has no dungeon, dwarf fortress has no dungeon, but "immortal redneck" still does.


Here's the issue with putting emphasis on dungeons: There are open world roguelikes such as Elona, neoscavenger and the likes that fit the definition of roguelike better than immortal redneck. Hell minecraft actually does have dungeons. I'd say minecraft is more of a roguelike than immortal redneck.
Neither count.

Then there's also the fact that in oldschool IVAN(idk about the current build) you used to be able to use the run and kick commands to train leg strength. You could also steal the bananas by kicking them away from the drop/harvest tile then picking them up thus allowing you to just train leg strength until you got strong enough to just beat the shit outta everyone in the starting slave encampment. That means a classic roguelike had a completion path that allowed for a no-dungeon run. By your own standards, your own standards defy themselves
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 01:47:55 PM by jofadda »

Troubler

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2019, 12:32:31 AM »

That is why I emphasize the importance of the "dungeon" in defining the genre. A roguelike game revolves largely around the dungeon, if the developers admit it or not.
Tetris has no dungeon, Sim-city has no dungeon, minecraft has no dungeon, dwarf fortress has no dungeon, but "immortal redneck" still does.


Here's the issue with putting emphasis on dungeons: There are open world roguelikes such as Elona, neoscavenger and the likes that fit the definition of roguelike better than immortal redneck. Hell minecraft actually does have dungeons. I'd say minecraft is more of a roguelike than immortal redneck.
Neither count.

Then there's also the fact that in oldschool IVAN(idk about the current build) you used to be able to use the run and kick commands to train leg strength. You could also steal the bananas by kicking them away from the drop/harvest tile then picking them up thus allowing you to just train leg strength until you got strong enough to just beat the shit outta everyone in the starting slave encampment. That means a classic roguelike had a completion path that allowed for a no-dungeon run. By your own standards, your own standards defy themselves
The randomly generated dungeons in Elona are the only thing that define it as a roguelike for me.
Imagine if all of those dungeons were handcrafted instead. I would disagree with calling it a roguelike then.
As for more open-world games like minecraft, I admit there is some potential for genre-overlap with the presence of dungeons in survival games.
It is then an issue of how much of the gameplay those dungeons make up.  That becomes more messy, and I don't have a simple answer for it yet.
Right now I would just call those roguelike sections in a survival game. Like platforming sections in a FPS, or driving sections in a platformer, etc.

As for IVAN, kicking items to steal them is an exploit, so I don't think it counts.
Also while I don't know how viable that strategy actually is, it is regardless too cryptic to define the entire game by.

I don't know anything about neoscavenger, but it looks like more of a survival game to me.
Though like I said above, that gets tricky for me if there are "dungeons" throughout.

Quote from: Krice
I find this interesting, because what we think things (like roguelikes) are is different than reality. In most cases. It's a bigger issue in today's world and in a weird way it's showing in this, too. Imagine if people were logical about this. Then we would not even have this discussion, everyone would know what a roguelike is, without "interpretations" from some random people who think they are the authority on the subject. And I think most people know what a roguelike is, but they are dishonest.
I don't think it is so simple. When I think of roguelikes, the first thing that comes to mind is the ASCII graphics. That is what caught my attention when I first saw Rogue as a teenager.
Though when I think things through some more, to define a roguelike by a cosmetic feature like that seems incorrect. Particularly when I remember that the real reason for it is technical limitations.
After that I try to find a "proper" way to define what a roguelike is for myself, and I have never had trouble defining things like Spelunky as roguelikes, but then I've never seen anything to lose including them either.
It was always more of an issue of trying to understand what exactly I am talking about when I say "roguelike" all the time. I want to have an idea in my head that is based on something solid and not just my nostalgia.

But it is a big assumption to think other people put the same emotional weight on certain aspects of a genre. Steam users probably do not register much of a reaction to ASCII for example.
I have spent a lot of time playing roguelikes, but only recently am so lucky to get to talk about them to this extent. I am usually surprised with how little weight some of you put on the dungeon, where it is the only criteria for me.

jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2019, 04:27:03 AM »
The trouble is that Immortal Redneck does not bear any semblance to rogue, nor the other genre defining titles whereas Neoscavenger does. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier to roguelikes we're then excluding some actual roguelikes in favor of allowing games like Immortal Redneck, when Immortal Redneck fits less than the open world roguelikes such as Unreal World, Neoscavenger and Ragnarok that are roguelikes. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier we're then expected to kick out every open world game regardless of whether it actually fits.

