Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Announcements => Other Announcements => Topic started by: bencollver on January 24, 2014, 01:26:01 PM
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"Randomly got Tales of Maj'Eyal from Steam and really enjoying it!"
https://plus.google.com/+FeliciaDay/posts/PWuGAWUqFof (https://plus.google.com/+FeliciaDay/posts/PWuGAWUqFof)
+1 for the RNG,
-Ben
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Wow a random person with two X chromosomes and nothing worthwhile to say likes a video game. Let's all celebrate this. BACK TO GRINDING!
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Felicia Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felicia_Day) is the creator of The Guild, a funny TV show about gamers. Her talents go way beyond having a specific chromosomal arrangement.
-Ben
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Yeah man. Big fan of Felicia day. She's probably not the vacuous tool bag that, say, Snookie or the Kardashians play on TV.
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Here's the full endorsement:
"Friendly game recc: Randomly got Tales of Maj'Eyal from Steam and really enjoying it! There are tons of rogue-like games out there now that I get bored with quickly, but this one has amazing class customization and loot. Hard, but not frustrating, in-depth and RPG elements are super fun. You unlock classes and races as you level, so even if you die a lot there's more fun to be had replaying. Kinda like Dungeons of Dredmore, if you played that?
You can download it for free, and it's open source on their website, which is cool too. But grab it off Steam or donate on the website if you can, it's nice to support the devs! BACK TO GRINDING!"
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Wait.. Is this another girl "gamer" getting paid for advertising anything?
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Wow a random person with two X chromosomes and nothing worthwhile to say likes a video game. Let's all celebrate this. BACK TO GRINDING!
Wait.. Is this another girl "gamer" getting paid for advertising anything?
In case you didn't know: nearly half of all "gamers" are female. Felicia has (or at least had) several maxed out WOW characters, wrote The Guild, is a producer for several YouTube shows on board games and video games, has mentioned her childhood playing video games in arcades and at home on the Amiga and NES, and spends a lot of time introducing others to games and gaming in general.
I think praising TOME and roguelikes is something worth saying.
Do you have a serious objection to her trying to help the roguelike community or is it a knee-jerk reaction to someone you know nothing about?
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Wait.. Is this another girl "gamer" getting paid for advertising anything?
Yeah, I'm sure DarkGod payed that girl to advertise TOME...
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Yeah man. Big fan of Felicia day. She's probably not the vacuous tool bag that, say, Snookie or the Kardashians play on TV.
I'm not a big fan. IMO she just overacts a generic not-unattractive geek girl role in everything.
However, on the positive side, she is very popular and her endorsement can only be good for both TOME and roguelikes. So good for her.
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In case you didn't know: nearly half of all "gamers" are female. Felicia has (or at least had) several maxed out WOW characters, wrote The Guild, is a producer for several YouTube shows on board games and video games, has mentioned her childhood playing video games in arcades and at home on the Amiga and NES, and spends a lot of time introducing others to games and gaming in general.
I think praising TOME and roguelikes is something worth saying.
Do you have a serious objection to her trying to help the roguelike community or is it a knee-jerk reaction to someone you know nothing about?
I never said anything about Felicia Day being fake.
Her "praise" for roguelikes was that they're boring until they get unlocks and grinding like all those other genres that have already been ruined. I object to that. I'd rather roguelikes receive no exposure at all than get that kind of praise.
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Gamer of some renown likes a game and publicly endorses it.
"Bitch you ain't in the cool club."
Ha!
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Felicia has (or at least had) several maxed out WOW characters
WoW is not a game, it more like a doll simulator where you get to dress your characters. That's why girls mostly like it, because their characters look fab.
Girl gamers are more like that, they play WoW, minecraft and other non-games, then set up social media to get views, likes and advertising options. (read: money). They get money just by being beautiful girls, sort of like social media models.
Tome getting media coverage means nothing to roguelikes. It's like.. I don't even know how to describe this bullshit in words. I think women try to ruin even games from us. Well they are not going to succeed if I can do something about it and I will. My roguelikes will be ridiculously esoteric with tons of keyboard commands and ancient UI. And crappy graphics. And no sound or music. Nothing that can possibly be advertised.
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krice, i'm a girl gamer and i've never done anything to take away your precious games? please repspect our gender
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The kind of girl "gamers" I'm talking about are those who just have to add that GIRL in gamer and point it out. How often do you hear us say we are boy gamers (that sounds a bit gay..).
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Here's Wil Wheaton recommending Dreadmor: https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568 (https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568)
I trust you guys will shower him with an equal level of disapproval?
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Wil "Boy Gamer" Wheaton.
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If Will "boy gaymer" Wheaton weren't a dude we wouldn't even notice him. Why is it every time a hot manly man shows up it turns into a huge circus. God you roguelike sissies need to get out more. Gawl. :-*
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Here's Wil Wheaton recommending Dreadmor: https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568 (https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568)
I trust you guys will shower him with an equal level of disapproval?
I certainly would if someone made a thread saying "Wil Wheaton says he likes a roguelike! Wow!"
Felicia Day can say whatever she wants. I don't care. It's the the celebrity worship that bothers me. People don't care about what Felicia Day says because she has any particular knowledge or because what she said was interesting or worthwhile in any way. They care because it was Felicia Day-sama who said it.
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If Will "boy gaymer" Wheaton weren't a dude we wouldn't even notice him.
We didn't until he was brought up to prove a point.
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Vangard, this thread started as a positive message. I hesitate to respond, but for the record, Felicia Day's post is more substantial than you make it out to be. She discusses specific aspects of Tome 4's game mechanics that make it fun. You dismissed all that and focused instead on her gender and sign-off message about grinding. We all have different tastes, and you needn't be bothered by what others say and think. You have the liberty to be more fun and friendly, and I invite you to try it.
