KeeperRL (formerly Zagadka)

[miki151]

I've made a quick update (there might be more quick updates as I'm sitting home with a broken collarbone .

- The random start up crashing should be fixed.
- Added 3 basic skills to the game. You can learn each from one of the village elders by chatting to them (if they're friendly, of course)
- The elf lord will help you find the extra locations in the forest.
- Added a 10 level dungeon below the dwarf and goblin caves.
- Added leprechauns, who will try to steal your money.

http://students.mimuw.edu.pl/~makbet/zagadka-bin.zip

[benmakesgames]

just tried this for the first time. I played a couple times... doing a little better the second

having only played a couple times, I'm not sure I can give a fair review of the gameplay mechanics, etc. I've been on the look-out for emergent gameplay, and the rat-filled chests have me hopeful

but, my first impressions:

the visuals are great. I love-love-love the intelligent legend on the right. it was fun to discover the shift+z map after having run around for a while picking mushrooms I appreciate the use of unicode characters.

I always have numlock off, so the controls were mysteriously only partially-functional until I realized why. not sure why it requires numlock (PgUp/PgDn?) but I'm also aware that normal people leave their numlock on >_> so this problem may be unique to me

[miki151]

There is another update. I've added invisibility and blindness (both are rathertricky to integrate into a RL). For now in the form of potions. There is a new location too. There is a Linux executable now in the archive, let me know if you have problems running it.

I always have numlock off, so the controls were mysteriously only partially-functional until I realized why. not sure why it requires numlock (PgUp/PgDn?) but I'm also aware that normal people leave their numlock on >_> so this problem may be unique to me

Well, numlock is needed if you want to use the numpad. If you only use the 4 arrows (not recommended) then everything else should work without numlock.

[TheCreator]

Why the knife is not equipped by default? Also, I don't see the point of distinguishing between "inventory" and "equipment". It would be nice to have an option of dropping an item in the inventory window. Why have 3 windows instead of one? That's 2 more commands to memorize .

Anyway, exploring the area is pretty boring. What is worse, after some time of my wilderness trip the game slowed down greatly without an apparent reason.

[miki151]

Why the knife is not equipped by default?

Good question, I assumed that normally you don't walk around with a weapon in your hand (that's why monsters hide their weapons when they're stop chasing you). But you end up wielding it all the time anyway, so I might change my mind.

Also, I don't see the point of distinguishing between "inventory" and "equipment". It would be nice to have an option of dropping an item in the inventory window. Why have 3 windows instead of one? That's 2 more commands to memorize .

Well, inventory and equipment are different views on the items. It would be hard to merge them, because one groups items by general type, the other by armor slot. I thought about somehow dropping and applying items from the inventory window, but it would require one key press more. I think it's better to have more commands but be able to do things more quickly.

Anyway, exploring the area is pretty boring. What is worse, after some time of my wilderness trip the game slowed down greatly without an apparent reason.

Yeah, it's pretty big and you don't have to explore all of it - there are two different ways of finding locations more quickly. I'm aware of the slowdown, most likely it involves pathfinding of zombies that were chasing you and are now returning to the cemetery, pretty straightforward to fix.

Thanks for the feedback.

[TheCreator]

Good question, I assumed that normally you don't walk around with a weapon in your hand

Normally I put my hands in my pockets as I walk, but in a game full of dangerous creatures I can't see a better task for them than to hold a blade .

Well, inventory and equipment are different views on the items. It would be hard to merge them, because one groups items by general type, the other by armor slot. I thought about somehow dropping and applying items from the inventory window, but it would require one key press more. I think it's better to have more commands but be able to do things more quickly.

You don't need to remove the [d] shortcut, just make it available in the inventory window.

[miki151]

I'm considering using [d] and [a] to drop or apply a highlighted item in the inventory view, but that wouldn't really reduce the number of commands. On the other hand if there is a [d] command, then dropping an item on [enter] in the inventory view would be kind of redundant and unintuitive. Plus worn items can't be dropped, and they aren't displayed at all in the drop window.

[TheCreator]

I'm considering using [d] and [a] to drop or apply a highlighted item in the inventory view, but that wouldn't really reduce the number of commands. On the other hand if there is a [d] command, then dropping an item on [enter] in the inventory view would be kind of redundant and unintuitive. Plus worn items can't be dropped, and they aren't displayed at all in the drop window.

