Felicia Day endorses Tome 4

[Rickton]

There are plenty of women who like a wide variety of games.

It's like with roguelikes. Exactly 50% of players are women, because I say so!

I don't think anyone's claimed that 50% of roguelike players are women. I'd doubt it. But it's also not true that 0% of roguelike players are women.

[guest509]

I'm 100% sure that at least 50% of what is said is only 63% accurate.

[Krice]

It's probably less than 1% and even that 1% is women who want to do something men seem to like, but they are not sure why.

[guest509]

Hey Krice I just got a call from some neuro scientists from early last century. It was a time warp call.

They were wondering if their discipline had advanced at all after 100 years. I forwarded them your posts. They patted themselves on the back, comforted that their findings held true over time and progress had frozen in around 1915.

Congratulations.

[miki151]

Guys, would you like to spend your energy / mana points in the Early Dev section instead of here? I regularly post updates of my game and would love if someone opened it, played for 30 minutes and told me what they think. I'm sure there are many other devs there like me.

[AgingMinotaur]

Sorry to revive this thread, but:

[Amount of female RL players] is probably less than 1% […]

The latest DCSS Survey suggests that 8% of Crawl's players are female. This alarmingly low figure means that the number Krice pulled out of his man-hole is only off by about 800%.

By the way, I agree with you, miki151, but flaming Krice isn't an entirely futile endeavor. His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user; this kind of tripe shouldn't stand uncorrected.

As always,
Minotauros

[Krice]

His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user

Let's get real. I can't make anyone leave this forum, it's entirely their own call. If you get insulted by stuff on the internet I suggest you stay away from it. If you can't make any arguments in a discussion than decide to quit I suggest you grow up to an adult.

[chooseusername]

Sorry to revive this thread, but:

[Amount of female RL players] is probably less than 1% […]

The latest DCSS Survey suggests that 8% of Crawl's players are female. This alarmingly low figure means that the number Krice pulled out of his man-hole is only off by about 800%.

By the way, I agree with you, miki151, but flaming Krice isn't an entirely futile endeavor. His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user; this kind of tripe shouldn't stand uncorrected.

Even if the DCSS numbers are reliable, which is arguable, construing them to be representative of the make-up of the general roguelike community is self-serving at best.   You and Krice are of the same general opinion - that there is a minority of female players of roguelikes.  Does it matter if it is only 1% or 8%?  I doubt it.

[Vanguard]

66% have never found a rune...?

Crawl players are such noobs.

[mushroom patch]

Sorry to revive this thread, but:

[Amount of female RL players] is probably less than 1% […]

The latest DCSS Survey suggests that 8% of Crawl's players are female. This alarmingly low figure means that the number Krice pulled out of his man-hole is only off by about 800%.

By the way, I agree with you, miki151, but flaming Krice isn't an entirely futile endeavor. His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user; this kind of tripe shouldn't stand uncorrected.

Even if the DCSS numbers are reliable, which is arguable, construing them to be representative of the make-up of the general roguelike community is self-serving at best.   You and Krice are of the same general opinion - that there is a minority of female players of roguelikes.  Does it matter if it is only 1% or 8%?  I doubt it.

It seems to me there's a significant difference in attitude toward this minority. AgingMinotaur is dismayed that the number is as low as 8% (which actually sounds about right to me, but I can only speculate based on my own experience in online roguelikes). By contrast, Krice thinks the number is so small that the appropriate response to women who claim to be interested in roguelikes is incredulity and accusations of some kind of dishonesty -- moreover, he seems to find it unsuitable for women to play roguelikes, because doing so cuts against archaic notions of gender roles and even threatens the genre by raising the spectre of roguelike games including more traditionally "female friendly" themes and mechanics.

I don't see how it's self-serving of AgingMinotaur to point out that what little market research is available suggests that the actual number of female players is several times greater than what Krice blithely puts forth as an upper bound. As for the difference between 8% and < 1%, it seems to me < 1% would suggest a certain amount of hopelessness in reaching female players whereas 8% is something that could be built on.

[AgingMinotaur]

His leavings in this thread alone cost us at least one active user

Let's get real. I can't make anyone leave this forum, it's entirely their own call. If you get insulted by stuff on the internet I suggest you stay away from it. If you can't make any arguments in a discussion than decide to quit I suggest you grow up to an adult.