-Ben
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We all have different tastes, and you needn't be bothered by what others say and think. You have the liberty to be more fun and friendly, and I invite you to try it.
This is good advice that I don't follow nearly as much as I should.
With that said, it's still stupid to place more value on a celebrity/woman's opinion because they are a celebrity/woman.
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Wow. The sexism in this thread is...completely unnecessary? But sadly not that surprising...
I didn't see the OP as saying her opinion was more valid or getting excited because she's a woman. But considering roguelikes are generally a pretty niche genre, it is kind of cool to see someone famous posting about a roguelike (an ACTUAL roguelike, too, not just a "roguelikelike" such as FTL or Isaac) especially someone famous for talking a lot about games. Doesn't mean her opinion is more valid, but let's face it, famous people's endorsements carry weight with a lot of people (that's why they're so many commercials), so chances are it'll expose the game/genre to more people who otherwise wouldn't have even heard of it, let alone been interested.
Of course, there's certainly some people around here who would see more people coming in as a bad thing, that a bunch of people who aren't "real" roguelike fans (or god forbid just a bunch of girls who like to play with dolls) will somehow dilute the brand, but if you like to play roguelikes, more attention on them is a good thing because it means people will be more likely to make them to tap into that market. If you like to make roguelikes, it's even better because the potential players for your game increases.
So, anyway, thanks for posting this, bencollver.
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With that said, it's still stupid to place more value on a celebrity/woman's opinion because they are a celebrity/woman.
Sure, but it's equally stupid to completely dismiss a celebrity/woman's opinion because they are a celebrity/woman.
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The original character in rogue, was a woman named Rodney.
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Sure, but it's equally stupid to completely dismiss a celebrity/woman's opinion because they are a celebrity/woman.
Agreed. You wait and see if they say something worthwhile or if they just go "BACK TO GRINDING!" and then dismiss.
Maybe the OP's original intention was let us all know that Tome and roguelikes are getting some extra exposure. I read it as "someone said something insipid but we should care because she is Felicia Day."
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What if I would say those things about Tome? Everyone would say I'm a moron and don't know anything about the subject. But when a pretty girl says so it's suddenly clever. Yeah, like, right.
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More to the point, if you did and then someone posted a thread about it entitled "Krice endorses Tome 4" no one would think it was worthwhile.
But again, I may have misinterpreted this thread's purpose.
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I'd just like to say thanks to the OP for posting this thread. When someone from outside of the roguelike community with a very popular following recommends an actual roguelike to the people who follow her, I think it's definitely something of note.
All this negativity and bickering is somewhat embarassing IMO.
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All this negativity and bickering is somewhat embarassing IMO.
Only if you are an american. They are not allowed to be negative. But all things considered, this thread has nothing to do with roguelikes and as such I shall retreat from this nonsensical discussion.
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[…] a doll simulator where you get to dress your characters […]
That, if anything, sounds like a RL to me ;)
As always,
Minotauros
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That, if anything, sounds like a RL to me ;)
If only you could see the gear and it would look fab. Then we would have a lot more women playing roguelikes. I think it's no accident that women like specific games like The Sims or Minecraft. They can't help it. It's the evolution we all know.
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Krice, you are an embarrassment to this community.
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What I'm telling is true. And what's more hilarious I believe there is still a huge market for games which women want to play. They have to settle for dressing part in WoW, because it was an accident! Developers of WoW never realized it's a big hit for women as well. If someone wants to make loads of money, create something character-centric like The Sims or WoW with minimum RPG features and multi-player with communication. You'll get all the money you can ever hope.
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Krice your demographic and motivation analysis for WoW is incorrect. The graphics have broad appeal and EVERYONE likes their gear to look cool. The ease of play and social aspect also has broad appeal. Not sure why I'm even responding, but I have several max level WoW characters so figure I had some expertise.
Also the notion that Blizzard doesn't know exactly what they are doing is just...yeah...
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The graphics have broad appeal and EVERYONE likes their gear to look cool. The ease of play and social aspect also has broad appeal.
Only true when you look at the statistics from the point of view where every player actually likes WoW and is playing it. I think it's somewhat different group of people than "traditional" players. Games (at least part of them in mainstream) have changed and also people who play them. Social aspect means nothing to me when talking about games.
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OMG, didn't check the temple for some days and I discover this thread.
This is true, this is an embarrassment to roguelike community. When somebody say a nice thing about you or your community you smile or say thanks you do not *bite the hand that feeds you*
Are you people out of your minds? That you like tome or not doesn't even matter, it's publicity for roguelikes; what's not to like?
As for miss Felicia Day, whether you like her or not, she is known and not for how she looks; she has made some awesome stuff online. You do not have to like what she does, but you have to respect it.
Or would you prefer we go back to the age of "roguelikes are dated and doomed, nobody plays them anymore" ? If not, you must realize that marketing, publicity and word-of-mouth is vital.
Oh and Krice, it is very rare when I get really angry at somebody but let me put it in simple words for you: your opinions about women is simply terrible, offencive and wrong; and I am not even a woman, I can hardly imagine how the ladies reading your posts must feel. Please go crawl back to your corner to develop the game you want nobody to play. Or maybe simply try to not insult half the world's population with every post.
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You do not have to like what she does, but you have to respect it.
I didn't knew who she was before this and I still don't know. I can't respect anyone I don't know. Her advertising didn't sound right at all. It sounded like coming from someone who don't actually know what roguelikes are. I might be wrong, but it sounded funny.
