Temple of The Roguelike Forums

Game Discussion => Early Dev => Topic started by: miki151 on July 04, 2013, 06:50:27 PM

Title: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on July 04, 2013, 06:50:27 PM
UPDATE: Zagadka is evolving into KeeperRL, a roguelike style Dungeon Keeper clone. Check out the link below for a demo video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRxxejoodzk



I've been writing this little game for about 3 months. The title is temporary, and I haven't decided what the story will be yet. So for now it's a generic Roguelike with a village and small dungeon. I think it's playable and I like playing it myself.

Some notable features:
- there is no HP as known from other games. You can be wounded more or less seriously, but there is also decapitation, cutting of arms, legs and wings, and other fun stuff.
- you can hide behind things and surprise attack
- there are rivers, bridges, rolling boulders and other fun things in the dungeon
- semi-intelligent monsters, that can use items and will chase you or run away if they are afraid
- a few weapons and armor
- no exp or skill system yet

Note that this is a dev version and there are many rough edges. It's not meant to be complete, but you can walk around, explore and bash monsters. There aren't any serious bugs, I think, and I haven't had a crash for weeks.

Here's the link. There are instructions in English and Polish inside.
http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip

So, let's see what you think :)


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tImSWW1iGt0/UdWZrwyw5bI/AAAAAAAAH_U/Ld5jcBsNj7Y/w1026-h679-no/zagadka-screen.png)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 05, 2013, 07:55:33 AM
There aren't any serious bugs, I think, and I haven't had a crash for weeks.

I should have known better than to write that, my friend has found a bunch of bugs in the game, and crashes too ::)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: guest509 on July 05, 2013, 07:58:37 AM
It happens man. Don't let it dissuade you from making your game.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 05, 2013, 08:28:19 AM
Of course I won't :)

Has any one tried playing yet? If your game crashes after throwing an item, please try to remember the circumstances, as I can't reproduce the bug.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 14, 2013, 06:01:00 PM
Made many small and big changes to the game. The village is now surrounded by a 600x600 tile wilderness with mountains, lakes, animals, etc. There are roads that you can use to travel quickly. One of them will take you to the main dungeon.

You can get the game from the same link:
http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip

The plan now is to fill the wilderness with lots of interesting random content, so the player enjoys wandering around and exploring. All terrain and dugeons are randomly generated, BTW.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 16, 2013, 07:53:13 PM
Making quick progress...
- new location: cemetary with zombies and vampires - time to chop some more limbs  ;)
- added a few nice looking unicode tiles
- randomly generated name for PC

The new executable is at the same link:
http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip

Can anyone let me know how is the performance on Windows? I only have a virtual machine to test on, and I've just switched rendering libraries, I'm not sure it's working as it should.

I can also compile a Linux binary, if anyone wants. I'm still eagerly waiting for some feedback  ;)

(http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/screen0716.png)
(http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/screen0716_2.png)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on July 22, 2013, 07:27:44 PM
When the game window gets deactivated, it will never redraw itself and the program stops responding. Please fix this as soon as you can. I'll try to drop some feedback tomorrow, anyway.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 22, 2013, 08:35:31 PM
Yay, thanks for trying  ;D

I just fixed this yesterday, I will try to put up another version soon. Meanwhile, just press a direction key or other action key to refresh the screen if it was deactivated.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 23, 2013, 10:57:38 AM
I've put up the new version under the same link. Changes:
- shops, money
- a few new creatures: bandits, sheep flocks
- auto travel in dungeon corridors
- displaying keybindings at the bottom of the screen, so you don't have to look at the manual
- proper window refreshing and resizing, fullscreen mode toggled by an 'f'

Plans:
- add a goblin city & dungeon, let the player switch sides and become an ally of goblins by killing elves or dwarves
- add more items to the game

Oh, and I'll start a contest for a name for the game :)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on July 23, 2013, 11:38:48 AM
Oh, and I'll start a contest for a name for the game :)

You definitely should use another Polish word, it must sound weird to the rest of the world ;). What about "Oblężenie Szczebrzeszyna"? :D
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 23, 2013, 01:13:50 PM
That's a good one, although I'd like something people can at least pronounce  ;)

Anyway, this gave me an idea to grab the list of roguelike titles from roguebasin and feed them into a markov chain randomizer, the results were weird to say the least...  :o
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on July 23, 2013, 01:32:01 PM
Anyway, this gave me an idea to grab the list of roguelike titles from roguebasin and feed them into a markov chain randomizer, the results were weird to say the least...  :o

I'm pretty sure it would be something like "Tales of Forbidden Rogue Dungeons" ;).
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on July 23, 2013, 01:45:38 PM
This would be among the more normal ones  ;) - my favorite was "Bone Soup"  ;D
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 03, 2013, 04:39:40 PM
Here comes another update. Besides a lot of small stuff, I've added an important mechanic that will later define much of the gameplay. You now maintain a relationship with each of the 3 races: elves, goblins and dwarves. You can be friends or enemies with any of them. Because they all hate each other, by chopping elven heads you can make goblins and dwarves love you, etc.

The plan is to have different skills, quests, and items available from each race, so by your choice you can develop a completely different character.

I'm still unsure what the world layout will look like; will there be many small and interconnected dungeons, one main dungeon or one huge underground level under the wilderness.

And I'm still unsure about the name, this week's idea is "Dwelgo: Friends and Foes". Anyway, maybe someone would like to play  ;D
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Endorya on August 04, 2013, 11:48:58 AM
Ok this is my feeback on your game.

First of all, congrats! I think it is damn awesome as I got easily hooked on it! The first thing I did this morning was turning the computer on to develop my own game, but once realized, I was myself playing another round of Zagadka instead. ::)

Things I really enjoy about it:
- Straight forward and really easy to pick on.
- The quick legend of what you see is marvelous because it saves you so much time! I wish ADOM had this feature.
- Being able to pick up all the equipment a foe was carrying. This is something I always wanted. I really hate non-sense loot where a rat or a cow can drop a sword or a bag of gold.

The one thing I didn't like (I don't know if this is a missing feature or intended but...):
- Underground corridors and areas should be delimited with a '#' instead of invisible walls. Having invisible walls is very confusing to me as sometimes I have to revise certain areas to make sure they had been fully explored.

Bellow is a screen of some things that should be fixed, namely the space reserved for turn counting and the '5' number in the quick key mapping legend, which is suffering from a moderate legibility.

(http://i.imgur.com/IStX79F.jpg)

Anyway, I don't know what is planned for this game of yours and how badly you want to invest time developing it but I think it has potential and with more features it could become one of my favorite roguelike games. I can say for instance that even its current state of developing is far better than Crawl. And this is also prove that you don't need to chose races and roles to make something really neat.

Is there a skill tree planned for it in which you can create your character's role?
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 04, 2013, 01:52:18 PM
Wow, thanks for the feedback :)

You are absolutely right about the invisible walls, they are part of unwanted legacy from years of playing Nethack that I need to get rid of.

My plan is to invest a lot more time in the game while I'm still hooked into it, hopefully making something fun and original. I've been thinking about making a RL for a long time, so now that I have some free time I owe it to myself.

I'm not very fond of complex skill systems and character development in general, so the game will be concentrated more on exploration and interaction with the world. Of course there will be a need to add pre-game choices at some point, but they will be fairly simple.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Endorya on August 04, 2013, 03:09:21 PM
But will the player be a fixed melee adventurer? Not that I'm against it, I'm simply trying to figure out what features will it bear. What do you have planned for it?
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 04, 2013, 03:24:35 PM
You'll start with a very basic skill set (melee basically), and learn new skills from the races you stick with. From elves you'll learn magic and archery, from dwarfs sophisticated melee, and from goblins perhaps ambush, backstabbing, and other tricks.

But these plans are not settled, because a lot of it depends on the story and goals in the game and I haven't figured them out yet.