If you are browsing the inventory and decide that you don't need some item anymore, you need to close the inventory, press [d], scroll down through the list (which might be very long) to once again look for the item to be dropped (please note that you may make a mistake by this point if you have more than 1 item of the same or similar name!) and press [enter], right? Now that is unintuitive! As of worn items, they can have "remove" command instead of "drop" when they get selected. I think that would be far less confusing for novice players who might wonder why they can't drop a sword that they hold in their hands. Which is quite weird, by the way.

[miki151]

You are right that it can be improved, but I don't know yet how. First of all I don't want to give multiple ways to do one action, as this is very confusing. Thus, all actions on items would have to be done in the inventory window, [drop], [apply], and later [combine]. Maybe there is an elegant way to do this. I also thought about putting equipment and inventory in one window, side to side, as it's pretty wide. But it could look overly complex and be too confusing.

[benmakesgames]

Why the knife is not equipped by default?

Good question, I assumed that normally you don't walk around with a weapon in your hand (that's why monsters hide their weapons when they're stop chasing you). But you end up wielding it all the time anyway, so I might change my mind.

maybe you could auto-draw when you see an enemy, and auto-sheath when you enter a town (and there are no enemies), with a way for manually doing either. (a single button to toggle your equipped weapon as sheathed or not?)

I realize this is going a bit overboard with this, but: it could be cool if friendly NPCs reacted differently if you wandered around town with your weapon drawn, as if ready for a fight: civilians might scream and run into their houses; an armed NPC/local hero might approach to ask what you're up to.

I always have numlock off, so the controls were mysteriously only partially-functional until I realized why. not sure why it requires numlock (PgUp/PgDn?) but I'm also aware that normal people leave their numlock on >_> so this problem may be unique to me

Well, numlock is needed if you want to use the numpad. If you only use the 4 arrows (not recommended) then everything else should work without numlock.

I know I've developed games before where you could specify a numeric keypad key ("VK_Numpad_8"? something like that... I realize it's language/library dependent) and it didn't care about the state of numlock (or ctrl, alt, or shift). but it's possible this approach might ruin other things you have set up... I probably haven't ever coded while worrying about reduced-key keyboards, so you're game is doubtless more laptop-friendly than any of mine no sense in ruining all that!

[miki151]

Yes, I was planning to do something along these lines. If a monster is moderately hostile, then you might go into an unarmed and non-lethal fight. Or if you arrive in a hostile town then they might knock you out and drag away into a compost heap or something. If you draw your weapon then the fight is for real.

[TheCreator]

I realize this is going a bit overboard with this, but: it could be cool if friendly NPCs reacted differently if you wandered around town with your weapon drawn, as if ready for a fight: civilians might scream and run into their houses; an armed NPC/local hero might approach to ask what you're up to.

This may sound cool, but my experience with games says this is just a pure annoyance. Remember Fallout? Or Gothic? I hated it when everyone suddenly became hostile because I accidentally pressed the weapon drawing button. Pure annoyance. From the design point of view it makes no sense. There are no rewards for having a weapon hidden, only penalties for failing to do so.

[benmakesgames]

ah, you're right. I was going to say "well, games just need to stop giving you the death sentence for such minor offenses," or something, but even if you could say "oh, sorry, I'll put this away," and things were fine, it'd still be an annoyance. and it is always more fun to be rewarded than punished.

[miki151]

Good point, it doesn't make sense to add features just because they're realistic.

The problem of switching or putting away weapons is a major one, because in real life you are very aware of what you're wielding, and in the game it's very easy to forget yourself. Punishing this would be a mistake.

[Samildanach]

Good point, it doesn't make sense to add features just because they're realistic.

The problem of switching or putting away weapons is a major one, because in real life you are very aware of what you're wielding, and in the game it's very easy to forget yourself. Punishing this would be a mistake.

Yes, it's important to strike a balance between what's realistic and what's good game design. Personally I'd vote for unrealistic fun over a realistic chore any day. No doubt it's far easier said than done, though.

In any case, based purely on reading this topic it sounds like Zagadka is interesting. I'll play when I get a chance and see if I have any coherent thoughts.