Immortal Redneck, Minecraft, Organ Trail, Domina etc do not fit as they dont have the feel of a roguelike, there's little tact and in the case of all 4 any "permadeath" aspect is limpwristed at best while they do not play otherwise like anything else properly assigned within the genre.

Krice

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2019, 06:47:14 AM »
I don't think it is so simple. When I think of roguelikes, the first thing that comes to mind is the ASCII graphics.

Some roguelikes like Nethack has tiles version. It's still the same game. If you really think about it, ascii is also tiles. It's graphics, just simpler.

Troubler

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2019, 11:59:26 PM »
The trouble is that Immortal Redneck does not bear any semblance to rogue, nor the other genre defining titles whereas Neoscavenger does. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier to roguelikes we're then excluding some actual roguelikes in favor of allowing games like Immortal Redneck, when Immortal Redneck fits less than the open world roguelikes such as Unreal World, Neoscavenger and Ragnarok that are roguelikes. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier we're then expected to kick out every open world game regardless of whether it actually fits.

Immortal Redneck, Minecraft, Organ Trail, Domina etc do not fit as they dont have the feel of a roguelike, there's little tact and in the case of all 4 any "permadeath" aspect is limpwristed at best while they do not play otherwise like anything else properly assigned within the genre.
I have been questioning the importance of permadeath. One of the games you mentioned earlier, Elona, does not have permadeath for example.
Though the dungeons are still randomized, so it still seems to come off as "roguelike" enough as a result.
I think it illustrates another example of how this is the most fundamental aspect of the genre.

Again, for me there is a grey area between the survival and roguelike genre, because of the dungeons often included in those games. Though no, I don't consider Unreal-world a "true" roguelike due to the lack of them.
There is no dungeon to traverse towards a goal. There is an infinite plain of resources placed about randomly, with a few obstacles, but this is more like a "wilderness" than a "dungeon".
There is scoring based on mastery of skills and exploration iirc, but it is largely vestigial. I don't think most people play for score or compete over who can grind up the skills.

I think I have heard of it's very early states being a roguelike with orcs and other fantasy elements, but at some point it had turned entirely into a realistic survival game.
This is not wrong, and the game is better for the change, but I think there is little gameplay that I would consider "roguelike" left in it as a result.
Again, this is just my opinion, and I admit that survival games put a strain on my definition.

As for Immortal Redneck, you say it has no semblance to Rogue, but I've reached Winter playing Cataclysm DDA and most of the gameplay now is loading/unloading cars and building walls.
I don't really consider most of what goes on in that game something like "Roguelike" gameplay, it is survival on an infinite plain with resources. That is a "wilderness", not a "dungeon", most of the time.
Meanwhile in Immortal Redneck or Spelunky the entire game seems to revolve around progressing through the randomized "dungeon" to a goal.
As far as I am concerned, that fundamentally makes them roguelike, beyond a doubt from me.

And like I said in my last post, at the end of the day it just depends on what emotional weight you put on what "characteristic" of the genre.
No one is really the same in this regard. I do not put much weight at all on turns or tiles, these things do not change the fundamental gameplay.
Think about chess. Competitive players are often playing by a timer, which limits how long they can consider things, but the game itself is the same.

Quote from: Krice
Some roguelikes like Nethack has tiles version. It's still the same game. If you really think about it, ascii is also tiles. It's graphics, just simpler.
That reminds me of something.

Though I said ASCII in Rogue was just cosmetic, I was wrong, it actually wasn't entirely. This is something I've discovered pretty recently when I tried the "Lets beat rogue" thing.
I wanted to open up Rogue to mess with how enemies spawned as an experiment, but it was not just a "at level 3 start putting ants" kind of thing like I expected to find.
You might notice that Rogue's dungeon is 26 levels deep, and the bestiary is 26 monsters large. These are both the size of the alphabet, and spawns are based on this.
Spawns are not written out for each level but based on a global rule that works with an array of 26 elements. It is kind of difficult to put into words.

