Temple of The Roguelike Forums

Game Discussion => Early Dev => Topic started by: jasonpickering on January 03, 2012, 05:05:31 AM

Title: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on January 03, 2012, 05:05:31 AM
Hey guys Need some feedback so here is Microgue!!

(http://i44.tinypic.com/x6j400.png)
Try it (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_005.swf)

Basically I am at the point where I need to decide if this prototype is worth pursuing.

Now this build is an excellent vision of what the final game will be. It needs a lot of balance, which seems to be the main problem now, but all the combat is in. The player has two skills. these are built in for now but eventually the player will be able to choose which two they head into combat with.

Controls:
click next to the player to move around, get to the Alter on the 5th island (Game will end there but does not in the prototype just refresh and start over.
all skills cost 1 man and clicking the player opens your skill tab. let me know what you think.

no comment is two small. tell me everything.


eventually this will be an IOS game once I get sounds, music, and all that good stuff. also I will most likely add more content. new enemies/skills/locations. all that good stuff.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Vanguard on January 03, 2012, 06:46:11 AM
I like the core concept.

A larger playing field would allow more tactical options and interesting situations.  Even one more tile in each direction would help.  I don't know if you'd be able to fit that into the small resolution you have to work with, but it's worth considering.

The option to skip the player's turn would be nice.

The fire spell ought to kill goblins in one hit.  Right now it's rarely better than the heal spell, and making that change would bring the two a little closer together while also giving the player a better option against what is currently the most dangerous enemy.

It would be better if the player's initial move off of the bridge was automatic or "free" so it didn't consume the first turn, and that the spot in front of the bridge was always guaranteed not to have an enemy on it.  Right now the player technically has the first turn, but since there's only one move they can make, they can easily be placed in a situation where they take 3 damage before they're allowed to do anything to protect themselves.

Have you considered removing randomness from health and magic pickups?  In the game's current state, they're very important for success, but also they also seem unreliable.  Maybe getting a powerup for one in every five or so kills would be more fair?

Anyway, the game has potential and I hope it turns out well for you.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on January 04, 2012, 01:17:29 AM
 I tried doing a bigger island. Right now its 6 by 4, but if I go any bigger it goes off the screen and not being able to see the entire island really changes gameplay.

yeah i should make the fire spell stronger

I agree with the bridge problem. the player can get stuck real bad.

I love the idea about the health/mana potions

A couple more questions. since the game's main focus is positioning yourself and the enemies, would skills that involve moving or manipulating the enemies be a better plan? A couple suggestions I had were giving the player some type of projectile allowing you to hit any enemy, this would be limited like the Mana. Another Idea was getting rid of Mana making the skills one time use for each island. so basically the player might have skills like throw rock, Skip Turn, Lunge (Attack Enemy and move into their space).
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: rachoac on January 07, 2012, 04:44:32 AM
Hi there! I wish the arrow keys or WASD worked. At least for me on my browser, keyboard navigation didn't work.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: AgingMinotaur on January 10, 2012, 12:29:14 AM
Really cool, actually. I agree Vanguard's ideas make sense.

A problem as it stands, I think, is that it's a bit static. It feels now as if there are situations that become quite deterministic, where the player has little actual choice. Some ideas to consider that might add more strategy:

* Don't allow monsters to skip turn, even if they have no path to player? Make them dance around a bit if the player is hiding behind an impenetrable wall.
* Make healing cost one turn.
* Maybe have several exits from the rooms, and possibly allow monsters to move between them (in some/all cases)? Running away with a trail of monsters might prove deadly, but it would be satisfactory to find a yeti, or to use potions as walls to fend off one horde whilst taking on another.
* Allow (some/all) monsters to use potions? A monster stepping on a red potion could get 1 extra health, for instance. Also: Allow (some/all) monsters to destroy bone walls?
* More monsters of course, but maybe also more terrain types (eg. thorns make you lose one turn when you pass them, destructible obstacles already in place, traps, forest/shadow which make you "invisible" as long as move within them, making monsters stop or wander). In short: More effects to explot (and which the monsters might exploit).

Stray monster thoughts:
* Monsters that grant special movement (move diagonally for N turns, move in one-space jumps for N turns).
* Monster/potion that grants double speed for N turns.
* Monster that eats potions, destroy walls.
* Monster with (seemingly) adverse effect when killed. Killing a jelly makes you lose one turn (which can actually be what you want, sometimes). Multiplying jellies with this effect could prove interesting. Jelly farming would mean a whole new thing (and be extremely dangerous).
* Monster that, when killed, turns the next closest monster (or the next one you bump) into your ally (probably won't be able to leave map).
* "Boss" monsters, which may have special rewards (mana -> 5, raised health limit ...)?
* Giant monster (several tiles big)
* Monster that poisons the ground it has walked on? Other monsters will avoid (treat as wall), player can pass, but it costs 1 health.

Just some loose thoughts. Take what you can use, add salt and pepper. I really like the simplicity of the concept, and think you should stick to it. Adding too many features might take away some charm. But it's still an idea that is really spacious, you can get a really intersting bestiary without adding skill trees, submenus etc.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on January 10, 2012, 05:35:28 AM
AgingMinotaur: Those are some pretty good suggestions. Especially the stray Monster thoughts.

Okay, so it has occured to me that having a definite attack system. I.E. you always hit, and always do one damage. has made the game seem more like a puzzle. I did like this, but I just don't have the skills to build the Algorithm to make the levels work. So I added the posibility of Misses into the combat and it feels more like the mini dungeon crawl I started to make. I have added a Stat called Attack. It determines if you hit an enemy or not. You always do 1 damage though if a hit is successful. I wanted to keep stats to a minimum.

Try It (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_006.swf)

Right now the player has an attack value of 2. the higher that is the better chance you have of hitting an enemy. it makes the game feel very different, which I really dig. It makes it feel like the player has a fighting chance, and when I add something to help their stats (Health and Attack) they will feel like they have much more agency. Right now the numbers break down like this:

Miss Percentage.
Attack 1: %50
Attack 2: %33
Attack 3: %25
Attack 4: %21
Attack 5: %17
Attack 6: %15
Attack 7: %13

I take a random number from the attack number and if its 0 its a miss. So an attack of 3 is 0,1,2,3. so a 25% chance of pulling a zero. the only thing is I like the Curve this gives, but I would like it if it started a little lower. maybe even like at 80%. A monster with high HP, but a terrible attack rate would be Cool. Any Suggestions on ways to code this differently?
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: guest509 on January 10, 2012, 12:23:34 PM
  Hey you actually used that idea? Cool beans man!