The next thing I'm concentrating on now is NPC intelligence, so they do something more interesting than brownian motion :). This will let me add dialogs, like "I've been to that village, to get there you need to travel south-east", or quests: "A dwarf named bla-bla killed my friend, please find and kill him".
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Endorya on August 04, 2013, 09:49:08 PM
You'll start with a very basic skill set (melee basically), and learn new skills from the races you stick with. From elves you'll learn magic and archery, from dwarfs sophisticated melee, and from goblins perhaps ambush, backstabbing, and other tricks.

But these plans are not settled, because a lot of it depends on the story and goals in the game and I haven't figured them out yet.

The next thing I'm concentrating on now is NPC intelligence, so they do something more interesting than brownian motion :). This will let me add dialogs, like "I've been to that village, to get there you need to travel south-east", or quests: "A dwarf named bla-bla killed my friend, please find and kill him".
That really sounds interesting! And I'm glad you learn new skills from other NPCs and not just out of nothing. :D Drops us a line whenever you have a new version.

PS: Please take care of the invisible walls ASAP :P
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 05, 2013, 08:37:56 AM
I've uploaded a minor update, with mostly changes under the hood (migrated from Allegro to SFML), and now the game should work much better on slower computers and even wine. Endorya's feature request is also in, and it looks much better indeed, thanks!
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Endorya on August 05, 2013, 09:07:42 PM
First of all let me say the it is incredibly faster now! In the previous version the character would move about 5 tiles per second, now it moves like 40 tiles a second!

There is still an issue with the space reserved for the turn counting as seen bellow. The bleeding message pushed it away:
(http://i.imgur.com/CtwQ6aT.jpg)

It was really neat to see the dead bodies of slain bandits turn to skeletons after a while but what really made my day were the vultures appearing around their carcasses! LOL! This is the type of detail I really enjoy in roguelike games!

Ah! No more invisible walls, now it is perfect! Are you planing to implement food and water requirements?! That would be really awesome. I don't mean like making it as severe as ADOM was in early stages of playing but forcing the player to take some interest on fallen body parts and other corpses would be neat. I always love this survival feature.



Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Oryx on August 09, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
Game looks cool! I'd love to see it with my "ultimate roguelike tileset" :)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: mrrstark on August 11, 2013, 02:47:16 PM
I like the look, it sounds cool. I found the dungeon entrance but couldn't go inside...

I tried > . 5 space all the normal keys non-shifted

I noticed that the stairs (>) made the UI say "Dungeon entrance", but so did the space immediately to the left.
The entrance was generated in a mountain patch, sliced by a road. the entrance was on the road

I went further down the road and found another dungeon entrance that I again couldn't use
I noticed this time that pressing the > key (shift + .) spend a turn, so its like it's trying to move me....
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Endorya on August 11, 2013, 04:08:21 PM
I like the look, it sounds cool. I found the dungeon entrance but couldn't go inside...

I tried > . 5 space all the normal keys non-shifted

I noticed that the stairs (>) made the UI say "Dungeon entrance", but so did the space immediately to the left.
The entrance was generated in a mountain patch, sliced by a road. the entrance was on the road

I went further down the road and found another dungeon entrance that I again couldn't use
I noticed this time that pressing the > key (shift + .) spend a turn, so its like it's trying to move me....

You should open the manual.txt file and have a look at key mapping:

During the game you can use the following commands:
  '5' (number pad) : pick up an item or open a chest
  shift + '5' : pick up an item, choosing how many items to pick if multiple of same type
  'i' : display the inventory
  'd' : drop an item
  shift + 'd' : drop an item, choosing how many items to drop if multiple of same type
  space or '.' : wait one turn
  'a' : use an item that you carry
  'e' : manage equipment (weapon and armor)
  't' : throw an item (after this command you will choose the direction with the number pad)
  'm' : show the message history
  'h' : hide behind an object. Hiding is described further on.
  'p' : pay for items that you've picked up in a shop.
  'z' : change zoom level
  shift + 'z' : zoom out to see the whole world
  page-up and page-down : walk up and down stairs
  control + number pad direction : auto travel on this road, until something interesting happens

;)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 14, 2013, 04:13:23 PM
Oh, I forgot to emphasize this page up/down mapping in the game, as it's not very intuitive. I'm planning to add more help inside the game so I can ditch the manual.

Game looks cool! I'd love to see it with my "ultimate roguelike tileset" :)

I keep looking at your 16-bit fantasy sprite set actually. I think it looks really good, would it be possible to try it out first without buying?
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on August 18, 2013, 07:14:23 PM
First impressions... The game looks very elegant, even more than Brogue. Congratulations.

I was a little disappointed to discover that I cannot move without numpad... Laptop owners would not be very happy with that. Good to have the old USB numpad I once bought specifically for roguelikes :).

In general, some kind of online keyboard help would be appreciated. Some key binding are rather standard, like I for Inventory, but others are not (how to open a chest?). I know that there's a manual in a text file, but I don't like to open external documents to look for help.

Some text does not fit in the screen. With resolution 1024x768 that can be frustrating. When my character has been wounded, the "bleeding" text overlapped with the friends/enemies list. One of those indicators could really go somewhere else, there's still a lot of screen space to occupy!

The combat was pretty good, but I don't see why my enemies started to bleed when I was only punching them with bare fists. The only way to do that in the real world is to punch somebody in the nose, but that doesn't cause immediate death :).
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 19, 2013, 06:19:12 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I can add another key mapping for laptops, it's not a problem. Just tell me which keys you'd like to use for movement. I thought that all laptops have a numpad toggled by the Fn key (macbooks are one exception I know of). I used to play Nethack for many years on a laptop.

The current version has (most of) the key mapping displayed on the bottom of the screen. In the next version I'll upload it will be displayed more conveniently.

I've removed the "bleeding" status as it was not necessary. There might be still overlapping problems, but keep in mind that this is a very early version and I'm not going to put a lot of work into the interface until much later. I'd very much rather talk about mechanics and playability :)

The combat messages and mechanics are *really* naive right now, so I'm surprised no one commented on it before :). I'll try to design something soon, the goal is for it to be more fun than a HP system, but not as complicated as in Dwarf Fortress.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on August 19, 2013, 06:26:11 AM
I can add another key mapping for laptops, it's not a problem. Just tell me which keys you'd like to use for movement. I thought that all laptops have a numpad toggled by the Fn key (macbooks are one exception I know of).

Yes, that's true. But but this "fake numpad" is anything but a comfortable way to control character's movement :). Most of roguelikes support arrow keys that allow to move  in 4 most important directions. The question is how to implement diagonal movement, but that's less important I think.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: AgingMinotaur on August 19, 2013, 07:18:32 AM
re: laptop movement, as long as you can use the arrow keys for orthogonal, it's okay-ish to have to resort to a suboptimal scheme for the diagonals. vi-keys are always an option, but will leave many scratching their heads. I've also found that being able to use the regular number keys works better than one might expect. Some games allow for diagonal movement if you press Shift plus an arrow key.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 19, 2013, 12:43:29 PM
I've uploaded a version with some small fixes, new goodies in the forest and added the arrow keys. Here's a list of things that I want to do before making a public release (besides fixing a few bugs that remain):
- blindness
- poison
- fire
- taverns
- improved mushrooms - addictive and with good and bad effects
- improved fountains - somewhat like in Nethack
- a list with locations that you can travel to (across dungeons)
- titles given by the races for achievements which unlock quests and skill teaching
- a deep main dungeon
- saving the game

Plus the following skills that you can learn during the game:
- knife throwing (goblin)
- crossbow (goblin)
- ambush (elves)
- archery (elves)
- two-handed weapons (dwarfs)
- advanced combat - pushing, switching position (dwarfs)

- digging (dwarfs)
- swimming (elves)
- mushroom knowledge (goblin)

Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 21, 2013, 01:24:10 PM
I've made a quick update (there might be more quick updates as I'm sitting home with a broken collarbone :)) .