If not, you must realize that marketing, publicity and word-of-mouth is vital.
May be if you are selling something.
your opinions about women is simply terrible, offencive and wrong;
No it's not. I agree with the evolution on this one. Of course, it's a kind of generalization, because some women are good at playing roguelikes or whatever and they also play games that were aimed for male players. You know, anything with shooting, killing and that sort of stuff. But you simply can't deny the fact that women have selected specific type of games to play, such as The Sims, and that up until now male developers didn't really have a good idea what women want. There were some ridiculous attempts to create games for women that failed hard, because they had barbies (supposedly girly stuff) and other silly stuff without proper gameplay.
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Goddammit Krice.
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This thread has convinced me this board has nothing more worth hearing.
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... >:( ???
This was a pretty benign little spot of uncommon promotion for Roguelikes in the broader world---not an earthshaking event by any means, but a nicely surprising good one for ToME and Roguelikes in general in "a rising tide lifts all boats" kind of way. There's no cause for this sort of negativity and acrimony---the very notion of a contrarian cause is contrary to anything conducive. We are all diverse adults for the most part here...but a bit of empathy is well advised for everybody.
Communal shrinking in anathema to me, as we are not to be some damned well the likes of which can be poisoned just by introducing new elements into it---everybody is welcome here, should feel welcome, and generally be welcoming of their fellows as opposed to painting with a broad brush. It is that heavy-handed use of such broad brushing that has led to the Roguelike scene being discounted and very much brushed aside outright into dusty corners for years now---do not employ that from within to boot lest what gains there have been these past few years become needlessly troubled in an already harsh world.
TL, DR Put thought AND feeling into your posting people---be civil while engaged in debate and fall not into the trap of belligerence towards "other", for each of us IS "other".
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Men and women are different, no reason to argue about it. Maybe the average women plays The Sims, just like average men play FPS.
I think this kind of publicity from a female reviewer is great, maybe we will have more female players or developers, which will only help to diversify and improve the genre.
I can't respect anyone I don't know.
Here lies the problem.
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This thread has convinced me this board has nothing more worth hearing.
Meh...don't let Krice get you down.
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lol, you guys are so punk rock. "Celebrities suck, stop talking about our games, sell out! Go play with your dolls or sth! In WoW."
anyway, listen to the second most active guy on the forum, everyone: don't let the third and fourth most active guys get you down!
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This thread has convinced me this board has nothing more worth hearing.
This is as bad as any other post I've read in this thread. Tarring the board for some nonsense said in one thread, is ignoring the fact that the internet is full of nonsense. If you really meant this sentiment, you'd leave the internet.
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Please go crawl back to your corner to develop the game you want nobody to play.
On a related note, I'm including Krice on my 7DRL this year. It will be fun.
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This thread has convinced me this board has nothing more worth hearing.
This is as bad as any other post I've read in this thread. Tarring the board for some nonsense said in one thread, is ignoring the fact that the internet is full of nonsense. If you really meant this sentiment, you'd leave the internet.
some parts are fuller than others, though. between "not a real roguelike (fan)," "success is bad," and "women aren't interested in important things like weapons" from some of the loudest members of the board, you've got a thread which, even if not typical, exemplifies some issues. board meets world.
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You shouldn't take Krice as a prototype of this forum users; we have allowed him to live for centuries just because every dungeon needs a Troll, and we fight him from time to time in order to level up.
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On a related note, I'm including Krice on my 7DRL this year. It will be fun.
I saw a troll named "The Insulting Krice" in some game recently. LambdaRogue, maybe?
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some parts are fuller than others, though. between "not a real roguelike (fan)," "success is bad," and "women aren't interested in important things like weapons" from some of the loudest members of the board, you've got a thread which, even if not typical, exemplifies some issues. board meets world.
A diversity of opinions is healthy.
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A diversity of opinions is healthy.
I disagree.
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I shall retreat from this nonsensical discussion.
*Makes discussion even more nonsensical than it already was*
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some parts are fuller than others, though. between "not a real roguelike (fan)," "success is bad," and "women aren't interested in important things like weapons" from some of the loudest members of the board, you've got a thread which, even if not typical, exemplifies some issues. board meets world.
Wait a second! I'm the loudest one on this board! :-)
The internet is a dirty dirty place full of impolite things. You'll note the Roguelike discussion here is top notch but the other stuff can get wonky. Go check out Bay 12 if you want some really insulting behavior. This board is tame compared to most.
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A diversity of opinions is healthy.
I disagree.
Oh? Perhaps you can fill out these templates, so I know what opinions I should have in future. The best roguelike is [ INSERT OPINION HERE]. A roguelikelike is to roguelikes, as [INSERT OPINION HERE] is to [INSERT OPINION HERE]. When I think of roguelikelikelikes, it makes me think of [INSERT OPINION HERE]. When women play roguelikes, they most want to see [INSERT OPINION HERE]. :)
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Hah. chooseusername, it may seem you fell into one of Slash' little rhetorical traps. You disagreeing with his disagreeing that disagreements are ok … well, just carry on, I guess ;)
Still, it's an actual problem when the "diverse opinions" of a single board member serves to drive away several other people. That frankly doesn't fit my description of a sound and diverse discussion. And this isn't the first time someone quits the Temple altogether in the wake of one of these psudopolitical flame threads. It's all well to say people should develop thicker skin, but it's not as if we can disallow someone to feel offended by genuinely offensive behavior. Which is why there's such a thing as, your know, social norms for acceptable behavior.