  If you want to start the miss rate higher you can do what you are doing but then multiply by 1.5. So 50% miss becomes 75% miss.

You could also have the roll be 1-20 (or 1-12 or whatever) and hits only occur depending on rating. For example Attack rating 3 would hit on a 1-3 but 4-20 (or 4-12) is a miss. But this does not maintain the diminishing power curve.

  Or simply have the Attack rating be a straight %. Starting at 20% to hit and moving up by whatever amount seems appropriate. Lol for some reason games that move up by like 9% or some other odd number make me laugh. This would not keep the power curve though.

  I'm sure as you fiddle with it you'll settle upon something pretty neat.

EDIT: You could always say that 0 or 1 is a miss...so skill 2 ends up being 66% miss. But no monster could be skill 1, or they'd never hit!
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: AgingMinotaur on January 10, 2012, 02:48:58 PM
I must say I preferred the deterministic combat system of the last version. It made me really calculate my strategies in the more interesting rooms. (Eg. "If I first go there and whack the yeti, I'll just have time to go down and kill the skeleton to get a wall, meaning the rat will come at me at the right moment for me to have initiative.") I think this could be elaborated, especially if the playing field gets more complex as the game progresses.

Not to say you can't have a good game with random combat. This is just comparing these two versions as they stand. For the record, I enjoy puzzles and board games ;)

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on February 13, 2012, 01:21:53 AM
Big Update

(http://i39.tinypic.com/20tgpck.png)

So this has changed a lot since its was posted before and I decided to post a build.

Try it out (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_007.swf)

Right now I have a base tower all set up. I am using a combination of static design and random generation to make it easier for the player. Right now its 3 floors of fighting. the 4th floor will be a rest much like the town structure in Shiren the Wanderer. its then followed by 3 more floors of monsters and then the boss.

Also you can shoot a fireball, by clicking the fireball icon in the upper right, and then a direction.

I removed the randomized combat. the player has such little health that when you missed it had a huge effect in the player. I played a game called "You only lived once" and it had a lot of things I liked in the design. so please tell me what you think so far. I am open to any opinions.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on February 13, 2012, 08:34:09 PM
This is a great change!  I love the eyeballs and witches, they add another layer of strategy.  I love how you added the fireball back in.  Great work!
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: AgingMinotaur on February 13, 2012, 10:55:05 PM
Sweet!

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on February 14, 2012, 12:41:34 AM
thanks guys. any suggestions at the moment or anything you would like to see? How far have you gotten into the game? were you able to beat the blob? I hope to make the bosses a little more exciting with special mechanics. I am open to any comments.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Hi on February 14, 2012, 03:24:03 AM
I was confused by level nine because I got to the upstairs three times, just to be teleported back to the same place and then the blob would attack me.
Also because there is no stand still button but the creatures don't always move on there turn. I just jiggle around until they are at the right distance.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on February 14, 2012, 06:03:55 AM
Yeah the last level will actually be the boss monster.

I didn't add a skip turn since I think it's something we could start doing without. Do you think giving the monsters a chance to stand still effects in a negative way though.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: AgingMinotaur on February 14, 2012, 06:11:06 PM
I beat the blob, but not every time. Regarding monsters skipping a turn, I agree with Hi and probably think its best not to allow any actor (player or monster) to skip a turn.

It would be cool if there was more going on in level 4, something like a town, as you mention. Player could spend resources/xp/whatnot to improve magic, heal etc. Also, I'd guess some of the old monsters, like the skeleton, would still be interesting to put in the mix at this point?

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on February 14, 2012, 06:38:22 PM
well some monsters don't fit right now. see my final plan will be that the tower is themed. My goal is to have a normal tower but then later expand with other towers each being of a certain element. so Fire, Ice, Dark, etc. the skeletons will probably be in the dark tower. they will probably be the base guy though and they will just die normaly. I will however add a new enemy to the game called the necromancer. upon his death all skeletons in a level will be destroyed, but he will be very rare.

I want to do like a town or something but haven't thought of anything to put in that thematically makes sense. I was thinking maybe like two alters maybe probably when i do I will give the player something like 3 coins. and these coins can be spent to upgrade your stats and stuff or maybe I will go the binding of issac route and make coins very rare. I still want to add drops at some point only they will probably be limited to health and mana potions.

right now stats are super limited I have Health and Fireball. so the player could purchase more fireballs or more health.  but that would still be pretty good.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on February 15, 2012, 07:05:22 PM
I managed to beat the blob, but I'm pretty sure I cheated.  If you repeatedly click in the general direction you want to go (for example, just click on the stairs repeatedly), you can glide past enemies without giving them a chance to retaliate.  Note this does not work in combat (you cannot double-hit monsters).

Bug!

Those eyeball snap-things and witches can snap/attack you through walls, and you cannot shoot your fireballs through walls.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on February 17, 2012, 05:42:45 AM
small update:
Test it (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_008.swf)

I swapped out the monster wandering AI for an actual pathfinding AI. they come charging at you and its a little easier to plan ahead, but also much harder because they are relentless now. I really need to figure out what I am doing with the Magic system.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on March 02, 2012, 02:05:57 AM
(http://i41.tinypic.com/25i82vt.png)

Hey Guys. Wondering if anyone would like to test out a newer build? I completely redid the movement engine, to make the gameplay a little more tactical and was hoping I could get some people to try it out and then answer a few questions to help me out.

Title: Re: MicRogue - Need some in depth Feedback
Post by: Pueo on March 02, 2012, 03:30:49 AM
I'm always up for play-testing, just let me know  :)
Title: Re: MicRogue - Need some in depth Feedback
Post by: NeedsFoodBadly on March 02, 2012, 09:31:41 PM
I like it but it seems the only workable strategy for this is to move until a monster moves adjacent to you, so you get the first attack.