- The random start up crashing should be fixed.
- Added 3 basic skills to the game. You can learn each from one of the village elders by chatting to them (if they're friendly, of course)
- The elf lord will help you find the extra locations in the forest.
- Added a 10 level dungeon below the dwarf and goblin caves.
- Added leprechauns, who will try to steal your money.

http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: benmakesgames on August 22, 2013, 02:55:56 AM
just tried this for the first time. I played a couple times... doing a little better the second :P

having only played a couple times, I'm not sure I can give a fair review of the gameplay mechanics, etc. I've been on the look-out for emergent gameplay, and the rat-filled chests have me hopeful :P

but, my first impressions:

the visuals are great. I love-love-love the intelligent legend on the right. it was fun to discover the shift+z map after having run around for a while picking mushrooms :P I appreciate the use of unicode characters.

I always have numlock off, so the controls were mysteriously only partially-functional until I realized why. not sure why it requires numlock (PgUp/PgDn?) but I'm also aware that normal people leave their numlock on >_> so this problem may be unique to me
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 25, 2013, 03:46:09 PM
There is another update. I've added invisibility and blindness (both are rathertricky to integrate into a RL). For now in the form of potions. There is a new location too. There is a Linux executable now in the archive, let me know if you have problems running it.

I always have numlock off, so the controls were mysteriously only partially-functional until I realized why. not sure why it requires numlock (PgUp/PgDn?) but I'm also aware that normal people leave their numlock on >_> so this problem may be unique to me
Well, numlock is needed if you want to use the numpad. If you only use the 4 arrows (not recommended) then everything else should work without numlock.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on August 25, 2013, 05:20:04 PM
Why the knife is not equipped by default? Also, I don't see the point of distinguishing between "inventory" and "equipment". It would be nice to have an option of dropping an item in the inventory window. Why have 3 windows instead of one? That's 2 more commands to memorize :).

Anyway, exploring the area is pretty boring. What is worse, after some time of my wilderness trip the game slowed down greatly without an apparent reason.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 25, 2013, 07:06:01 PM
Why the knife is not equipped by default?
Good question, I assumed that normally you don't walk around with a weapon in your hand (that's why monsters hide their weapons when they're stop chasing you). But you end up wielding it all the time anyway, so I might change my mind.

Also, I don't see the point of distinguishing between "inventory" and "equipment". It would be nice to have an option of dropping an item in the inventory window. Why have 3 windows instead of one? That's 2 more commands to memorize :).
Well, inventory and equipment are different views on the items. It would be hard to merge them, because one groups items by general type, the other by armor slot. I thought about somehow dropping and applying items from the inventory window, but it would require one key press more. I think it's better to have more commands but be able to do things more quickly.

Anyway, exploring the area is pretty boring. What is worse, after some time of my wilderness trip the game slowed down greatly without an apparent reason.
Yeah, it's pretty big and you don't have to explore all of it :) - there are two different ways of finding locations more quickly. I'm aware of the slowdown, most likely it involves pathfinding of zombies that were chasing you and are now returning to the cemetery, pretty straightforward to fix.

Thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on August 25, 2013, 07:43:39 PM
Good question, I assumed that normally you don't walk around with a weapon in your hand

Normally I put my hands in my pockets as I walk, but in a game full of dangerous creatures I can't see a better task for them than to hold a blade ;).

Quote
Well, inventory and equipment are different views on the items. It would be hard to merge them, because one groups items by general type, the other by armor slot. I thought about somehow dropping and applying items from the inventory window, but it would require one key press more. I think it's better to have more commands but be able to do things more quickly.

You don't need to remove the [d] shortcut, just make it available in the inventory window.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 25, 2013, 08:06:02 PM
I'm considering using [d] and [a] to drop or apply a highlighted item in the inventory view, but that wouldn't really reduce the number of commands. On the other hand if there is a [d] command, then dropping an item on [enter] in the inventory view would be kind of redundant and unintuitive. Plus worn items can't be dropped, and they aren't displayed at all in the drop window.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on August 26, 2013, 08:44:27 AM
I'm considering using [d] and [a] to drop or apply a highlighted item in the inventory view, but that wouldn't really reduce the number of commands. On the other hand if there is a [d] command, then dropping an item on [enter] in the inventory view would be kind of redundant and unintuitive. Plus worn items can't be dropped, and they aren't displayed at all in the drop window.

If you are browsing the inventory and decide that you don't need some item anymore, you need to close the inventory, press [d], scroll down through the list (which might be very long) to once again look for the item to be dropped (please note that you may make a mistake by this point if you have more than 1 item of the same or similar name!) and press [enter], right? Now that is unintuitive! As of worn items, they can have "remove" command instead of "drop" when they get selected. I think that would be far less confusing for novice players who might wonder why they can't drop a sword that they hold in their hands. Which is quite weird, by the way.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 26, 2013, 09:53:54 AM
You are right that it can be improved, but I don't know yet how. First of all I don't want to give multiple ways to do one action, as this is very confusing. Thus, all actions on items would have to be done in the inventory window, [drop], [apply], and later [combine]. Maybe there is an elegant way to do this. I also thought about putting equipment and inventory in one window, side to side, as it's pretty wide. But it could look overly complex and be too confusing.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: benmakesgames on August 26, 2013, 03:01:58 PM
Why the knife is not equipped by default?
Good question, I assumed that normally you don't walk around with a weapon in your hand (that's why monsters hide their weapons when they're stop chasing you). But you end up wielding it all the time anyway, so I might change my mind.

maybe you could auto-draw when you see an enemy, and auto-sheath when you enter a town (and there are no enemies), with a way for manually doing either. (a single button to toggle your equipped weapon as sheathed or not?)

I realize this is going a bit overboard with this, but: it could be cool if friendly NPCs reacted differently if you wandered around town with your weapon drawn, as if ready for a fight: civilians might scream and run into their houses; an armed NPC/local hero might approach to ask what you're up to.

I always have numlock off, so the controls were mysteriously only partially-functional until I realized why. not sure why it requires numlock (PgUp/PgDn?) but I'm also aware that normal people leave their numlock on >_> so this problem may be unique to me
Well, numlock is needed if you want to use the numpad. If you only use the 4 arrows (not recommended) then everything else should work without numlock.

I know I've developed games before where you could specify a numeric keypad key ("VK_Numpad_8"? something like that... I realize it's language/library dependent) and it didn't care about the state of numlock (or ctrl, alt, or shift). but it's possible this approach might ruin other things you have set up... I probably haven't ever coded while worrying about reduced-key keyboards, so you're game is doubtless more laptop-friendly than any of mine :P no sense in ruining all that!
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 26, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
Yes, I was planning to do something along these lines. If a monster is moderately hostile, then you might go into an unarmed and non-lethal fight. Or if you arrive in a hostile town then they might knock you out and drag away into a compost heap or something. If you draw your weapon then the fight is for real.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on August 27, 2013, 05:58:21 AM
I realize this is going a bit overboard with this, but: it could be cool if friendly NPCs reacted differently if you wandered around town with your weapon drawn, as if ready for a fight: civilians might scream and run into their houses; an armed NPC/local hero might approach to ask what you're up to.

This may sound cool, but my experience with games says this is just a pure annoyance. Remember Fallout? Or Gothic? I hated it when everyone suddenly became hostile because I accidentally pressed the weapon drawing button. Pure annoyance. From the design point of view it makes no sense. There are no rewards for having a weapon hidden, only penalties for failing to do so.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: benmakesgames on August 27, 2013, 02:12:49 PM
ah, you're right. I was going to say "well, games just need to stop giving you the death sentence for such minor offenses," or something, but even if you could say "oh, sorry, I'll put this away," and things were fine, it'd still be an annoyance. and it is always more fun to be rewarded than punished.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 27, 2013, 02:49:13 PM
Good point, it doesn't make sense to add features just because they're realistic.