You can say that, but meh. Sure it's anyone's call to leave or stay on a discussion board where the signal/noise ratio reaches a level they're uncomfortable with. It's still appropriate to call out people on their trolling[1] in the hope of ameliorating the discourse. It's not as if it's not a problem for a forum that perfectly reasonable people quit because they find it unwelcoming. We must all live and accept a certain amount of crap, but I can't blame anyone for thinking that the benefits of using the Temple are outweighed by having to listen to you. Even if I do hold a special place in my heart for Krice ever since the glory days of rgrd, I, too, could do without some of the sexist and generally bigoted remarks This might all make you proud as a troll, or you could take it as an incentive to self-reflect for just a single unit of Planck time.

Even if the DCSS numbers are reliable, which is arguable, construing them to be representative of the make-up of the general roguelike community is self-serving at best.

It's a fair, cop, but society's to blame. I think the DCSS survey is amongst the best statistic we can go after – even if it is only representative of Crawl players who also are likely to take part in a voluntary survey. I don't know how and how much this survey is skewed in relation to the general female RL playing community. In any case, I found it an interesting number in itself, so I bumped this abominable thread to bring it to light. Also, what mushroom patch said

As always (trolling myself),
Minotauros

[1] Ignoring, for a minute, the "Do not feed the trolls" sign

[chooseusername]

I don't see how it's self-serving of AgingMinotaur to point out that what little market research is available suggests that the actual number of female players is several times greater than what Krice blithely puts forth as an upper bound. As for the difference between 8% and < 1%, it seems to me < 1% would suggest a certain amount of hopelessness in reaching female players whereas 8% is something that could be built on.

Just because something can be given a meaningful name, like market research, does not mean that it contains useful or representative data.  It is just a series of questions answered by some potentially self-selecting set of respondents.  And given the breadth of the definition of the term roguelike these days, how whatever potentially non-representative set of players of that game, map to games of this genre in general or to any specific given game in the genre is unresolved.

Do you believe that at least 8% of Brogue players are female?  Do you believe that at least 8% of the Incursion players are female?  Do you believe that at least 8% of the Omega players are female?  For any given roguelike I may name, do you believe that at least 8% of the players are female?  I can answer that for you.  No, you do not.  Because you have no idea, with or without the DCSS survey results, how many people of either sex play any of these games.  But the DCSS survey is all you have, and it supports the less hopeless position you wish to be true, so it gets brandished about as more than it is.

This data can only be honestly portrayed as saying that of the DCSS players who felt inclined to answer a survey, 8% gave answers chose to portray themselves as female.  It was self-serving to use it as a supporting fact for an argument.  It is meaningless.  Being better than nothing, doesn't make it worth more than nothing.

[mushroom patch]

I don't see how it's self-serving of AgingMinotaur to point out that what little market research is available suggests that the actual number of female players is several times greater than what Krice blithely puts forth as an upper bound. As for the difference between 8% and < 1%, it seems to me < 1% would suggest a certain amount of hopelessness in reaching female players whereas 8% is something that could be built on.

Just because something can be given a meaningful name, like market research, does not mean that it contains useful or representative data.  It is just a series of questions answered by some potentially self-selecting set of respondents.  And given the breadth of the definition of the term roguelike these days, how whatever potentially non-representative set of players of that game, map to games of this genre in general or to any specific given game in the genre is unresolved.

Do you believe that at least 8% of Brogue players are female?  Do you believe that at least 8% of the Incursion players are female?  Do you believe that at least 8% of the Omega players are female?  For any given roguelike I may name, do you believe that at least 8% of the players are female?  I can answer that for you.  No, you do not.  Because you have no idea, with or without the DCSS survey results, how many people of either sex play any of these games.  But the DCSS survey is all you have, and it supports the less hopeless position you wish to be true, so it gets brandished about as more than it is.

This data can only be honestly portrayed as saying that of the DCSS players who felt inclined to answer a survey, 8% gave answers chose to portray themselves as female.  It was self-serving to use it as a supporting fact for an argument.  It is meaningless.  Being better than nothing, doesn't make it worth more than nothing.

I don't think anyone plays any of those games, so I don't find this line of questioning very meaningful. I think a nontrivial number of people play DCSS and in other instances in which I've played roguelikes online, I've encountered nonzero numbers of female players, so I stand by my previous statements re: 8%.

It could be that people systematically lie or answer randomly in the poll in question, but it strikes me as unlikely. I agree that the poll isn't conducted according to the most rigorous standards of social science, but the results aren't meaningless as you suggest.

[Holsety]

Here's Wil Wheaton recommending Dreadmor: https://twitter.com/wilw/status/409767483084525568

I trust you guys will shower him with an equal level of disapproval?