In that sense, I'm not sure I like it.  However, that being the way the game is made right now if you included a way to rest without moving, it would entirely negate any difficulty in the game.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Need some in depth Feedback
Post by: jasonpickering on March 03, 2012, 01:27:55 AM
NeedsFoodBadly: yes at this point that is kind of the strategy. Although in the newer build I will be giving to my testers, I have updated the move system.

basically an enemy was dangerous if there were an odd number of spaces between you and the monster. a skip turn would make the game easier, but would completely  break the game. So I set out with that in mind and came up with a solution taken from many tabletop RPGs. basically your main character has a Move range and an attack range. usually the move range is 2 and the attack range is 1.

the player can move 1 or 2 spaces in a cardinal direction. this means they need to think about how they move to get the enemies into position. I also upped the tension by giving you no health, so one hit kills you and combat is deterministic. enemies never miss.

enemies have also changed. the current build has 3.

a witch: has an attack range of two and paths towards the character.
a Rat: has an attack range of one and moves every other turn( might swap the every other turn to the witch)
an Eye: has an attack range of one and only moves towards the player, when the player is directly in line with it.

each enemy has different AI, and each needs to be handled differently.

my next goal is the addition of potions. they will be one time use and bestow a bonus until the next turn. some examples are +1 move, +1 Range and Shielded from damage .

also I will be adding Traps. but these are not ordinary traps like in most roguelikes. these will be quite obvious tiles. the first will be a spike trap. it will pop up spikes every 5th turn damaging anyone standing on the tile. this can be good to lure monsters on to the spikes.

finally I am toying with some kind of class/race bonus. where each time a player performs a specific action(like killing an enemy) a bar is filled, when the bar is filled they receive a free potion. it will always be the same type of potion. It might be a combination where race decides the action required and class decides the potion received.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: AgingMinotaur on March 04, 2012, 07:49:59 PM
Quote from: jasonpickering on March 02, 2012, 02:05:57 AM
Wondering if anyone would like to test out a newer build?
You know I'm a fan :) Send me a message if you'd like me to play test it.

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: MicRogue - Need some in depth Feedback
Post by: jasonpickering on April 21, 2012, 05:40:13 PM
so Wondering is anyone would like to test a new build. Its pretty different, with an actual game ending now.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/30jpmhg.png)

let me know if you are interested. Also now a big fan of the name, so I working on changing it. the game is all about grabbing gold now so it will probably be something with loot, spoil, gold, thief. something like that.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Need some in depth Feedback
Post by: Pueo on April 21, 2012, 10:40:09 PM
Quote from: jasonpickering on April 21, 2012, 05:40:13 PM
so Wondering is anyone would like to test a new build. Its pretty different, with an actual game ending now.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/30jpmhg.png)

let me know if you are interested. Also now a big fan of the name, so I working on changing it. the game is all about grabbing gold now so it will probably be something with loot, spoil, gold, thief. something like that.
Yay, I was wondering if you had quit development. I'm open for testing.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Need some in depth Feedback
Post by: jasonpickering on April 21, 2012, 11:37:30 PM
no I took a break to make my 7DRL, but after that I redid the engine and then went right back to work on this, with all the knowledge I gained from the 7DRL.

I will get a build to you with a bunch of questions. I am doing some fixes now so It shouldn't be to long.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on May 16, 2012, 04:00:55 AM
Update!!

game is going along nicely. The entire game loop is in. I have added 10 enemies and I have begun to add the items in. I recently sent out n update to all my testers. if you are interested in trying it out drop me a line and I will get you a build.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Darren Grey on May 21, 2012, 12:36:01 PM
I want, I want!  I still plan on showing some examples of this in my IRDC presentation, if that's okay.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on May 21, 2012, 05:55:04 PM
Darren that is not a problem. I will send you a build. I will see if I can add a screenshot function to it. and if you want I can make you any mockups you might need.

Incidently the newest build is Crazy Different.  the big thing is I changed the attack method. Its more like chess where you instead of just striking an enemy you walk into the enemies place. I did this for three reasons.

1. It gives the Player one thing to worry about. they only need to care about the enemies move, not the ways they move and attack. and the Player only needs to worry about their movement.
2. It allows more exciting Enemies. before you need to make sure you don't move next to a monster and that's about it, but now the monsters like the ninja, who move like knights, have become a huge danger.
3. It makes the Player more aggressive. before you needed the enemies to come to you. you needed to move so that they will take the last step to put them in attack range. With this you feel like you are actually going after the monsters.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on May 27, 2012, 10:19:27 PM
Well I hoped to have a new build for everyone, but I am having a bit of trouble with the AI. The problem is I can either have enemies move into danger, making them easy to kill, or I can make them avoid danger, meaning they run away from you. I am weighing my options and trying to figure out a happy medium, in making the enemies a little more dangerous.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Darren Grey on May 27, 2012, 10:29:30 PM
I am personally happy with enemies being dumb, but with the combination of enemies being dangerous.  There becomes a point where good AI just isn't fun.  For a simple game like this the AI should be predictable and manipulatable.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on May 27, 2012, 10:56:04 PM
Yeah, the other big problem I have is making dangerous combinations of enemies. I have been playing around with ways for the RNG to figure out what enemies to send at you. Now its just randomly selecting them, but if I could figure out how to make them Compliment each other it might be a better idea. The one Idea I had was figuring out what enemies work well together, and using those in a markov chain to build the enemy list for a given floor. but its tought to figure out how to make the enemies dangerous, because its all a combination of their turn order, their placement, and their AI.

Edit: oh also I will probably take overall prgession from one of my favorite Roguelikes, Shiren the Wanderer. I like the progression of Beating dungeons and doing quests opens the game up more. I am hoping to use a combination of that and just progressive unlocks like Binding of Issac.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on May 30, 2012, 04:35:48 AM
Hey guys. New build to try, with a lot of changes.

Try It (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_Public_Build.swf)

So this build tests a lot of new ideas, all thrown in together. So let me know what you like and dont like.

1. I noticed players like to kill all the enemies so now to exit a floor the player needs to kill all the monsters on the level, that switches them to stairs up.
2. Switched the goblin to a dark rat, since they felt so similar.
3. Switched to a smaller map, before the game felt very spaced out.
4. wondering if I should get rid of the Diagonal moving enemies. It would let me make much more exciting levels. or I could at least make a rat that can move cardinal and diagonal.
5. A monster will spawn every 5 turns until you clear a level, so clear in as few moves as possible or you are just making more work for yourself.

Extra:

(http://i47.tinypic.com/zmeff8.png)

finally made some decent art for the traps. basically the trap will remain down like you see the one on the left, then every 5th turn. the Spikes will shoot out, like on the right, and kill what ever is on that square. It will be up to the player to remember when it will spring.