The problem of switching or putting away weapons is a major one, because in real life you are very aware of what you're wielding, and in the game it's very easy to forget yourself. Punishing this would be a mistake.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on August 27, 2013, 10:26:16 PM
Good point, it doesn't make sense to add features just because they're realistic.

The problem of switching or putting away weapons is a major one, because in real life you are very aware of what you're wielding, and in the game it's very easy to forget yourself. Punishing this would be a mistake.
Yes, it's important to strike a balance between what's realistic and what's good game design. Personally I'd vote for unrealistic fun over a realistic chore any day. No doubt it's far easier said than done, though.

In any case, based purely on reading this topic it sounds like Zagadka is interesting. I'll play when I get a chance and see if I have any coherent thoughts.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 31, 2013, 05:32:47 PM
There is another update. You can now set things on fire (even a whole forest), wield randomly generated artifact weapons and fight randomly generated unique monsters.

I'm thinking about adding a second game mode: "build your dungeon", like in Dungeon Keeper with the option of taking control of minions for a traditional RL hack&slash.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on August 31, 2013, 05:42:29 PM
I'm thinking about adding a second game mode: "build your dungeon", like in Dungeon Keeper with the option of taking control of minions for a traditional RL hack&slash.

Sounds great. I always loved the idea of Dungeon Keeper, although not the game itself, as it was a real-time game.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on August 31, 2013, 05:46:42 PM
The DK mode would be real-time, as it makes more sense, I think. It would just switch to turn-based once you control a creature.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 02, 2013, 04:57:14 PM
I'd like to know if anyone has managed to play a meaningful game, for example descended to level 10 in the dungeon, killed on of the tribe leaders or cleared the pyramid. If yes, please tell me if you used any special means (invisibility, fire, etc), if any part of the game was unreasonably hard or too easy or annoying. If you played the latest build, can you please send me the log file (log137xxxxx), which is actually replay data, so I can see how you played. Thanks!

A question for everyone who played, could you tell the difference between a first-aid-kit and a potion of healing, and in what circumstances to use which? I'm asking because I'm worried it's a bit unclear.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 06, 2013, 02:57:39 PM
No feedback  :-\

Meanwhile, I'm playing with the idea of a more 3d view:
(http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/screen3d.png)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Vanguard on September 06, 2013, 05:28:47 PM
I'd like to know if anyone has managed to play a meaningful game, for example descended to level 10 in the dungeon, killed on of the tribe leaders or cleared the pyramid.

I never found any of that stuff in the first place.

My adventure involved wandering around and talking to dudes until I found a boulder.  Then I pushed it and it started moving, so I got in front of it and it ran over me and I died.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on September 06, 2013, 07:29:48 PM
I'd like to know if anyone has managed to play a meaningful game, for example descended to level 10 in the dungeon, killed on of the tribe leaders or cleared the pyramid.

I never found any of that stuff in the first place.

My adventure involved wandering around and talking to dudes until I found a boulder.  Then I pushed it and it started moving, so I got in front of it and it ran over me and I died.
Ditto (except for the boulder part). That's why I haven't given any feedback. I haven't found a dungeon, a pyramid, a tribe or even a single non-friendly creature. Just a handful of peaceful guys and a ton of trees in all directions, however far I go. Clearly I'm missing something here but it's good to know I'm not the only one.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 06, 2013, 08:18:06 PM
I didn't realize it's so unobvious. The roads lead to the dungeons. You need to get on a road square and hit ctrl + direction to start traveling.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Vanguard on September 07, 2013, 01:00:28 AM
I, for one, will always choose wandering in the wilderness over following a road.

Edit:

The shift+z zoom function seems to break the game when used underground.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 07, 2013, 08:35:18 AM
You mean it crashes the game?

Here's the 3d idea I'm playing with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvQabmvQhAw&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: akeley on September 08, 2013, 12:38:10 PM
"Zagadka" is one of my favourite words, so I thought I`d have a go ;)

Some random thoughts:
-no save feature?
-is there some experience/leveling mechanic?
-cant see any hit points, is @ colour changing is the only health indicator?
-suppose health potions restore health :) and medkits stop bleeding.  Do I die from being wounded or critically wounded?
-quiver mechanic would be nice. It`s easy with knives since these are top of the list. Rocks and other stuff, not so much.
-chopping off limbs is fun!
-full screen option would be nice
-How do you discover secret doors? Assume it`s just by bumping at walls?
-pardon me if answers to the above are in the manual - I couldn`t find it in my .zip

So I played for a bit and reached lvl 4 of Gnomish Mines,  then got mauled by bears. Overall, it`s a slick & nice looking game, easy to pick up and play. Solid engine! If I were you I`d just keep on adding content, enriching the world and forget the 3D experiment - it looks interesting but also bit messy & confusing perhaps. Add more roads/dungeons, populate the wilderness a bit more, add cool features like that rolling boulder (and elfin kids breaking rat`s necks ;)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 08, 2013, 01:36:49 PM
Solid feedback, thanks.

-no save feature?
It's in the plans, but only once it's really needed.
Quote
-is there some experience/leveling mechanic?
No generic experience or leveling, and I'm not planning any. You develop your character by learning skills, acquiring items, etc.
Quote
-cant see any hit points, is @ colour changing is the only health indicator?
-suppose health potions restore health :) and medkits stop bleeding.  Do I die from being wounded or critically wounded?
The more red you are, the lower the HP. If you are critically wounded, it also means the HP is low and you will die if you don't do anything. Both healing potions and medkits restore health, but the latter with a penalty, but I don't know how to make it more apparent to the player.
Quote
-quiver mechanic would be nice. It`s easy with knives since these are top of the list. Rocks and other stuff, not so much.
Will do.
Quote
-How do you discover secret doors? Assume it`s just by bumping at walls?
By bumping. They will be mostly gone in the next version, only will lead to some treasure rooms that are not on the critical path.
Quote
So I played for a bit and reached lvl 4 of Gnomish Mines,  then got mauled by bears. Overall, it`s a slick & nice looking game, easy to pick up and play. Solid engine! If I were you I`d just keep on adding content, enriching the world and forget the 3D experiment - it looks interesting but also bit messy & confusing perhaps. Add more roads/dungeons, populate the wilderness a bit more, add cool features like that rolling boulder (and elfin kids breaking rat`s necks ;)
I'm glad you like it. I'm planning to make a 0.1 release in two weeks with mostly more content as you said. The 3d works pretty well and will be included as an option, if nothing else it allows playing with just for arrows (many have asked for it). Plus it's always good to experiment, maybe in the future it will develop into more sophisticated 3d graphics.

The contest for a name is still open  :)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on September 09, 2013, 05:49:29 AM
If I were you I`d just keep on adding content, enriching the world and forget the 3D experiment - it looks interesting but also bit messy & confusing perhaps.

Yes, don't waste your time on 3D. It may look cool, but is very confusing and uncomfortable for this kind of game.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Vanguard on September 09, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
The 3d might not be worth the extra confusion, but you have to admit that it looks cool.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on September 09, 2013, 09:21:09 AM
On the other hand... It could be used for promotional purposes. I'd disable it in the release version, but keep it in the code to create cool videos for YouTube from time to time ;).
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on September 09, 2013, 12:40:33 PM
I think the ctrl+direction thing and the importance of roads could do with more emphasis. Both of those things are sufficiently different fromthe majority of roguelikes that they can easily be missed, in my view. So far I haven't been able to defeat an enemy but I've at least found a dungeon, so there's some gameplay going on now.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 09, 2013, 02:09:37 PM
I'll think about giving the travel concept a whole new interface. Perhaps the game should start in a dungeon too, instead of the elf town, so you can start real play quicker.