Without intending to be more than just a little rude, I'd put more value in the continued presence of users who are here to discuss RLs, and for various reasons get discouraged by the kind of stupid, hateful discourse from which games should ideally offer some repose, rather than the bigoted ejaculations of *ahem* certain users. Krice is a nice enough guy in his own, twisted, Nordic way, and I don't personally mind him so much. (Excepting the occasional urge to f*ing strangle him!) But frankly, only about 10% of his posts manage to say anything more substantial than either: "I didn't even bother to try your game, because it sucks," or: "Science has proved that girls play with dolls."
I shall retreat from this nonsensical discussion.
*Makes discussion even more nonsensical than it already was*
You know, it's that old story ...
I shall not say I again, ever again, it's too farcical. I shall put in it's place, whenever I hear it, the third person, if I think of it.
As always,
Minotauros
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I think it would be better to accept what women are rather than trying to think they are like men. Which they obviously are not.
As a thought training: who do most women wear makeup? I mean, there is no need for that, women are already beautiful, more so than men. Why do they want to look more beautiful? Don't say it's because advertising or culture.
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For some of the same reasons men wear neckties, I guess. It's not as if we don't already look stupid without them. Your "analysis" is superficial and chauvinist. The fact that several female board members have berated your similar comments in the past should be a clue that your preconceived notions aren't so accurate.
As always,
Minotauros
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A diversity of opinions is healthy.
A diversity of opinions is healthy. But that doesn't mean you automatically have to respect every opinion no matter what it is.
"I prefer Nethack to Angband" is an opinion that should be accepted and respected. Maybe disagreed with, but it's a matter of taste. On this topic at hand, "I don't think it matters what famous people say," would be an OK opinion. "I don't really like Felicia Day" would be and OK opinion. "I disagree with her assessment of TOME or roguelikes in general." Those opinions aren't invalid, they should be respected, and they're something you can actually build a discussion around. More importantly, someone holding and expressing that opinion isn't doing any harm.
"Women aren't real gamers, they only like games about dressing up dolls" is, while not exactly the most harmful sexism that's ever been thrown around, is still not only sexist, but just plain incorrect. There are plenty of women who like a wide variety of games. And if some woman interested in playing or making roguelikes comes to this board and the first thing she sees is a long-standing member of the community making these kinds of comments, and everyone else "respecting his opinion," you think she's likely to want to stick around? Even if the basic premise is true that women generally like different kinds of games and certain types of games will never be broadly popular with women, that doesn't mean that no women will like them. I mean, we've got a freaking example of a woman who likes a roguelike in the first post in this thread!
When you're a niche genre that generally gets overlooked, ignored, or disliked (because of gameplay reasons) anyway, alienating entire groups of people is really not in your best interests.
People's "opinions" aren't some magical protected category. "Opinions" about other groups of people have been used to oppress those groups of people throughout history. Being intolerant of intolerance is not intolerance. Especially because, guess what? "Opinions" can be changed. Race, sexually or gender (generally) can't.
As a thought training: who do most women wear makeup? I mean, there is no need for that, women are already beautiful, more so than men. Why do they want to look more beautiful? Don't say it's because advertising or culture.
Seriously? "Why are things this way? And don't say the actual answer to why they're this way."
(By the way, men have used makeup in various cultures throughout history. And right now there's a growing trend in South Korea of men wearing makeup. Why are they doing that? Don't say it's because advertising or culture.)
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Hah. chooseusername, it may seem you fell into one of Slash' little rhetorical traps. You disagreeing with his disagreeing that disagreements are ok … well, just carry on, I guess ;)
I was replying to his perhaps rhetorical reply, with something equally rhetorical. :)
I think at some point, all the fuss which has been made here over what has been said which is disagreeable, builds up that disagreeable thing and we end up with a pile on which makes more and more of it.
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The other day I actually played a roguelike and I couldn't tell if my '@' symbol had a wiener or vagina, or both or neither. It's really important that I know. Serious business.
Upon first glance I'd say no wiener, but that long loop could just be a massive one. I'd like to think so. If you squint your eyes a bit it could be a wiener plus ball sack.
It might more resemble a hole though, so perhaps vagina? I think if there were a sex organ it would most closely resemble an anus.
But is that a man's anus or woman's?
This and more relevant and highly fascinating discussion can be had at www.shearstupidity.com
EDIT: I still say the '&' symbol looks like a dude playing air guitar. So at least we have the gender of that one confirmed. My Brogue character, on easy mode, is a dude.
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There are plenty of women who like a wide variety of games.
It's like with roguelikes. Exactly 50% of players are women, because I say so!
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There are plenty of women who like a wide variety of games.
It's like with roguelikes. Exactly 50% of players are women, because I say so!
I don't think anyone's claimed that 50% of roguelike players are women. I'd doubt it. But it's also not true that 0% of roguelike players are women.
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I'm 100% sure that at least 50% of what is said is only 63% accurate.
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It's probably less than 1% and even that 1% is women who want to do something men seem to like, but they are not sure why.
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Hey Krice I just got a call from some neuro scientists from early last century. It was a time warp call.
They were wondering if their discipline had advanced at all after 100 years. I forwarded them your posts. They patted themselves on the back, comforted that their findings held true over time and progress had frozen in around 1915.
Congratulations.
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Guys, would you like to spend your energy / mana points in the Early Dev section instead of here? I regularly post updates of my game and would love if someone opened it, played for 30 minutes and told me what they think. I'm sure there are many other devs there like me.
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Sorry to revive this thread, but:
[Amount of female RL players] is probably less than 1% […]
The latest DCSS Survey (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/dcss-survey-results-2012) suggests that 8% of Crawl's players are female. This alarmingly low figure means that the number Krice pulled out of his man-hole is only off by about 800%.