Also if I keep the monster spawning code, I might look into bosses. they will be special monsters, that can not be killed. they will be given a health bar, and killing spawned enemies will lower their HP. so for example you might need to kill 8 rats to kill the RatKing. so you have to run around dodging this King and taking out normal rats.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on May 30, 2012, 02:26:56 PM
Sorry, the link was sending to the wrong build, but its fixed now.

One major problem I need to figure out though is how to correct situations like this:

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2llg7xj.jpg)

(http://i46.tinypic.com/6xyx6a.jpg)

Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on May 30, 2012, 09:58:49 PM
I see the problem in the second picture, but what's the problem in the first?

Also, nice build :)
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on May 30, 2012, 10:52:31 PM
its impossible to kill the brown mouse, because the mice always move together all buddy buddy. I think I had a solution that might work though. A long time ago someone suggested a Push Mechanic. I might try bringing it back. I just need to figure out the implications. it would allow you to separate any monsters that are covering each other. It will take some paper prototyping to figure out.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Paul Jeffries on June 05, 2012, 10:06:45 AM
Played the latest build - very nice!

I got myself into a couple of unwinnable situations like the ones shown in the images, but it always felt like it was my fault for not planning ahead properly so I'm not sure it's not a massive problem provided you don't start the level that way and there is always some way of winning.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 05, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
There usually is always a way of winning. Although I have added the Items back in, which always do one thing to effect the board in some way. Currently the only in Game Items are Freeze, Which Freezes all enemies for 3 turns, and also Swap. which allows you to swap places with another enemy. I am also currently trying slightly larger Dungeons. I created a map with larger dungeons, but that doesn't work as well as I would like because many off screen enemies can be dangerous. So I am trying another build where it has rooms like zelda. they use the current resolution and then the player can move from Room to Room, but Enemies are only active in the Room you start in. here is a mockup

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2e2pes5.png)

the yellow boarder is the screen The player sees. I also might try something with enemies where they do not path to you, but instead just move around following their own AI, but will attack when Adjacent to the player.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on June 05, 2012, 03:13:16 PM
Wow, it's looking nice; much further along than my project. :P I guess I have to start working quicker!
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 05, 2012, 03:53:11 PM
Yeah I found a new game called Cave Noir (a 1991 roguelike for the gameboy  :o ) and it has really given me a shot in the arm for inspiration. I really enjoy its quest structure, and want to try something similar.

Cave Noire basically has escalating gameplay. where there are defined Ends to each playthrough, but each success the End is moved further back.

Example: Quest 1 Level 1 is slay 3 monsters. when you reach 3 a door appears and you win!. now you have access to Quest 1 Level 2. which is slay 4 monsters and the game continues from there.

the quests are
1. Slay Monsters: pretty self explanatory
2. Find Gold: Gold is found on the ground, in chests, and by killing monsters
3. Find Orbs: Orbs are found lying around and in chests, similar to the Gold quest, except orbs take up an inventory slot, and you only have 8 inventory slots. so for each orb you can carry one less item.
4. Rescue Fairies: they have been locked in cages so you must find keys, then take the keys to the cages.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 06, 2012, 03:17:56 AM
Well I got the new Level structure in and I updated the camera Movement. Next up is figuring out the enemies. the main problem is how to do enemies so they don't kill you as soon as you walk into a room. I think this is going to be pretty problematic. I need to figure out

A. How to spawn an enemy so that it doesn't kill you as soon as you walk in a door the first time.
B. How to make is so if an enemy is chasing you it doesnt stop in a place that will kill you the first time.

the most obvious answer is building the rooms very specifically so they have certain enemies. and giving these enemies specific spawn points. Also making it so the enemies don't path Right for the player, but just move around the level with deliberate AI and if they can kill the player they will. I worry that will make the game far to easy though. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on June 06, 2012, 03:48:49 AM
Well, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of that problem is a mini-forcefield around the doors, so that creatures can't go through, or stop where they will kill you.  But that's just me.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 07, 2012, 05:04:38 PM
Thanks I don't know if that would work with some of the levels I have. Although I am going back to the original single screen model. The single screen seems to fit better with my overall game. Although I am very glad I tried the other dungeon styles. So I should have a new build up sometime. I want to do it by this weekend, but I have family coming in to visit so that might not be a possibility.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 11, 2012, 01:12:13 AM
back to the original build. try it out. levels have mice, ninjas, and eyes. Item boxes can be found and either have swap or freeze. Leave all the feedback you want.

Try it Out (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_Public_Build.swf)
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: kraflab on June 11, 2012, 03:08:15 AM
Pretty interesting game...

I tried to get some in game help, not sure if it's there or what.  Would like to know what the pickups (idk even if they are spells or what) do.  Also, when I clicked one to see what it did it required a monster (and there were none) so the game just got stuck.  I tried esc and whatnot, so once again a help pop-up would have been nice.

I also inexplicable died at one point.  The only enemy was a mouse and he wasn't next to me, so I'm not sure what could have happened unless there are invisible enemies or you can lose turns or there is some kind of turn limit =/

Nice game, although I would definitely say puzzle and not roguelike, not that that really means anything.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 12, 2012, 03:45:13 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

Sorry there is no ingame feedback at the moment, and I fixed that bug with the swapping spell that needs a monster to work. you shouldn't be able to sue it if there are no targets.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: kraflab on June 12, 2012, 04:27:41 AM
Another bug:

(http://i.imgur.com/9NB2C.png)
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Darren Grey on June 12, 2012, 09:41:59 PM
Hmm, just realising I forgot to mention that I brought up MicRogue during my talk on the Single Hit Point Model at IRDC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBoYXpbJmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoCVHXi5Vgc

One thing I mentioned in it that I think it worth repeating is that I don't like the items, because you don't really notice them and they aren't so transparent.  The game is focussed on movement and interesting enemy behaviours, and should focus on that.  You should maybe go back to the idea of these special abilities being triggered by enemy death.  Someone else at IRDC mentioned that they thought it was a shame that you shifted the focus away from this.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 13, 2012, 02:58:13 AM
Yeah I agree, the items are rarely used. I am thinking of maybe giving the player one Item, just as a back up if they get stuck. the largest problem with the monster effects, was the setup. The player can use an item when ever they want, but if they needed to kill a specific enemy at a specific time, that's what caused problems.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 13, 2012, 03:41:47 AM
Update!! (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_Public_Build.swf)

so I basically wanted to make killing monsters have more effect on the game. The biggest way to effect the Game of course is changing the game board. So I dropped in 3 enemies and made sure that they changed gameplay for the player each turn.