Meanwhile, you can try out the 3d feature. To me, honestly, it's more fun than the grid view, but you have to get used to it (which takes about 10 mins). You can toggle it with <control + z>

You can also test archery right from the start, although in the future the skill will only be given as a reward. (you shoot with <alt + direction>).

http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on September 09, 2013, 05:27:04 PM
Road travel works well enough once you know what it's about. No complaints there. I just think it's not as apparent as it could be.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on September 09, 2013, 06:14:19 PM
Both healing potions and medkits restore health, but the latter with a penalty, but I don't know how to make it more apparent to the player.

What is the penalty? I noticed that my first aid kit was eventually used up but I didn't manage to discern what the penalty for use was.

Also, now I know how to find dungeons etc I'm enjoying it. I like the simple, uncluttered interface. One of the things I like about Brogue is that almost any items can be used with a generic 'apply' command and the same is true here. I personally find that much easier to use than trying to remember what needs to be quaffed, what wielded, what read, and so on.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on September 14, 2013, 04:34:22 PM
I've played Zagadka almost every day this week. I have a couple more thoughts:

If a dead enemy is on the same space as stairs, it conceals the stairs. This can lead to some frustrating wandering around, trying to remember where you saw the exit.

I like the look of the 3D version but I mostly choose not to use it, for two reasons: the camera swinging round all the time can be a little motion sickness-ish, and it become confusing navigating a dungeon when you're not sure which direction you're facing in. Maybe I just need more practice using it.

In general, I've been increasingly impressed with the game and it's currently one of my go-to roguelikes if I want a short play session or don't feel like fiddling with character creation. I enjoy the way most of the game can be controlled without moving my hands too much. More RLs should condense their keys like that. Also, I like the boulders - mainly because they're dangerous but also give you a warning so you're not just destroyed by them.

Oh, and I've come to appreciate not knowing my health. It forces you to make a judgement call about whether you should heal now or try to tough it out for a couple more turns. I like that.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: TheCreator on September 16, 2013, 05:26:39 AM
Oh, and I've come to appreciate not knowing my health. It forces you to make a judgement call about whether you should heal now or try to tough it out for a couple more turns. I like that.

I didn't. I like to know exactly how many HP I have. This is probably where ultra-realism should be given up. Some people may like it, but what about people with color blindness? My brother, for example, wouldn't be able to play this game, for the health indicator is always YELLOW for him, no matter how high the actual health level is.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 16, 2013, 10:24:35 AM
What is the penalty? I noticed that my first aid kit was eventually used up but I didn't manage to discern what the penalty for use was.
The penaulty is that they take 3 turns to apply (actually your health is restored immediately, and then 3 turns are passed). My intention was that you should only use them away from combat, as opposed to healing potions, which take 1 turn, but are less frequent. But I guess it's really hard to figure that out without paying close attention to the turn counter. Maybe the messages should indicate better what's going on.

If a dead enemy is on the same space as stairs, it conceals the stairs. This can lead to some frustrating wandering around, trying to remember where you saw the exit.
I know, I've been thinking about this for a long time. Most likely the zoomed out view will show the bare dungeon.

Quote
I like the look of the 3D version but I mostly choose not to use it, for two reasons: the camera swinging round all the time can be a little motion sickness-ish, and it become confusing navigating a dungeon when you're not sure which direction you're facing in. Maybe I just need more practice using it.
After some time I also went back to the normal view, but I still think there is potential in 3d.

Quote
In general, I've been increasingly impressed with the game and it's currently one of my go-to roguelikes if I want a short play session or don't feel like fiddling with character creation.
Great, how far did you get? Did you encounter any of the special creatures or found an artifact?
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on September 16, 2013, 06:36:17 PM

Great, how far did you get? Did you encounter any of the special creatures or found an artifact?
Not yet but I'm working on it.  8)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 19, 2013, 01:26:08 PM
I'm going to put the following text as an intro to the game (I know, the depth of the plot is amazing). Could anyone good in English correct any mistakes that I've made or maybe make it sound more "book-like"? Thanks.

Quote
Roaming the land in search for adventures, you arrive in the valley of XXX. The road takes you to a mountainside where a tunnel carved in stone leads you down and into an open cavern. You have entered some kind of a dungeon.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: getter77 on September 19, 2013, 11:11:49 PM
Perhaps go with "search of adventures" instead of "for".
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on September 28, 2013, 11:22:50 AM
Thanks. I've actually changed it to something like this (still pretty lame):

Quote
Dear Deliodolph

      If you are reading my letter, then you have arrived to the valley of Abaranjan. There is a band of dwarves dwelling in caves under a mountain. Find them, talk to them, they will help you. Let your sword guide you.

Yours, Silvester
PS.: Beware the goblins!

I wanted to make a release last week, but I feel I'm still not there yet. The game is pretty playable I think, and (knock on wood) without too many bugs, but it still needs polish and a proper name (did I mention the contest? I promise a good prize if someone comes up with a good name).

Meanwhile, below is another update. The changes are:
- more interesting levels, with caverns and lakes
- changed geography: I moved the goblin town deep into the dungeon, which became linear now
- the tribe leaders now give you quests to kill eachother
- the starting location is moved to the dwarf town so you can get to the meat faster
- scrolls no longer need to be identified, but I gave them mysterious (=latin) names.
- simplified the key bindings, you now use the stairs or drink from fountains with the pick up/enter key.

http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on October 06, 2013, 01:43:31 PM
I've just uploaded a fresh version. Among the new things are portals. You can open them with a "ianuae magicae" scroll. You need two scrolls to open two portals, and then you can travel between them for a limited amount of time. This is useful so you can go back to Dwarf Town quickly after doing a quest. The Dwarf Town shop has one of these scrolls guaranteed. What's interesting is that everything interacts with portals, including thrown items and rolling boulders. Monsters that are chasing you will follow into the portal. As a side effect this can cause a goblin invasion on the Dwarf Town or vice versa :)

I've also started implementing deities. So far there are a number of shrines scattered in the dungeon, and each one is dedicated to a randomly generated god(dess). The interaction with them is yet to be designed. Below is a screenshot.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IYu33qlwXXU/UlFnR-FbqkI/AAAAAAAAIME/SOzsXQUxR8Y/w969-h568-no/zagadka-screen5.png)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on October 14, 2013, 10:31:40 AM
Aha! You also seem to have changed something that always bothered me - I now start with my weapon equipped instead of having to equip it manually every time.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on October 19, 2013, 03:16:29 PM
I've just been playing some more and I realised I haven't seen stairs up to the surface in the newest version(s). Have you removed that whole surface area?
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: RylandAlmanza on October 21, 2013, 10:07:22 PM
Any chance you could provide the source, or compile a 64-bit version?
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on October 24, 2013, 06:14:44 AM
Aha! You also seem to have changed something that always bothered me - I now start with my weapon equipped instead of having to equip it manually every time.
Yeah, I gave up on realism here :)

I've just been playing some more and I realised I haven't seen stairs up to the surface in the newest version(s). Have you removed that whole surface area?
No, it's there. The up stairs are actually the starting location.

Any chance you could provide the source, or compile a 64-bit version?
I can, but for Windows or Linux? I thought you can always run a 32-bit program on a 64-bit system?
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on October 24, 2013, 06:45:39 PM
I've uploaded a new version. You can now pray at the shrines (using enter or numpad-5, just like you interact with almost everything). The gods will respond, and the effects can be useful, funny or dramatic, or any combination thereof (about 30 different things can happen to you, based on what god you're praying to). I've also added a range of new items and monsters. Watch out especially for the Krakens!

http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Samildanach on October 24, 2013, 09:36:25 PM
I can, but for Windows or Linux? I thought you can always run a 32-bit program on a 64-bit system?
I'm on a 64-bit system and Zagadka runs fine for me.
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on October 30, 2013, 04:32:32 PM
Here is my Dungeon Keeper clone idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRxxejoodzk
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: akeley on October 30, 2013, 06:49:55 PM
Looks rather intriguing - and well realised for an "idea".