Spinoffs did not follow this rule as far as I know, and it is easy not to notice, but it is there and makes a big difference in what the developer can do. Like a haiku does for a poet.
In an alternate reality people could have noticed this strange mechanic and taken it to heart, and we would be arguing "Should there only be 26 monsters in a roguelike?"

As for nethack, the tiles can still throw you off for a reason similar to this.
The orb and the scroll of genocide both work through characters, but if you use tiles like I did then this will confuse you.
Though that is very minor compared to the issue with Rogue. I also remember reading from a few oldschool Nethack players they didn't like the "new" colored display.
Colors in the display allow for an exponentially larger bestiary, and tiles allow for an even larger one. But if we follow Rogue's "Alphabet only" rule, what you can add is very restricted.
I also remember reading concerns from the developers of Cataclysm DDA about adding monsters because of the limited amount of character/color options they had for players who do not use tiles.

Vosvek

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2019, 01:25:03 AM »
I for one believe we've all been living a lie, for Roguelikes are simply a digitised Gygax/Arneson white/red D&D... dungeon crawling, permadeath, turn-based, grid-based, abstracted gameplay through stats + RNG, generative/emergent world building, usually medieval/historical fantasy themed...  ;)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2019, 01:41:22 AM by Vosvek »

akeley

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2019, 07:24:10 AM »
A lot of people say this kind of thing with the assumption that authority will fall on their side, but I think your post could be seen as pretty abrasive itself, no less so than what Krice normally says.
Not that there is anything wrong with being abrasive. I just want to emphasize that strict moderation and a "civil" community would not necessarily translate into a more pleasant environment.
Ah, the predictable, template strawman defence of "but you're rude yourself!" - as if you really failed to comprehend that my abrasiveness stems strictly from exasperation at the situation here and as if couple of posts equalled hundreds. This has been going on for many many years, I myself quit discussions on this form in 2016, so have some perspective. You also handily avoid the crux of my argument: "... it is NOT about disagreeing [...] it is about being a c**t when disagreeing ...".
Not to mention the fact that obviously civil discussion and stricter moderation does translate to a more pleasant environment. Unless our definitions of "pleasant" vary wildly.

On any normal forum Krice would be kicked out to the curb long time ago, and it has nothing to do with some edgy (read: tedious, with added bonus of semi-coherent) opinions. We all have them, it's fine.  I'm talking about using ad hominem profanities and repetitive BS spamming which in some cases could constitute as harrasement. That on top of unrelated occasional homophobic/misogynistic/racist musings.

And the real problem is not one sad individual  - we're on teh intehnets after all - but the fact that this behaviour was/is tolerated by the staff and often enabled - if not downright supported - by the regulars here. Or rather, some sort of skeleton crew, if we're talking about present day, pun unintended. The difference when I joined this board was that it was populated by numerous quality posters who, while also edgy & opinionated managed to conduct themselves without resorting to base behaviour and were able to construct logical arguments. They were also quick to shoo the troll away. Sadly, they all seem to have disappeared over the years - leaving this place in a grotesque situation where the only real, if unoffical, mod is a toxic hater. A true "Protector of the @", you couldn't make this up :)

It's quite paradoxical for me to admit that reddit - which, alongside assorted - I previously thought a breeding ground for this kinda of behaviour - actually wins here and now the r/roguelikes is the only place which could be called a home of the roguelike community. Sure, you can see heated arguments but ones which are either conducted in civilised fashion or either quickly put down by others or the mods, who are fairly active. And it does a good job of keeping the classic RL spirit alive. Sadly, it suffers from flash-in-the-pan syndrome, the voting nonsense, and is no match for forums as a medium, and this is why it'd be nice to be able to reclaim this one.

Judging by the hilarious way how this thread turned into yet another inane and pointless anti-rogulite/what-is-a-roguelike ramble it was partially supposed to mock, with the OP being told to take his whining elsewhere in the first reply, it's not happening anytime soon though :)

@Slash & getter77: I wish you well and respect the work you put in this far but the truth is that unless you make some substantial changes this place will at best remain what it is now - which is not good at all - or at worst just die completely. Which, on reflection, perhaps would be for the better, as much as it pains me to say so.