By the way, I agree with you, miki151, but flaming Krice isn't an entirely futile endeavor. His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user; this kind of tripe shouldn't stand uncorrected.
As always,
Minotauros
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His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user
Let's get real. I can't make anyone leave this forum, it's entirely their own call. If you get insulted by stuff on the internet I suggest you stay away from it. If you can't make any arguments in a discussion than decide to quit I suggest you grow up to an adult.
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Sorry to revive this thread, but:
[Amount of female RL players] is probably less than 1% […]
The latest DCSS Survey (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/dcss-survey-results-2012) suggests that 8% of Crawl's players are female. This alarmingly low figure means that the number Krice pulled out of his man-hole is only off by about 800%.
By the way, I agree with you, miki151, but flaming Krice isn't an entirely futile endeavor. His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user; this kind of tripe shouldn't stand uncorrected.
Even if the DCSS numbers are reliable, which is arguable, construing them to be representative of the make-up of the general roguelike community is self-serving at best. You and Krice are of the same general opinion - that there is a minority of female players of roguelikes. Does it matter if it is only 1% or 8%? I doubt it.
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66% have never found a rune...?
Crawl players are such noobs.
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Sorry to revive this thread, but:
[Amount of female RL players] is probably less than 1% […]
The latest DCSS Survey (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/dcss-survey-results-2012) suggests that 8% of Crawl's players are female. This alarmingly low figure means that the number Krice pulled out of his man-hole is only off by about 800%.
By the way, I agree with you, miki151, but flaming Krice isn't an entirely futile endeavor. His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user; this kind of tripe shouldn't stand uncorrected.
Even if the DCSS numbers are reliable, which is arguable, construing them to be representative of the make-up of the general roguelike community is self-serving at best. You and Krice are of the same general opinion - that there is a minority of female players of roguelikes. Does it matter if it is only 1% or 8%? I doubt it.
It seems to me there's a significant difference in attitude toward this minority. AgingMinotaur is dismayed that the number is as low as 8% (which actually sounds about right to me, but I can only speculate based on my own experience in online roguelikes). By contrast, Krice thinks the number is so small that the appropriate response to women who claim to be interested in roguelikes is incredulity and accusations of some kind of dishonesty -- moreover, he seems to find it unsuitable for women to play roguelikes, because doing so cuts against archaic notions of gender roles and even threatens the genre by raising the spectre of roguelike games including more traditionally "female friendly" themes and mechanics.
I don't see how it's self-serving of AgingMinotaur to point out that what little market research is available suggests that the actual number of female players is several times greater than what Krice blithely puts forth as an upper bound. As for the difference between 8% and < 1%, it seems to me < 1% would suggest a certain amount of hopelessness in reaching female players whereas 8% is something that could be built on.
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His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user
Let's get real. I can't make anyone leave this forum, it's entirely their own call. If you get insulted by stuff on the internet I suggest you stay away from it. If you can't make any arguments in a discussion than decide to quit I suggest you grow up to an adult.
You can say that, but meh. Sure it's anyone's call to leave or stay on a discussion board where the signal/noise ratio reaches a level they're uncomfortable with. It's still appropriate to call out people on their trolling[1] in the hope of ameliorating the discourse. It's not as if it's not a problem for a forum that perfectly reasonable people quit because they find it unwelcoming. We must all live and accept a certain amount of crap, but I can't blame anyone for thinking that the benefits of using the Temple are outweighed by having to listen to you. Even if I do hold a special place in my heart for Krice ever since the glory days of rgrd, I, too, could do without some of the sexist and generally bigoted remarks :-X This might all make you proud as a troll, or you could take it as an incentive to self-reflect for just a single unit of Planck time.
Even if the DCSS numbers are reliable, which is arguable, construing them to be representative of the make-up of the general roguelike community is self-serving at best.
It's a fair, cop, but society's to blame. I think the DCSS survey is amongst the best statistic we can go after – even if it is only representative of Crawl players who also are likely to take part in a voluntary survey. I don't know how and how much this survey is skewed in relation to the general female RL playing community. In any case, I found it an interesting number in itself, so I bumped this abominable thread to bring it to light. Also, what mushroom patch said :)
As always (trolling myself),
Minotauros
[1] Ignoring, for a minute, the "Do not feed the trolls" sign
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I don't see how it's self-serving of AgingMinotaur to point out that what little market research is available suggests that the actual number of female players is several times greater than what Krice blithely puts forth as an upper bound. As for the difference between 8% and < 1%, it seems to me < 1% would suggest a certain amount of hopelessness in reaching female players whereas 8% is something that could be built on.
Just because something can be given a meaningful name, like market research, does not mean that it contains useful or representative data. It is just a series of questions answered by some potentially self-selecting set of respondents. And given the breadth of the definition of the term roguelike these days, how whatever potentially non-representative set of players of that game, map to games of this genre in general or to any specific given game in the genre is unresolved.
Do you believe that at least 8% of Brogue players are female? Do you believe that at least 8% of the Incursion players are female? Do you believe that at least 8% of the Omega players are female? For any given roguelike I may name, do you believe that at least 8% of the players are female? I can answer that for you. No, you do not. Because you have no idea, with or without the DCSS survey results, how many people of either sex play any of these games. But the DCSS survey is all you have, and it supports the less hopeless position you wish to be true, so it gets brandished about as more than it is.
This data can only be honestly portrayed as saying that of the DCSS players who felt inclined to answer a survey, 8% gave answers chose to portray themselves as female. It was self-serving to use it as a supporting fact for an argument. It is meaningless. Being better than nothing, doesn't make it worth more than nothing.