I feel it could be a huge hit. Roguelikes are trendy, anything Dungeon Keeper is always in demand, and there`s digging. Can`t fail, really ;)
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: miki151 on October 30, 2013, 07:10:17 PM
Yeah, I think there is potential here, especially adding a traditional RL mode. You could possess your minion and defend your dungeon, raid towns on the surface, or send someone your dungeon and let them play a hero. I need a few more weeks of coding  :D
Title: Re: Zagadka, very early but playable
Post by: Zireael on October 31, 2013, 08:09:32 AM
Miki, I suggest you make a separate thread for the Keeper RL and where can I grab it?
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on October 31, 2013, 05:29:23 PM
You can grab it here (there are 2 executables in the archive, one for old Zagadka and for KeeperRL). Beware that it's more of a proof of concept than a game right now.
http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip

I just renamed the thread, though Zagadka still lives. My plan is to merge them now.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Samildanach on October 31, 2013, 05:47:23 PM
The Zagadka exe in that download (the one that includes Keeper) just 'stops working' every time I try to run it. I don't have the previous version anymore. Can I still get it? (Or alternatively, is this a known problem?)
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on October 31, 2013, 06:21:16 PM
I fixed it. Try re-downloading please.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Samildanach on October 31, 2013, 06:58:47 PM
Success! Thanks!
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Samildanach on November 10, 2013, 12:54:59 AM
Are you still working on Zagadka as well as KeeperRL? Zagadka is still one of my go-to roguelikes. I managed to get what felt like quite a long way down. I killed several named enemies. I fell in the end though.  ;D
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on November 12, 2013, 10:11:31 AM
I plan to develop it as part of KeeperRL, a kind of "adventure mode". I was stuck on the story line and didn't know where to take it.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on November 18, 2013, 10:51:42 AM
I've made an update to KeeperRL. It doesn't have the adventure mode yet, but I'll add it in the next release. Still, you can have a lot of good combat with the heroes. They now come from a real village. Find more on http://keeperrl.com.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on November 28, 2013, 08:18:28 PM
I'm about to release a version with doors and traps, the ability to form teams and a lot of improvement in general. If anyone would like to test it a little before I push it out, here it is:
http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/keeperRL_alpha3.zip
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on December 21, 2013, 08:04:13 PM
Playing around with the Oryx tiles...

(http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/keeper_screen81.png)

(http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/keeper_screen91.png)
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Zireael on December 26, 2013, 08:15:44 PM
I love Alpha 4. If only the game didn't have the propensity to spawn up stairs close to down stairs or even dungeon heart...
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on December 26, 2013, 08:44:54 PM
Noted. The up and down stairs are always in the same cavern to force the player to dig to them. I've guaranteed (I think) that the heart and stairs are never in the same open area, but I'll make sure there is a minimum distance too.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on January 11, 2014, 09:07:53 PM
There is an intermediate version that allows switching between tiles and ASCII, fixes a few bugs, and adds experimental mouse support to adventure mode.

http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/keeperRL_alpha4.zip
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on January 18, 2014, 02:50:20 PM
I've uploaded another "intermediate" version.

The keeper mode is now similar to old versions of Dwarf Fortress - you dig into the side of the mountain. The village is on the same level, not too far away. You start by walking around and when you find a suitable spot to dig, you 'U'npossess, and start digging. First you need to place a throne for yourself, after that the game goes similar as before. The minions come from outside.

I've added a few quests in adventure mode. 'C'hat to the village leaders. There are some new magical items and effects.

The download address is same as in the previous post.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on January 20, 2014, 07:47:15 PM
I'd love to get some feedback on the playability of this version, and if it's not good then how I can improve it. I haven't got any detailed feedback for a long time, and it's not good if you're coding alone. Thanks  :)
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: dscreamer on January 24, 2014, 12:02:04 AM
I've never tried this game before, so I thought I'd play a few games and share my thoughts:
(starting in Adventure mode)
-The intro gives a good idea of what to do. The commands all have sensible keybindings.
-I'm not a big fan of the font. Some of the letters (and especially numbers) seem too large, and the font design doesn't seem right for a game.
-Pushing past townsfolk instead of attacking them is a nice feature to have. (I was surprised when I killed a chicken instead of pushing past - I think this might be a bug because it only happens while I'm standing in a door.)
-Scorpions are almost invisible. This might be intentional.
-So far, I've been to 2 or 3 towns to get quests, and I definitely want to explore more and see what's out there. Nice job capturing the feeling of some previous RPGs.
-It would be nice to be able to move to the bottom of the inventory easily by pressing Up while already at the top.
-The ADOM-like equipment slots are nice.
-The list of visible items on the side can sometimes grow too large and overlap the "wielding" line.
-When you leave a shop without paying, the shopkeeper is kind enough to remind you that you've forgotten to pay instead of attacking you. Thanks for that.
-The way vultures work is cool.
-Randomly placing the images on the start screen is cool.
-The wound system wasn't quite clear to me. Can you only be Normal, Wounded, or Critically Wounded? I took a few steps while Critically Wounded and bled out. I guess I should have used a first aid kit immediately.
-There are some spelling errors, like choped -> chopped, peseant -> peasant, and snorring -> snoring.

Overall, I'm glad I decided to play this game - I had fun! (I played several more times while typing this.) It's off to a good start.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on January 24, 2014, 07:12:59 AM
Thanks for the comments!

- I'll think about the font again, although I always thought it's pretty good. I think I've been using it from day 1 of this game.
- The version is missing some textures, so scorpions and the dragon are not visible.
- I'll try to add some extra messages about the wound system. Generally as you said, if you're down to critically you can bleed out.
- Thanks for pointing out the spelling errors.

I'm doing some big changes to the keeper mode gameplay now, so if you'd like to try it out too, I can upload another version in a few days (or you can compile it by yourself from github).
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on January 29, 2014, 04:20:51 PM
Here is another one. I'm getting closer to a next release. The dungeon management is now more complex, you now summon or create some minions by hand, and there are appropriate skills for that, for example necromancy, golem animation, etc. The Keeper can now cast spells and thus can be a strong fighter, it's fun to control him and take your minions to a battle.

You are now encouraged to leave the dungeon and do some killing through the need for "mana". This mechanic is to be improved, I'd like to hear suggestions. The more aggressive you are, the quicker you will be attacked by the heroes.

The adventure mode had little updates this time.

http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/keeperRL_alpha4.zip
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 01, 2014, 09:15:25 PM
Alright I spent a little bit of time on this and here are my impressions:

The title screen should include an explanation of the difference between keeper and adventure modes.
Keeper mode seems pretty cool, but it doesn't explain itself very well.  A good start would be to tell the player they need to use the mouse when they switch over to build mode.  A countdown until the next invasion timer might be nice too.
The inventory button should still do something if you aren't carrying anything, even a simple "You aren't carrying anything!" message lets the player know that the game received their input.
The numeric keypad should allow diagonal movement when num lock is off.
For some reason clicking around on the main menu closes the game?
The ability to fast travel down roads is a nice feature.
You could fit the list of commands on one screen without scrolling if you used your space more efficiently.
The tiles you're using look super nice.
The font you're using looks bad.

Welp, that's everything.  See you later.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 01, 2014, 10:52:56 PM
Some negative, but constructive feedback, thanks.

The title screen should include an explanation of the difference between keeper and adventure modes.
Good idea.
Quote
Keeper mode seems pretty cool, but it doesn't explain itself very well.  A good start would be to tell the player they need to use the mouse when they switch over to build mode.  A countdown until the next invasion timer might be nice too.
Yes, I plan to add more help messages later on. The invasion times depend on your actions, and in the future I plan to make it much more dynamic. In general I want to encourage the player to take initiative instead of only fortifying himself. So far I've found out that open battles are most fun.
Quote
The inventory button should still do something if you aren't carrying anything, even a simple "You aren't carrying anything!" message lets the player know that the game received their input.
The numeric keypad should allow diagonal movement when num lock is off.
For some reason clicking around on the main menu closes the game?
Noted.
Quote
The font you're using looks bad.
Do you mean the text or the characters in ASCII mode?
I've just changed the text font last night, and don't know which one that version used. In any case, since I don't know anything about fonts, would you recommend any that you think is good?
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 01, 2014, 11:55:31 PM
I mean the text used to display messages.  I didn't try ASCII mode.