Krice

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2019, 10:17:02 AM »
That on top of unrelated occasional homophobic/misogynistic/racist musings.

It takes a SJW level to interpret something I said like that. Don't be that guy. I think what has happened in many forums is that there is exactly one way to look at things and everything else is removed (it could be called a "social media bubble"). For example critical views on monetizing games and using roguelike as marketing scheme: most developers (and moderators) are in that wagon themselves, they can't be critical about it! Everyone is just cheering each other's game projects and trying to create visibility to get more customers to buy their game. Critical comments are suppressed as "toxic". I love this world.

Troubler

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2019, 09:17:38 AM »
Ah, the predictable, template strawman defence of "but you're rude yourself!" - as if you really failed to comprehend that my abrasiveness stems strictly from exasperation at the situation here and as if couple of posts equalled hundreds. This has been going on for many many years, I myself quit discussions on this form in 2016, so have some perspective. You also handily avoid the crux of my argument: "... it is NOT about disagreeing [...] it is about being a c**t when disagreeing ...".
Not to mention the fact that obviously civil discussion and stricter moderation does translate to a more pleasant environment. Unless our definitions of "pleasant" vary wildly.
Everyone has their reasons for being rude to others. People have different experiences that they use to justify their actions.
What makes them feel justified is subjective then, so it is difficult to convince somebody that their justification is incorrect.
At least while trying not to to come off as ultimately self-serving, as often is the case in these kind of interactions.
And I think that this is the situation for you and me both.

There are some aspects of your last post which are incongruant with your current argument, particularly considering your choice of profanity.
How you justify that to yourself and how your post comes off to others are different things, but you are taking your personal justification as granted.
That is why this is not just a "no u" type of argument. This is a pretty appropriate (and lucky) example to help illustrate my point right away.
In this case you had already justfied your behavior to yourself, regardless of if you offended anyone else.
Just like Krice you have disregarded if what you had said has made anyone uncomfortable.

I doubt that our definitions of pleasant are really all that different. But it comes off like you are expecting to be uneffected by the "less pleasant" side of your strict proposal.
Like if it is not happening to you, it shouldn't matter. That's for Krice or bad people like him to deal with. It's just like "might makes right" but with a twist. Using force just works.
Their positions don't matter. In the end that "civility" is just dominance, because what is the point of lowering yourself to rudeness when you can just remove your competition?
You can just "kick them to the curb" with a smile on your face and a feeling of smug indifference. Answering for it doesn't matter because those who disagree are helpless.
What is civil and pleasant for one party is seldom for everyone. Only later, when lacking the force that they have grown dependant on, is the dominant party is undone.

Maybe in the past people would "shoo the troll", but now that they are all gone you are left on equal footing with it.
So now what? Rudeness is no more justified than it would have been before. Krice too was labled as a troll, which seems rude to me, but that hasn't stopped him.
Rude posts shouldn't stop you either. Considering the strong reaction you have presented I am confident you can stomach them. But you come off like that is beneath you.

Of course, there is nothing wrong with thinking it is not worth your time.
But I still disagree with your proposal on moderation.

Krice

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2019, 10:20:53 AM »
That's for Krice or bad people like him

Aw, that's cute. Weird thing are people like you and akeley who hang out in the forum and you don't even make roguelikes and possibly don't even play them. It's always those guys who start to point fingers at someone, because they have some problems or whatever. It's like they expect everyone to think and be like they are, nothing else is accepted. People like you have serious problems understanding life and other people, that's why you always attack someone, trying to blame everything on them.

Troubler

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2019, 04:22:58 PM »
That's for Krice or bad people like him

Aw, that's cute. Weird thing are people like you and akeley who hang out in the forum and you don't even make roguelikes and possibly don't even play them. It's always those guys who start to point fingers at someone, because they have some problems or whatever. It's like they expect everyone to think and be like they are, nothing else is accepted. People like you have serious problems understanding life and other people, that's why you always attack someone, trying to blame everything on them.
Actually I was defending you there.
I forget sarcasm doesn't always translate well into text.