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I don't see how it's self-serving of AgingMinotaur to point out that what little market research is available suggests that the actual number of female players is several times greater than what Krice blithely puts forth as an upper bound. As for the difference between 8% and < 1%, it seems to me < 1% would suggest a certain amount of hopelessness in reaching female players whereas 8% is something that could be built on.
Just because something can be given a meaningful name, like market research, does not mean that it contains useful or representative data. It is just a series of questions answered by some potentially self-selecting set of respondents. And given the breadth of the definition of the term roguelike these days, how whatever potentially non-representative set of players of that game, map to games of this genre in general or to any specific given game in the genre is unresolved.
Do you believe that at least 8% of Brogue players are female? Do you believe that at least 8% of the Incursion players are female? Do you believe that at least 8% of the Omega players are female? For any given roguelike I may name, do you believe that at least 8% of the players are female? I can answer that for you. No, you do not. Because you have no idea, with or without the DCSS survey results, how many people of either sex play any of these games. But the DCSS survey is all you have, and it supports the less hopeless position you wish to be true, so it gets brandished about as more than it is.
This data can only be honestly portrayed as saying that of the DCSS players who felt inclined to answer a survey, 8% gave answers chose to portray themselves as female. It was self-serving to use it as a supporting fact for an argument. It is meaningless. Being better than nothing, doesn't make it worth more than nothing.
I don't think anyone plays any of those games, so I don't find this line of questioning very meaningful. I think a nontrivial number of people play DCSS and in other instances in which I've played roguelikes online, I've encountered nonzero numbers of female players, so I stand by my previous statements re: 8%.
It could be that people systematically lie or answer randomly in the poll in question, but it strikes me as unlikely. I agree that the poll isn't conducted according to the most rigorous standards of social science, but the results aren't meaningless as you suggest.
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Here's Wil Wheaton recommending Dreadmor: https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568 (https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568)
I trust you guys will shower him with an equal level of disapproval?
I will? Because Dredmor is boring and has bad mechanics and horrible flow. Its graphics and flavor are wasted on the incredibly tripe gameplay.
Papers please is excellent for a free flash game. It's not worth paying for though. It's only claim to fame is that it's now "deep" or "cool" to talk about/realize what kind of shit went on in Germany after the war. So story, much deep, wow.
Dear Esther is not a game.
I died several times to randomly generated bullshit minibosses with powers that pull you next to them and then put all your skills in cooldown in ToME4... If that's 'okay" because you're "supposed to play the game with permadeath off" then it's a bad roguelike.
Could just be my bad luck or lack of skill though.
I like both Will and Felicia (especially their Tabletop channel on youtube), but it's a bit sad that they're using their fame to advertise mediocre games. Felicia can lay the geek-vibes on a bit THICK, though, so I can understand people not liking her or thinking she's a fake geek GAMER GRRL.
Why would I have to shower him with an equal level of dissaproval though? Why equal? If I hate his games more than ToME4 I should shower him with MORE disapproval than Felicia. If I really hate ToME4 then Felicia deserves more disapproval. Oh wait, is it because Felicia is a girl and you feel the need to defend her honor on her behalf on a forum where she's unlikely to frequent, against people whose opinions she might not give a fuck about?
Welcome to modern american feminism where women have to be treated equally to men, but only if it's in the woman's advantage.
Cool story. So approval/disapproval is now tied to gender rather than the subject matter presented. I'll keep that in mind :D
I enjoy all the kneejerk reactions in this thread. Awww yeah.
OMG, didn't check the temple for some days and I discover this thread.
This is true, this is an embarrassment to roguelike community. When somebody say a nice thing about you or your community you smile or say thanks you do not *bite the hand that feeds you*
Bite the hand that feeds you? That situation only applies when you're being fed (getting money).
Seeing as how most roguelikes are, oh I dunno, FREE, there's no need for anyone to worry about "biting the hand that feeds you" LOL.
Are you people out of your minds? That you like tome or not doesn't even matter, it's publicity for roguelikes; what's not to like?
As for miss Felicia Day, whether you like her or not, she is known and not for how she looks; she has made some awesome stuff online. You do not have to like what she does, but you have to respect it.
Nah, nobody is entitled to respect, ever. Respect should be given freely.
It's not publicity for roguelikes per sé though. If celebs start praising Dredmor, and people play it en masse, those people would then maybe try other roguelikes, only to go OH THIS IS GARBAGE WHAT IS THIS, CALCULATOR PORNO?
How does that help roguelikes? It only helps Dredmor. (Or in this case, ToME)
Don't act like Felicia plugging your game is helping the entire community just because you share a genre with the rest...
Steam has some roguelikes, yes, but they're a terrible representation of the genre as a whole.
Implying a select number of roguelikes on a closed market like Steam is anything but horrible publicity is retarded. If anything people are growing up with ideas about what roguelikes are that are just plain wrong, if not harmful, thanks to Steam.
If a person doesn't have the brains or desire to go out, find the myriad of free roguelikes, and play them to see which they like/dislike... I doubt that kind of person can contribute anythign worthwhile to this community or the genre... That applies to all aspects of life though; don't let other people dictate your tastes. Or am I being too heavy-handed in my holier than thou bullshit here?
Oh and Krice, it is very rare when I get really angry at somebody but let me put it in simple words for you: your opinions about women is simply terrible, offencive and wrong; and I am not even a woman, I can hardly imagine how the ladies reading your posts must feel. Please go crawl back to your corner to develop the game you want nobody to play. Or maybe simply try to not insult half the world's population with every post.