I don't know exactly how to describe what's wrong with it or how to fix it.  It just looks bad to me.  It looks like a default font that was chosen with no regard for how it fit in with the game's aesthetics.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: guest509 on February 02, 2014, 01:21:38 AM
I took your advice over in the Troll thread. This game has really progressed. I died on level 2 to a Goblin. Thought I had him beat so didn't check HP. Will keep playing.

Had some issues with inventory, when I went to drop something it did not show what I had equipped, having different inventory lists like that depending on the command can be confusing. A minor GUI thing.

I'll keep playing.

EDIT: I did adventure mode.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: guest509 on February 02, 2014, 01:32:01 AM
Playing Dungeon Keeper Mode now. Not sure what to do but it seems very interesting.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: guest509 on February 02, 2014, 01:33:58 AM
Is there any way to restart when you die? Besides having to close and run the game again?
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 02, 2014, 07:03:00 AM
Can you guys re-download the game? It should now have both a different font, and it goes back to the main menu after you quit or die.
http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/keeperRL_alpha4.zip

Had some issues with inventory, when I went to drop something it did not show what I had equipped, having different inventory lists like that depending on the command can be confusing. A minor GUI thing.
Yeah, I guess the window can display equipped items, but they would be grayed- out. Is that what you mean? Btw, you can also drop directly from the main 'I'nventory window.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 02, 2014, 08:19:07 PM
I played your game some more.

The scrolls of combustion are really cool.  I like that the scroll itself bursts into flame and then you throw it or whatever instead of just casting a fireball spell.
Combat seems excessively random.  I don't see a way to improve my chances of winning fights other than to spam consumable items.
Combat seems extremely lethal, usually ending in a few rounds.  This is a good thing.
Poison is ridiculous.  It's good that conditions aren't negligible, but I don't see a good way to prevent myself from being poisoned in the first place.
Sometimes the game crashes during world generation.
It's cool that people get dismembered all the time, but it means that nearly every every enemy killed leaves a corpse which the game describes as "some items."  The only way to know if the pile of items is good or if it's just a gnome's head and torso is to check every pile.  It'd be good to either place gibs adjacent to the main corpse rather than on the same tile.  It'd also be good to let the game name two or three items in a pile before resorting to calling them "some items."
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 02, 2014, 08:29:10 PM
I killed the great goblin and the bandits and cleared out the crypt and I couldn't find anything else to do, so I started killing everyone in the starting town.  The duke cut both of my arms off and I bled to death because I couldn't use a first aid kit with no arms.

Anyway, the impression I get from this game is that it has a good number of fun little features, but weak fundamentals.  The consumable items, dismemberment system, and things like that are all great, but the basic combat system is determined entirely by equipment and luck.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 02, 2014, 09:10:51 PM
By fundamentals do you mean anything else than combat?

Basically I designed it as you said, around consumable items. So you need to use stuff like fire, speed, invisibility, blindness, etc. to combat more powerful enemies. If you play the Keeper then those things are available as spells with timeouts.

Yeah, poison is not very interesting yet, I just added it recently. I guess throwing knives would count as prevention. I'm hesitant to add resistances, because they are just so boring.

I'm planning to add a separate UI element for examining and picking up lying items, so that should solve the "some items" problem.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 02, 2014, 10:41:46 PM
By fundamentals do you mean anything else than combat?

Mostly.  The game also feels kind of directionless.  Like, there a few little side quests out there, but I have to seek them out and I don't know why I'm doing them other than that it's just something to do.  There's no goal.

Note that everything I said in my last few posts only applies to adventure mode.  I haven't spent much time in keeper mode.

Regarding consumables, I think that Brogue the best consumable-based combat system out there.  It's a good game to study if you want to make something similar.  Every potion type is unique and all of them are useful in the right circumstances.  Brogue is fairly strict about how many potions it gives out, and the player's combat options are robust enough that potions are rarely necessary. 

Actually, I think "rarely necessary but always helpful" is the sweet spot you want to shoot for with consumables.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 03, 2014, 10:06:07 PM
I was planning to leave the adventure mode open-ended. I think just hitting the road and seeing what's ahead would be interesting enough. Of course it would need way more locations and quests. I was thinking about doing a persistent world, but that's still light years ahead.

Btw, was it hard to find out who's giving the quests? I was planning to give a hint when you enter a settlement, but it seems that the players are able to figure that out by themselves.

I could also add an AI-controlled Keeper fortress, and the hero would have to recruit a team and attack that. It could also be pretty interesting.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 06, 2014, 07:34:50 AM
I could also add an AI-controlled Keeper fortress, and the hero would have to recruit a team and attack that. It could also be pretty interesting.

That sounds cool.

You could even use it as a pseudo-timer.  The longer you spend looting dungeons, the bigger the Keeper's army becomes.  Take too long and he becomes overwhelmingly powerful or summons the ultimate evil or whatever.  Don't prepare enough and he beats you up by himself.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 07, 2014, 10:14:01 PM
13 yr old playing KeeperRL  :o

Observations: in roguelike mode, he just keeps clicking on things until they're (or he is) dead. In both modes, he wants to collect every item and mine all the resources. But otherwise I see hope in teaching him how to play RLs  ;). In any case, I filled a notebook page with notes on how to improve the game and simplify things.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t1/s403x403/1601333_10203051297193599_1041596545_n.jpg)
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: guest509 on February 08, 2014, 03:35:30 AM
Priceless feedback. I think sometimes old timers won't even see flaws or get tripped by obscure UI things and what not.

I realized this when I couldn't get my gamer friends to try my 7DRL, it was ASCII, it was hard. You don't learn on the way to beating it. You learn by dying a lot...just that concept is hard so the rest has to be silky smooth. If yo are going for wider audience, that is.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 08, 2014, 07:46:51 AM
Yeah, but at the same time he liked that he could kill a stronger opponent by throwing a potion of blindness and sneak attacking.

I had a few friends playing when it was still all Unicode, and it wasn't that bad, although everyone said it's now easier with tiles. I think obscure keyboard shortcuts are the worst. The inventory button has to be somewhere on the screen or best if you just show the inventory somewhere on the side. If you use 'I' for inventory, then the same key has to close the window, not just Escape. That's what two gamers told me, I would never figure it out by myself. If you add little things like that, the game gets easier and easier to play.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 10, 2014, 03:48:58 AM
I'm playing Keeper mode now and I'm having a good time with it.

I like building designing a base tactically so that I have escape tunnels, anti-archer rooms, thin hallways that force enemies into 1v1, etc.

E:

It'd be nice if the keeper had a bit more strength or if corpses were a bit lighter.  Carrying bodies to the necromancy room is inconvenient.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 10, 2014, 05:14:30 AM
Ok, I "beat" keeper mode.

Anything with equipment has an overwhelming advantage over anything without equipment.  Top tier monsters go down easily against enemy redshirts with swords and armor.  The keeper is more than capable of destroying both armies by himself if he can get his hands on some good items.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 10, 2014, 07:46:14 AM
I like building designing a base tactically so that I have escape tunnels, anti-archer rooms, thin hallways that force enemies into 1v1, etc.
Cool. I want to spend significant time to make base building more interesting for next version. Any ideas?
Quote
It'd be nice if the keeper had a bit more strength or if corpses were a bit lighter.  Carrying bodies to the necromancy room is inconvenient.
Hmm, the imps didn't do their job? Or is the problem that corpses outside the dungeon aren't fetched?