I will? Because Dredmor is boring and has bad mechanics and horrible flow. Its graphics and flavor are wasted on the incredibly tripe gameplay.
Papers please is excellent for a free flash game. It's not worth paying for though. It's only claim to fame is that it's now "deep" or "cool" to talk about/realize what kind of shit went on in Germany after the war. So story, much deep, wow.
Dear Esther is not a game.

I died several times to randomly generated bullshit minibosses with powers that pull you next to them and then put all your skills in cooldown in ToME4... If that's 'okay" because you're "supposed to play the game with permadeath off" then it's a bad roguelike.
Could just be my bad luck or lack of skill though.

I like both Will and Felicia (especially their Tabletop channel on youtube), but it's a bit sad that they're using their fame to advertise mediocre games. Felicia can lay the geek-vibes on a bit THICK, though, so I can understand people not liking her or thinking she's a fake geek GAMER GRRL.

Why would I have to shower him with an equal level of dissaproval though? Why equal? If I hate his games more than ToME4 I should shower him with MORE disapproval than Felicia. If I really hate ToME4 then Felicia deserves more disapproval. Oh wait, is it because Felicia is a girl and you feel the need to defend her honor on her behalf on a forum where she's unlikely to frequent, against people whose opinions she might not give a fuck about?
Welcome to modern american feminism where women have to be treated equally to men, but only if it's in the woman's advantage.
Cool story. So approval/disapproval is now tied to gender rather than the subject matter presented. I'll keep that in mind

I enjoy all the kneejerk reactions in this thread. Awww yeah.

OMG, didn't check the temple for some days and I discover this thread.
This is true, this is an embarrassment to roguelike community. When somebody say a nice thing about you or your community you smile or say thanks you do not *bite the hand that feeds you*

Bite the hand that feeds you? That situation only applies when you're being fed (getting money).
Seeing as how most roguelikes are, oh I dunno, FREE, there's no need for anyone to worry about "biting the hand that feeds you" LOL.

Are you people out of your minds? That you like tome or not doesn't even matter, it's publicity for roguelikes; what's not to like?
As for miss Felicia Day, whether you like her or not, she is known and not for how she looks; she has made some awesome stuff online. You do not have to like what she does, but you have to respect it.

Nah, nobody is entitled to respect, ever. Respect should be given freely.
It's not publicity for roguelikes per sé though. If celebs start praising Dredmor, and people play it en masse, those people would then maybe try other roguelikes, only to go OH THIS IS GARBAGE WHAT IS THIS, CALCULATOR PORNO?
How does that help roguelikes? It only helps Dredmor. (Or in this case, ToME)
Don't act like Felicia plugging your game is helping the entire community just because you share a genre with the rest...
Steam has some roguelikes, yes, but they're a terrible representation of the genre as a whole.
Implying a select number of roguelikes on a closed market like Steam is anything but horrible publicity is retarded. If anything people are growing up with ideas about what roguelikes are that are just plain wrong, if not harmful, thanks to Steam.
If a person doesn't have the brains or desire to go out, find the myriad of free roguelikes, and play them to see which they like/dislike... I doubt that kind of person can contribute anythign worthwhile to this community or the genre... That applies to all aspects of life though; don't let other people dictate your tastes. Or am I being too heavy-handed in my holier than thou bullshit here?

Oh and Krice, it is very rare when I get really angry at somebody but let me put it in simple words for you: your opinions about women is simply terrible, offencive and wrong; and I am not even a woman, I can hardly imagine how the ladies reading your posts must feel. Please go crawl back to your corner to develop the game you want nobody to play. Or maybe simply try to not insult half the world's population with every post.

Bro, please don't feel angry on women's behalf. They'll feel angry themself, or, if they have skin that isn't one micrometer thick, they most likely won't give a quarter of a fuck about what Krice thinks about them. HEY HOW ABOUT THAT? Or go and white knight some more, I'm sure more women will buy your game on steam because of it? (Really, don't be offended on someone else's behalf. That patronizing and half-hearted behaviour is much worse than anything Krice  could ever say.)

I love how all these people who I've never heard of before come out of the woodwork and go "This thread has convinced me this board has nothing more worth hearing.". Have the decency to leave quietly, or the courage to stay and voice your disagreement.
Please don't engage in this kind of attention-seeking behavior, it's not going to help any party.
People are going to say things that you disagree with or find hurtful. Deal with it or get off the internet. God help you when you take that milquetoast attitude into real life, though.

[Vanguard]

I just want to say that my initial disapproval here was based entirely on the low quality of Felicia Day's post and the pointlessness of drawing attention to it.  Please don't associate me with the misogynists or the white knights or any other groups with weird gender issues.