1. Blob - After killing one you can only move one space
2. Yeti - freezes the board
3. Eyes - Swap with the player.

this build needs some work though (Eyes cant kill you, only swap) and I need to fix the code that limits the amount of monsters spawnable. I also put the Timer Code in to rush the player along some more, but it needs tweaking so its commented out now.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on June 13, 2012, 04:21:17 AM
Nice build :)

I personally like the eyes not being able to kill you, it makes them more of a "team player," where they are sort of this extra thing you have to watch so that you don't get teleported into a blob pack.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 13, 2012, 02:05:17 PM
Yeah, but I think they should still attack you if you are right next to them. I also need to fix the thing that limits monster count, because when there are more then 2 eyes it can get crazy.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 14, 2012, 02:07:58 AM
Okay so here is an Update (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_Public_Build.swf).

1. There is a test timer in the top corner. It counts down each step, but you get +6 each time you go to a new floor. At 0 you die because I haven't come up with a better idea yet.
2. I also added the ninja back in.
3. I added the rats back in and going with the theme of enemy deaths being interesting I went with the idea of the rat swarm. When you kill a rat now. 2 more will spawn on the level.

The next two things I need to decide are:
A. How to do spells. People usually don't use items, but I think if I give the main character one really useful spell that will work better, and be good to get you out of a situation. I just need to figure out how recharging works? automatically recharged per floors? by killing enemies? is it a rare mana potion drop? One time use, make it count?

B. How to do the End Game. I can have the Player reach a certain Level but that seems Anti-climatic. I have two options though. Return so let the player go in and grab something then rush out. It basically is the same as reaching a certain Point, But thematically it works better. I am also pondering the idea of Bosses, but that opens up another can of worms. Although it could be cool, it might be better left for later.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on June 14, 2012, 03:50:11 AM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 14, 2012, 02:07:58 AM
Okay so here is an Update (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_Public_Build.swf).

1. There is a test timer in the top corner. It counts down each step, but you get +6 each time you go to a new floor. At 0 you die because I haven't come up with a better idea yet.
2. I also added the ninja back in.
3. I added the rats back in and going with the theme of enemy deaths being interesting I went with the idea of the rat swarm. When you kill a rat now. 2 more will spawn on the level.

The next two things I need to decide are:
A. How to do spells. People usually don't use items, but I think if I give the main character one really useful spell that will work better, and be good to get you out of a situation. I just need to figure out how recharging works? automatically recharged per floors? by killing enemies? is it a rare mana potion drop? One time use, make it count?

B. How to do the End Game. I can have the Player reach a certain Level but that seems Anti-climatic. I have two options though. Return so let the player go in and grab something then rush out. It basically is the same as reaching a certain Point, But thematically it works better. I am also pondering the idea of Bosses, but that opens up another can of worms. Although it could be cool, it might be better left for later.
I really enjoyed when the plot was, "Delve into the dungeon and get out before the Night comes and the Dark Lord awakens!"
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: ido on June 14, 2012, 12:22:49 PM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 14, 2012, 02:07:58 AM
Okay so here is an Update (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_Public_Build.swf).

Looking better! Definitely a marked improvement over the last version I played a few weeks back.

I also really like how you just restart the game with a single click & couple of seconds upon death, makes dying not seem so bad after all :)
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Ripplez on June 14, 2012, 01:32:24 PM
hi, i checked out this game from the roguelike radio. and i felt compelled to give feedback.

this game is not a roguelike - the random generation of monsters per level does not really justify the label when the combat is deterministic and the level lay-out is fixed at the start.

HOWEVER, this game is amazing! ive already linked it to every friend who could possibly be interested in the game; the simplicity and yet the abstraction involved makes this game incredibly fun and incredibly challenging at times. ive not gone too far but i feel that you have a game here that, if you allowed to be its own thing and not conform to roguelike standards, would be an incredibly beautiful puzzle game. the aesthetics are nice, the gameplay i cant stop gushing about and the music and execution of the game is nice.

i know it probably doesnt count for much and i know that it can be easy to want to build the game the way you originally desired it to go but this idea and this execution is one of the most interesting ive seen in a long time. for how simple it is, it has held my attention far more than anything more complex has

i do have 2 complaints/suggestions though. it feels that some maps are unwinnable, particularly in the sideways I shaped rooms with a rat and another monster. the rat multiplies out of control and two monsters barreling down the corridor makes it almost impossible to deal with it unless a monster moves in random place in the corner and if its the rat, your basicly dead. the other is that the turn timer is actually really good but it feels like it needs a little tweaking. its easy to stockpile it up on easier levels and barring facing some unwinnable situation that needs you to burn turns to pray for a random movement, youll never really deplete. id suggest placing an upper limit on the amount of turns you can save up. the mechanic is good, it creates that tense feeling at times but without a maximum cap, it becomes meaningless later

anyway, sorry to ramble but this game really excited me :P i again want to stress that, as the opinion of a random voice on the internet, your game idea is actually really streamlined and really fun and i feel if you try and make it into something its not, youll lose alot of what makes it really interesting, to me at least. you dont need fancy stuff, the puzzle element of this game shines through and you shouldnt be ashamed of it, it is a success, even if its not the success you wanted.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 15, 2012, 04:28:02 AM
Pueo: the Dark Lord might be going back in with a slight tweak  ;)

Ido: eventually I want to have a way to go back to the menu, but I am trying to figure out a good way. i like the super fast restarts, so i might make it so the player clicks anywhere to continue, and on the menu button goes to the menu, but I want the player to know that clicking any where will restart. I just need to figure that out.

Ripplez: I am glad you like it and felt compelled enough to comment. I will always call it a roguelike personally as that was my original start, but the one thing that confused me was your statement on deterministic combat. I just wondered if you think randomized attacking numbers (Crits, and misses) are a major part of Roguelike combat? the main reason I ask is we had a conversation about that at work today and i was curious. but on to your feedback!

yes the I room although looking good is a bit of a problem. it seems rooms with loops and pillars to run around work much better, so room construction will focus more on that. (This is actually the reason I removed procedural generated levels and opted for prebuilt floor layouts.)

The timer has not been in long, so play testing will be a tweaking process. I did add an upwards limit, and I lowered the amount gained each floor.