Anything with equipment has an overwhelming advantage over anything without equipment.  Top tier monsters go down easily against enemy redshirts with swords and armor.  The keeper is more than capable of destroying both armies by himself if he can get his hands on some good items.
Yeah, that's true. Keep in mind there is a difficulty setting in the menu, you probably played at "easy".
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 16, 2014, 07:20:08 AM
Cool. I want to spend significant time to make base building more interesting for next version. Any ideas?

It seems fine to me.  It'd be nice for the different types of summon spells to be more differentiated and better explained.  Like maybe necromancy minions are weaker and less durable than other types, but they auto-revive after being killed.  Maybe minions could have unique resources they need to consume to survive or level up.

You could add traps but if you do make sure they have some kind of opportunity cost.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: TheCreator on February 17, 2014, 06:53:56 AM
Observations: in roguelike mode, he just keeps clicking on things until they're (or he is) dead. In both modes, he wants to collect every item and mine all the resources.

This is known as the Diablo Syndrome. I've noticed the very same thing when my wife was playing Fame. Any ideas how to fight it? :)

I don't like the Keeper Mode. The idea itself is cool, but real-time gameplay is something I just can't stand. It feels like Dungeon Keeper with much worse graphics. Why not make it turn-based?
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Vanguard on February 17, 2014, 01:09:15 PM
This is known as the Diablo Syndrome. I've noticed the very same thing when my wife was playing Fame. Any ideas how to fight it? :)

Get them to play games that punish rather than reward that kind of behavior.  Strict time limits, heavy penalties for being overburdened, etc.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: koiwai on February 27, 2014, 12:54:17 AM
I played the Keeper mode. I liked the game. I won on hard once, then tried to repeat the build to make screenshots and died in the end (one enemy swordsman was too strong, he is right here at my front door in the screenshot)

(http://i.imgur.com/kXobBQb.png)

My impressions after playing.
You always have choices: what to build first, how to spend mana (learning vs monster spawning). This is great. Unlike DF, where I was always building basically the same fortress with minor variations, here I have to choose what's the next thing to do (taking into account available resources, your minions, and what is already built). It would be great if the map could force you to make certain decisions. (Say, there is a human cemetary nearby, and you benefit from going into Necromancy early on).

I notice that I delay building the Library, first building the lobby, then the storage room, and only then the library. Probably, it costs me later on.

The game flow is very natural and intuitive. You gain resources, knowledge, minions. The development if the dungeon is smooth. Other things are balanced well too. I was usually going for golems (a few stone, a lot of iron, then lava in the late game), and necro (mummies, and later vampires, when I played second time). To support my army, I had ~ 4-5 gnomes and goblins (They both work at the laboratories and the workshops, right?). Golems cannot pick up items when controlled directly, but humanoids can.

I neglected the spellcasting branch. But I was spawning flies frequently to distract enemies from my real army. You can make a lot of flies, and they seem to be useful.

Sending minions to kill civilians and animals is fun, even a single vampire can do a lot, if there is no military units (when the the village is defeated it seems to be the case). The raven is good early in the game to quickly explore the map at ~0 cost.

It seems that for building the dungeon, you need a fixed amount of resources, so you don't really need more than you are given. It would be fun to make a map with more than one mountain. So, you could conquer a nearby village and move to a better and bigger mountain. All games unfold according to the same scenario. Some, even minor, variability will make the game more fun. Random events, maybe. It can be interesting to generate maps that dictate certain decisions and events (for both, the player and AI).

Controlling a group of units is not very convenient. When you return to the Keeper-mode, you cannot select the same group easily. You cannot control two groups. (You can use yellow flags, but it's not the same). Anyway, this is a minor issue. Also, in the unit-controlling mode, movement is a bit sluggish. Probably it's unavoidable, all the mobs must do their moves, but this delay is not a great thing. Maybe, you can try to do some "shortcuts", for example, doing expensive computation like the Field of sight of the mobs not at every turn, but once in a while, especially for those mobs that are far from your minions and are not fighting. For melee fighters, when they are in combat, their perception radius also can be reduced. Some "shortcuts" with pathfinding also, probably, can be done. Not sure if anything of the above is applicable, but just my two cents. Maybe, you find it useful.

Hints at the bottom help a lot. I could understand the game without reading anything. (I don't enjoy reading readmes). I still don't see the purpose of the treasury room though. For buying stuff? For sidetracking greedy heroes? Also, if I want to read about the types of minions (what's the difference between a mummy and a vampire?), where can I do that? Do they have special abilities?

Overall, KeeperRL is a very fun and well-balanced game. Definitely worth playing. Very enjoyable, though sometimes seems to be too fast for my taste. There is an obvious potential for becoming even better. If I can suggest some ideas for the future development, IMHO, the game can benefit from additional random events and map features that affect your strategic decisions (and AI's decisions as well).
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 27, 2014, 06:38:54 AM
Thanks, that's great advice! I never really thought about enforcing/encouraging different strategies on the player. I only tried to give him more choice. I'll think about placing some magical items on the map that shape the black magic and take the player in different directions. Random events are good too. A friend suggested moon phases that affect the strength of minions and other things.

Better team management is definitely high on the list.

About the sluggish movement, did you encounter it in any specific situations or just in general when you control a unit? I thought I had it mostly under control, but it's possible that sometimes the creatures make excessive pathfinding calls.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on February 27, 2014, 08:45:32 AM
Oh if you're compiling yourself, then add "OPT=true" to make arguments, otherwise it's the debug mode and it's very slow.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: koiwai on February 27, 2014, 05:03:00 PM
Oh if you're compiling yourself, then add "OPT=true" to make arguments, otherwise it's the debug mode and it's very slow.
You are right, I simply did make without OPT=true. Recompiled - It works fine now  :D
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on March 21, 2014, 09:59:52 AM
Here is alpha6 rc1. It still lacks some features and there are a few bugs that need to be fixed for alpha6. Major stuff that I've added includes saving games, retiring a fortress and attacking it as an adventurer, a bigger technology tree and more traps. You can only retire after you've conquered the land or if you set "aggressive enemies" to "no" at start. Let me know what you think.

http://blkrs.com/~michal/keeperRL_alpha6_rc1.zip
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: Garadur on March 26, 2014, 03:16:57 PM
Very fun game! I was especially surprised about the speed of the gameplay. [and death of keepers  ;) ] 

One thing that annoyed me, was that the Keeperopedia (was that the name) couldn't be easily controlled with the mouse. I tried to click on "traps" for infos, but it always slipped away. There is not much info there yet, but when there is, it should be fixed.

Speaking of traps: I was expecting the stone traps to be working like in dwarf fortress. Instead they work like in Indiana Jones. Caught me off guard and got me wondering, why half my fortress was standing in my trap passage. (hint: they all got deadlocked by a not completed stone trap)
How the web traps and gas traps work is obvious, and I guess, when an alarm trap is triggered the whole fortress is called to that spot.
But what do the surprise traps do? I'm guessing it's a surprise for everyone. But what kind of effects can you expect?

I love this game, but I still have a lot to learn in how to play it. I haven't tried Adventure mode yet, but Keper mode is awesome! 
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on March 26, 2014, 04:00:10 PM
Thanks for the feedback!

Yes, the UI is very lame. I fixed this issue temporarily, and I'm planning a whole UI overhaul some time later.

The boulder traps work pretty much like in Indiana Jones, yes :D. The surprise traps are pretty straightforward, they teleport you minions from up to a given radius (8) to the site. There is actually some help available if you hover over the menu. I'll put that info in the keeperopedia too.

Let me know if you have trouble with anything else.
Title: Re: KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)
Post by: miki151 on March 31, 2014, 09:07:07 PM
Here is another build. Main changes include capturing prisoners, room building and minion management. I'm getting close to the next release; any feedback, especially about bugs is very welcome.

http://blkrs.com/~michal/keeperRL_alpha6_rc2.zip