Bro, please don't feel angry on women's behalf. They'll feel angry themself, or, if they have skin that isn't one micrometer thick, they most likely won't give a quarter of a fuck about what Krice thinks about them. HEY HOW ABOUT THAT? Or go and white knight some more, I'm sure more women will buy your game on steam because of it? (Really, don't be offended on someone else's behalf. That patronizing and half-hearted behaviour is much worse than anything Krice could ever say.)
I love how all these people who I've never heard of before come out of the woodwork and go "This thread has convinced me this board has nothing more worth hearing.". Have the decency to leave quietly, or the courage to stay and voice your disagreement.
Please don't engage in this kind of attention-seeking behavior, it's not going to help any party.
People are going to say things that you disagree with or find hurtful. Deal with it or get off the internet. God help you when you take that milquetoast attitude into real life, though.
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I just want to say that my initial disapproval here was based entirely on the low quality of Felicia Day's post and the pointlessness of drawing attention to it. Please don't associate me with the misogynists or the white knights or any other groups with weird gender issues.
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I don't think anyone plays any of those games, so I don't find this line of questioning very meaningful. I think a nontrivial number of people play DCSS and in other instances in which I've played roguelikes online, I've encountered nonzero numbers of female players, so I stand by my previous statements re: 8%.
It could be that people systematically lie or answer randomly in the poll in question, but it strikes me as unlikely. I agree that the poll isn't conducted according to the most rigorous standards of social science, but the results aren't meaningless as you suggest.
It doesn't matter what roguelikes I name - I even went so far as to phrase the question a general way. You're avoiding the point, that the results are meaningless when it comes to the assertion, made by yourself and AgingMinotaur, is that the DCSS results can be taken and extrapolated to represent the whole community.
Thanks for relaying your anecdotal experience, and saying the results "aren't meaningless", whatever that means. What I take from your reply is that your new assertion is that you personally choose to believe that female player levels are 8%. Fine. What I am against, is using it as a fact to dismiss other posters as clearly being wrong about their beliefs. As AgingMinotaur did for Krice. I do not accept the 8% and object to people suggesting it should be considered a fact.
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I love how all these people who I've never heard of before come out of the woodwork and go "This thread has convinced me this board has nothing more worth hearing.". Have the decency to leave quietly, or the courage to stay and voice your disagreement.
Please don't engage in this kind of attention-seeking behavior, it's not going to help any party.
People are going to say things that you disagree with or find hurtful. Deal with it or get off the internet. God help you when you take that milquetoast attitude into real life, though.
If only you had written this post without the attitude.
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I don't think anyone plays any of those games, so I don't find this line of questioning very meaningful. I think a nontrivial number of people play DCSS and in other instances in which I've played roguelikes online, I've encountered nonzero numbers of female players, so I stand by my previous statements re: 8%.
It could be that people systematically lie or answer randomly in the poll in question, but it strikes me as unlikely. I agree that the poll isn't conducted according to the most rigorous standards of social science, but the results aren't meaningless as you suggest.
It doesn't matter what roguelikes I name - I even went so far as to phrase the question a general way. You're avoiding the point, that the results are meaningless when it comes to the assertion, made by yourself and AgingMinotaur, is that the DCSS results can be taken and extrapolated to represent the whole community.
Thanks for relaying your anecdotal experience, and saying the results "aren't meaningless", whatever that means. What I take from your reply is that your new assertion is that you personally choose to believe that female player levels are 8%. Fine. What I am against, is using it as a fact to dismiss other posters as clearly being wrong about their beliefs. As AgingMinotaur did for Krice. I do not accept the 8% and object to people suggesting it should be considered a fact.
Well, Krice is clearly wrong in his beliefs on a number of levels, but whether you accept the 8% or not, his < 1% figure ought to be viewed with at least as much contempt as, say, the result of a good faith effort to arrive at a figure through an online straw poll.
If you're playing the role of the angry statistician here, refusing to be convinced by something as haphazard as an online poll, okay, whatever -- this is a line of argument used every time an online poll comes up with a result someone doesn't like. It's a bit tedious, but even if it weren't, the claim that something isn't scientifically rigorous or whatever else does not vacate its meaning as, say, a guide to the demographics of crawl or roguelike players.
If this is some kind of sympathy for the underdog where you say Krice is getting tag teamed/ganged up on, I think it's nice there are people of that disposition on the internet, even if their sympathy is so often misplaced.
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Here's Wil Wheaton recommending Dreadmor: https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568 (https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568)
I trust you guys will shower him with an equal level of disapproval?
I will? Because Dredmor is boring and has bad mechanics and horrible flow. Its graphics and flavor are wasted on the incredibly tripe gameplay.
Papers please is excellent for a free flash game. It's not worth paying for though. It's only claim to fame is that it's now "deep" or "cool" to talk about/realize what kind of shit went on in Germany after the war. So story, much deep, wow.
Dear Esther is not a game.
I died several times to randomly generated bullshit minibosses with powers that pull you next to them and then put all your skills in cooldown in ToME4... If that's 'okay" because you're "supposed to play the game with permadeath off" then it's a bad roguelike.
Could just be my bad luck or lack of skill though.
I like both Will and Felicia (especially their Tabletop channel on youtube), but it's a bit sad that they're using their fame to advertise mediocre games. Felicia can lay the geek-vibes on a bit THICK, though, so I can understand people not liking her or thinking she's a fake geek GAMER GRRL.