Also you keep mentioning making my game something its not. I was just wondering what you meant by that. the best way I can describe this game so far is the same way some people describe sculpting with clay. The sculpture is in there I just need to carve it out. thats what this design process has been, lots of adding and subtracting to test. That said, if you could give me some examples, all feedback really helps.

Okay now on to the actual updates!!.
1. I switched the timer. its no longer a number countdown, but a big large bar across the top.
2. I don't really like the rats , so I am thinking about how to fix that.
3.  thought about a few more enemies
       - Wiizard. he stands still and will shoot a fireball at you, the fireball will move each turn though.
       - An enemy that warps you back to your starting position on death. can be used to get out of trouble
4. Worked on the end game type stuff. more on this later.
5. add a new death message system. so when the player is killed they will know what kills them. I have to make them pretty short though. so I have
       - You have Died
       - Bollocks! death
       - It's a Trap!
       - Curses! a Trap
       - Ran out of time

any ideas for more let me know. Also I am not above silly stuff and references to movies.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Ripplez on June 15, 2012, 06:53:17 PM
i dont know if randomised combat is necessarily what will make a combat system a roguelike-type system but it helps significantly. the reason is that the sequence of misses and criticals and variable damage means that the outcome of any given battle is in question, aka you cannot really know the result of the combat until AFTER you've commited to it. and the fact that you must commit to find out is important because that means you are using your abilities, potions, scrolls , hp and/or turns on a battle that you might not win. it also means that with every miss you make, you're supposed to take into account whether or not the new situation is winnable and if you shouldnt just back off. when the combat is completely deterministic, then the results of a fight/fights are determinable before the fights are made and so, the scenario boils down to a puzzle situation, where you can see the elements and their interactions clearly and be able to plan exactly what move will lead to what result  at every turn. the reason it becomes a puzzle situation is because the only thing that matters now is to pick the exact sequence of moves that will give you the optimal result.

another way of looking at it is that roguelike combat work based on picking options based on incomplete information. whether or not youll hit or not, whether or not more monsters will appear out of nowhere and swarm you, all contribute to a game where you are unable to determine the exact optimal moves for a large part of the game and so you must a) approximate the best sequence of moves to maximise your ability to proceed and b) prepare for alot of eventualities that may occur because you arent quite sure that you can always pick fights on your own terms. this is why deterministic combat and roguelike combat dont generally mix, the mindset is a different. it can be possible but you wont come up with a traditional roguelike id imagine



"Also you keep mentioning making my game something its not. I was just wondering what you meant by that. the best way I can describe this game so far is the same way some people describe sculpting with clay. The sculpture is in there I just need to carve it out. thats what this design process has been, lots of adding and subtracting to test. That said, if you could give me some examples, all feedback really helps."

well because of the deterministic combat, full knowledge of the game board and roughly known monster a.i., there is a) the possibility of solving each dungeon floor optimally. the game does not require you to take risks per se or deal with incomplete information and distances itself alot from conventional roguelike traditions.

however, i dont think this is a bad thing because the game you have right now, as a result of so much determinism,is a very nice puzzle game. the monsters interact with the player movement and game board in interesting ways and the random enemy spawns at the start of the game board keeps it relatively fresh. things like equipment or spells might add something but can also, detract from the feel of the game. because the puzzle elements come from the interaction of the games with full knowledge available and a recurring theme in roguelikes is incomplete knowledge of the situation, it feels like the two game directions are at odds to each other. while i can respect wanting to stick to your original vision, i felt that someone should mention that the game you have right now is very nice in its own right but might not stay that way the more you try and make it more roguelike-ish.



the idea of the rats is fine but the execution can lead to alot of unwinnable situations. a monster where it is incredibly desirable that you actively avoid combat is nice but the rats multiplay insanely quickly at times. theres also the fact that it interacts in weird ways with other elements, it is entirely possible for me to step forward, stab a rat, be swapped by an eye and then be killing by a spawned rat from the kill i just made, all in one round.

one of the nicer things i like is that the fluid and spartan game messages help keep it fast-paced but also make it feel a little on edge, a feeling i like in my games of survival and wits. i feel adding a new death message or shiny bars would detract from the ambience of the game but thats just me.

if you want to show players why they died, you could try highlighting it with a border or something when they die
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 03:52:37 AM
Rippelz: the game now is probably very close to what the final will be. I dont expect much of the combat to change. I removed the rats until I could figure out a good way to add them back in. They are to much of a variable at the moment with the random spawn locations.

Dont worry, the death messages have not changed at all. the text is just different, but still has the nice snappy feel.

anyways

Update:

Okay so the full gameplay loop is in.

Try It (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_Public_Build.swf)

a player starts on level one and upon reaching level 3, they find the treasure. when they grab the treasure they must return to the surface to return it to the king.

I also added 2 rough cuts for the intro and outro sequences. the player will only see the intro when they enter the dungeon, if they die in the dungeon, they will just restart on floor one, I wanted the game to be super fast in the getting the player to be back in the game. the longer it takes, the more likely they are to quit the game. They will see the Outro when they win. so a couple ideas I had and would love feedback on them are...

1. Different Dungeons - will have different enviroments, traps, enemies, and final depths
2. "Quest" Tiers. level up dungeons as you beat them, forcing you to go deeper to find the treasure. (can always play an easier tier)
3. "Artifacts". right now the king says jewel, but this could be a randomly chosen mcguffin to get and I could keep track of all of them for the player. so the player can see which ones they found.
4. Skills. basically the player would have one skill/spell to use. this would replace in game items. Not a lot of people actually use the items though.
5. Different heroes. (This would probably be best if I did the skills idea. each one could have a different skill)

also a final question. I am thinking of replay-ability. Anything you would like to see?
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on June 19, 2012, 04:09:13 AM
It's been said on the podcast in two episodes now - you need a web-site  :P  I recommend Google Sites if you want a simple, straight forward web-page with hosting for files.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 01:14:01 PM
I am thinking about just doing a Blogger for it, something that I can easily edit, and add posts too. Probably once I have a few more games, I will go with a full website.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on June 19, 2012, 02:34:57 PM
Yeah, that can work, and similarly has easy templates you can use.  Does it allow file hosting though?
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 02:39:16 PM
Well I can host through dropbox, I think. That's not a problem. and Microgue.blogspot was open (until I snatched it up). how do you do the hosting for Roguelike Radio?
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on June 19, 2012, 02:59:24 PM
I have a friend generous enough to give me a lot of space.

The nice thing about Google Sites is it includes a good amount of free hosting alongside the web structure and templates et al.  Plus you can have a public directory folder that you can just drop things in (like old builds) and link to it for a web directory view.
Title: Re: MicRogue
Post by: Pueo on June 19, 2012, 04:13:43 PM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 03:52:37 AM
1. Different Dungeons - will have different enviroments, traps, enemies, and final depths
I think that's a great idea, especially along with #3.  Say the king says "Ice Diamond!" and you go "!"  Then you can go into the Ice Cave to get the Ice Diamond.

Quote from: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 03:52:37 AM
2. "Quest" Tiers. level up dungeons as you beat them, forcing you to go deeper to find the treasure. (can always play an easier tier)
I'm not too sure about that one.  It seems against your original(?) goal of a quick/fun game if you have to keep track of tiers and choose a tier to play in.

Quote from: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 03:52:37 AM
3. "Artifacts". right now the king says jewel, but this could be a randomly chosen mcguffin to get and I could keep track of all of them for the player. so the player can see which ones they found.
See #1.

Quote from: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 03:52:37 AM
4. Skills. basically the player would have one skill/spell to use. this would replace in game items. Not a lot of people actually use the items though.
This and #5 (I think) would make a great addition to the game.  I imagine it as the original intro cut, but instead of one hero, you can choose the hero that goes "!" and play as him.

Quote from: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 03:52:37 AM
5. Different heroes. (This would probably be best if I did the skills idea. each one could have a different skill)
See #4.

Quote from: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 03:52:37 AM
also a final question. I am thinking of replay-ability. Anything you would like to see?
I think if you add in numbers 1, 3, 4, and 5, you'll have the perfect amount of replay-ability.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 10:00:13 PM
Pueo: excellent comments as always. I do agree that the 2 seems to take away from the game. my main concern is I want different dungeons and they will have different difficulties. should the player be able to select which dungeon to tackle? what if they want to try and defeat the all Ninja Dojo? what if they want to battle the horrible Ice Castle?

I think having a quickplay button that just randomly selects would be good, but I think letting the player select a specific dungeon would be good to. maybe I can do like 3 Artifacts per Dungeon. that way if the player is missing one artifact it would be easier to find.

Also before Darren beats me up, I am trying to get a Blog up and running. It will always have the newest build up top and then posts below for me to talk about whatever else pops into my head.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Pueo on June 19, 2012, 10:20:56 PM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 10:00:13 PM
Pueo: excellent comments as always.
I try.  :D

I think selecting the dungeon they want to tackle should be allowed, but the default should be random selection.  I also like the 3 Artifacts per dungeon idea.

Does the blog you are thinking of using do (free) file-hosting?  I'm thinking of getting a blog up when I get further along with my project.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 19, 2012, 11:40:39 PM
Wel right now I use drop box. For all my file hosting. It gives 2 gbs free. But you can earn more by doing different stuff Or just It more.

Edit: this gives you a basic idea. I still need toy do all the wPrk before it goes live though
http://microgue.blogspot.com
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on June 20, 2012, 12:20:42 PM
Just tried the latest build.  Was a bit too easy - I would have liked an extra floor or two.  Also, there was a bug in the music on re-entering the dungeon after winning; it repeated the same track on top of the current track.

Some sort of score system might be nice for replayability.  Maybe just a turn counter.

A variety of dungeons would be nice, perhaps just in random sequence.

What's the release plan for this?  It seems a mobile version would be great.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: guest509 on June 20, 2012, 03:47:22 PM
  Hey I played and won. So that means it's too easy, as I am a poor player. :-)

  Great game. Congratulations.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Snargleplax on June 21, 2012, 05:36:15 AM
Played and won.  I like how it's come along!  It's fun figuring out how the enemies work.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 22, 2012, 02:04:43 AM
sadly I have been lazy recently and have not got much done. Its been a bit of a heat wave and I done want to spend time with a hot laptop, so my nights have been reading, and playing my iphone. The next big thing I am going to try and do is add the "skill" I basically want to give the player one power that they can use. I hope that will open up play a bit, but we will see.

Darren Grey: yeah I tend to make things easier for testing purposes. I will probably add another floor, although other dungeons might have different floor requirements. I will fix that bug with the winning, I know what caused it. I am thinking a bit about replayability, and possibly adding in something of a score? or a way for a person to tell that they did better this time, then last time. the problem is I really don't know how to quantify that you did better aside from going with a step counter. I think Keith has a good idea with Auro, where score is based on several factors and points are awarded at the end.

Edit: Also Darren, hurry up and get that score episode of Roguelike Radio up. I like when your episodes coincide with problems I am having in my own game.

As for my release plan its iphone and ipad for now. I probably wont release on android. I also know people would like a pc build so I am thinking about maybe selling it online and then maybe putting a lite flash version up somewhere. keep in mind all prices will be like under $3.

Snargleplax and Jo: thanks, Glad you like it.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: kraflab on June 22, 2012, 04:08:13 AM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 22, 2012, 02:04:43 AM
sadly I have been lazy recently and have not got much done. Its been a bit of a heat wave and I done want to spend time with a hot laptop, so my nights have been reading, and playing my iphone.

Oh god I know that feeling.  I find it incredibly difficult to get anything done during the summer :(

Great game though, I look forward to seeing the content expand a bit, because to me it seems like merely the tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 22, 2012, 01:43:16 PM
thanks. yeah I am hoping to get it finished by the end of July, but we will see. I am trying to get the base game down for now that way I can just add stuff. for the moment though I am forgetting the timer, and the skills and focusing on score design. So the purpose of score is to show you played a better game this time then you did last time. Now the big challenge is how do we define a better game. so I have been playing through game after game and I have been thinking about criteria. This is where I need everyones help. What do you define as a good run?

Speed: beating dungeon with the mimimum amount of steps is ideal, so for each step the player should lose a certain amount of points.

Killing monsters: should killing monsters be a goal? what if some dungeons have it as a goal, while others dont? that would certainly change gameplay. what if you only got points for clearing a floor? what if its killing monsters in succession that nets you points?