Why would I have to shower him with an equal level of dissaproval though? Why equal? If I hate his games more than ToME4 I should shower him with MORE disapproval than Felicia. If I really hate ToME4 then Felicia deserves more disapproval. Oh wait, is it because Felicia is a girl and you feel the need to defend her honor on her behalf on a forum where she's unlikely to frequent, against people whose opinions she might not give a fuck about?
Welcome to modern american feminism where women have to be treated equally to men, but only if it's in the woman's advantage.
Cool story. So approval/disapproval is now tied to gender rather than the subject matter presented. I'll keep that in mind :D
I enjoy all the kneejerk reactions in this thread. Awww yeah.
For a guy 'advising' DarkGod not to get offended on other people's behalf you seem awfully bent out of shape about a comment not directed at you made in this thread well before you joined it on a topic you had nothing to do with.
If you want to bash on people for recommending games you don't personally like then that's one thing (I mean, I still don't really give a shit for your opinion, if 'it's not a game' is the level of your insight) - but nobody was talking about the quality of TOME at all, they were criticising on the basis of who Felicia Day is (or isn't). My point was that if the thread had been about Wil Wheaton recommending something, we still might have got some 'who cares?' comments (possibly even from me) but we probably wouldn't be getting the same level of vitriol and 'I think women try to ruin even games from us' comments.
Which I guess deep down, you know, or you wouldn't have come out on the defensive and wouldn't have brought out some weird axe to grind against 'american feminism'. I'm not sure what it is exactly that you find so threatening, but if it makes you feel any better I'm not actually even American. Some people aren't.
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Wow, that flame war was totally revived. Hooray!
As always,
Minotauros
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Well, Krice is clearly wrong in his beliefs on a number of levels, but whether you accept the 8%
That was from DCSS only, right? I guess hard core (=ascii) roguelikes will reduce that close to 1%... I think the main reason women play DCSS is that looking at tile version screenshots they thought it was Minecraft-like.
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I, too, could do without some of the sexist and generally bigoted remarks
Since I'm not american I have a different view on that alleged sexism. Americans seem to handle difficult issues by banning them. They even ban boobs which are worst creations of satan than the fact that USA is one of the very few contemporary countries to perform military actions on foreign countries and in that process killing innocent people.
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lol. For the record, I was born in Norway and lived there until I was 20, so I "represent" the same region as you, Krice. Also, thanks for clearing up the correlation between drone bombings and sexism. In the context of neoimperialism, it makes complete sense to claim that girls are silly and play with dolls.
As always,
Minotauros
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I think the main reason women play DCSS is that looking at tile version screenshots they thought it was Minecraft-like.
Come on, man, this is completely baseless.
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Yeah, obviously the real reason is that when you equip different things, your character's image changes, so it's kind of like playing with dolls. ::)
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Hey, swords are cooler/better than shopping bags! Because I say so, of course.
So, being bored at work, I give you for free my idea:
MallRL!
"Deep inside the mall is the legendary Trousers of Bling, an item that can be sold for more than its buying price. The ultimate bargain!"
You start outside of the mall, an endless maze of corridors and shops.
You obtain food by corner shops scattered in the compound. Avoid starvation caused by spending too much time looking at items!
You avoid getting hit by salespeople, as they can stun you and starve, die of old age or get permanently feebleminded!
Treasures are bargains, hidden within the shops deep in the complex
Stats:
- Str : how much you can carry
- Dex: how easily you can avoid shopkeepers and stumbling to other shoppers
- Con: how long can you go without snacks
- Int: how to spot the good offers
- Wis: how to quickly shrug off salesmen
- Cha: how to charm salesmen to minions who can locate, grab, and carry the offers back to you.
Bonus points for anybody who demonstrates how that's a worse concept than slaying something every 2-3 keypresses.
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I think people play webtiles because it is easy to connect from any consumer computing device and one can switch devices easily and seamlessly. Also, the minimap -- which could be done without much trouble in the console version too, but just isn't implemented at present. The appeal of webtiles clearly has nothing to do with gender, lazy stereotypes aside.
I have to agree with the concerns raised by other posters about the quality of thought on display from the anti-women and/or Felicia Day contingent here.
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It's about time for this flamewar to finish.
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Hey, swords are cooler/better than shopping bags! Because I say so, of course.
So, being bored at work, I give you for free my idea:
MallRL!
"Deep inside the mall is the legendary Trousers of Bling, an item that can be sold for more than its buying price. The ultimate bargain!"
You start outside of the mall, an endless maze of corridors and shops.
You obtain food by corner shops scattered in the compound. Avoid starvation caused by spending too much time looking at items!
You avoid getting hit by salespeople, as they can stun you and starve, die of old age or get permanently feebleminded!
Treasures are bargains, hidden within the shops deep in the complex
Stats:
- Str : how much you can carry
- Dex: how easily you can avoid shopkeepers and stumbling to other shoppers
- Con: how long can you go without snacks
- Int: how to spot the good offers
- Wis: how to quickly shrug off salesmen
- Cha: how to charm salesmen to minions who can locate, grab, and carry the offers back to you.
Bonus points for anybody who demonstrates how that's a worse concept than slaying something every 2-3 keypresses.
I'd play it.
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I once had an idea for a "Motherhood RL". Unlike Jeff Lait's famous Fatherhood RL, you wouldn't score points for berating your kids and such. Instead, it would play as a randomly generated platformer where you have to make sure your children aren't killed in gory accidents, keep your screaming babies fed and rested, bring older kids to school and extracurricular activities, as well as avoiding insanity through substance abuse :) You'd probably start off with just one infant, who turns into a toddler in level 2, just as you get another baby. Each time you clear a level, all surviving kids grow to the next age level and a new infant (or, god forbid, a pair of twins) comes into play.
As always,
Minotauros