Mini-quests: Games like jetpack joyride and infinity blade do this. give random quests with bonuses. what if you enter the dungeon and if you kill less then 10 monsters you get a bonus? over 10 you get a bonus, beat it in a certain time and you get a bonus. you never know what these "Challenges" will be.

treasure: picking up coins adds to bonus. This can be tricky, because its all luck based, depending on where it spawns, how much, where the enemies are, path to the stairs. its a lot of factors, but when you grab a handful of coins it does feel good.

Winning: should winning add to a score? or should you only get a score when you win. usually I would say you should always get a score, but my game is so small, and winning is not terribly hard to achieve I think winning should net a score. that way the player goals go like this. 1. Win the game. 2. win the game with a better score.

well that's it for about now, I am sure I can think of other stuff and if you have any comments please let them be heard. I think score is going to be "Coins" and most likely getting a score of like 100 is fantastic, none of that you scored 10000000 POINTS!!!

Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Pueo on June 22, 2012, 02:17:32 PM
I remember when I played an online or application based Sudoku, your score would start at a set amount (based on difficulty) and decreased with each second.  Certain actions further decreased your score, such as placing a number in the wrong spot. Perhaps you can go that way?  Say every time your character moves, you lose X points, and every time your character kills a monster or goes down a level, you gain X points.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 22, 2012, 02:26:53 PM
I guess a big thing is does the player always know their score? or is it only at the end that the player can see it.

The other thing I worry about is using score, but not making the game endless, there by letting people jsut go for a high score, but an endless version of this game just is not feasible, with the difficulty curve.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: kraflab on June 22, 2012, 08:44:06 PM
I think maybe there should be alternate score modes.  For instance, killing all the monsters would be an option, but perhaps killing none of the monsters would also be a challenge (maybe not with the current group, but in the long term).  You don't want everything to be bundled together because then it is just a question of min-maxing what the best strategy is for points, and you'll end up with everyone doing speed for example.  Of course, you can still get things like killing all the monsters in as few turns as possible, so perhaps the key is just to balance the scoring system adequately.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 22, 2012, 09:34:13 PM
So I added the score in and I don't know how I feel about it. The player starts with 10 coins and loses one for each step. when they kill a monster they get 2 * (Kills ins a row) for that monster, meaning that getting monsters in a line is the best way for high scores.

I think I need to look at the scores purpose though. Am I using it for replayability or am I actually trying to use it for something interesting. Currently I think its the first one. I am not trying to do anything interesting with it its just to add replay. Perhaps I should look into chess scoring. That might give me a good idea of how to proceed forward.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on June 22, 2012, 10:42:06 PM
A bonus for killing enemies seems wrong to me. Perhaps just x coins for beating a level in under y turns. Maybe gold / silver / bronze medals for performance tiers.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 22, 2012, 11:22:07 PM
that could work. I do agree that in playing it the killing of enemies seems like a slow down. I could do the bronze/silver/gold thing for each dungeon, but then I think that once a player gets the gold they will be done with that dungeon.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: st33d on June 23, 2012, 10:58:24 AM
Just tried the latest version. Pretty much nailed the right length for the game. I had barely enough turns to get back to the stairs on level 3 so that was fairly exciting.

Looking forward to replaying for different dungeons.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 24, 2012, 07:53:36 PM
Alright so more work on the game and I have been thinking about score, stats, and difficulty.

The biggest question I need to answer is how long is a game. is it one treasure long? or is it several treasures constantly running in and out grabbing items for the king seeing how many you can do in a row. I think the one Treasure works much better.

Next we need to think about what a good game consists of (Or how I want a good game to be represented). It should be rushing in and out without wasting time. So the main score will probably be steps. meaning monsters are there, to hinder your forward movement.

Next we need to think about Difficulty. Now I think this is the hardest part of the current game. Although in a standard chess game there are stronger pieces. The main thing defining how a dangerous a piece is its overall board location in relation to everything else. This I have no control over, but I think I can get a good curve of difficulty, just be doing a lot of game play. I can also add more enemies to make the game more difficult, and change some rules for specific dungeons.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Snargleplax on June 25, 2012, 05:09:49 AM
I think the length is good, but it would be cool to get some variety from game to game.  Go for a different treasure, fight a different set of monsters, etc.  The treasures could give you some kind of special ability, so you get some fun on the way back out (and this means you can handle slightly tougher monsters).
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 25, 2012, 02:27:42 PM
Yeah I plan on trying to add variety. I am currently working on the next Dungeon which is the Dojo. It will only have ninjas in it, it will be pretty difficult I imagine. I also plan on adding other treasures and giving the player a little screen showing them what treasures they have found. I also need to start adding in more and more new monsters. this should really add to the variety of it. You do mention Tougher monsters. What do you see as tougher monsters or what would make monsters more challenging?
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Snargleplax on June 25, 2012, 06:20:53 PM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 25, 2012, 02:27:42 PM
Yeah I plan on trying to add variety. I am currently working on the next Dungeon which is the Dojo. It will only have ninjas in it, it will be pretty difficult I imagine. I also plan on adding other treasures and giving the player a little screen showing them what treasures they have found. I also need to start adding in more and more new monsters. this should really add to the variety of it. You do mention Tougher monsters. What do you see as tougher monsters or what would make monsters more challenging?

Well, there's no end to the possible movement dynamics like those you've come up with already.  Let me see if I can brainstorm anything good:


Yeah, stuff like that.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 25, 2012, 06:46:07 PM
so is it just that variety adds difficulty or is it more about the giving enemies a bigger range to cause difficulty.

and Also the Idea of The invisible enemy I already have. Its a ghost, and can only be seen when its moving. It Appears, laughs, and then moves to a spot and then vanishes. The player is then required to remember where the ghost is. I want to do a haunted house dungeon that is only invisible ghosts.

the teleportation traps could be fun.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Snargleplax on June 25, 2012, 07:41:25 PM
I think the difficulty comes from having to figure out the novel tactical situations coming out of different combinations of enemies.  Since the number of combinations increases faster with each new enemy you introduce, a bit more variety could go a long way.

Some enemies are just tougher than others; it's hard to characterize why in a general way.  The slimes are pretty simple and easy to avoid.  The chess knight guys get me all the time because I don't notice them, or forget they move like that.  But I've seen them enough times that it feels fair (my fault), so it's good difficulty.

I really like the eye swapper guys.  They don't kill you, they just complicate the tactical situation in ways that are sometimes good and sometimes perilous.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: AgingMinotaur on June 25, 2012, 07:42:57 PM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 25, 2012, 06:46:07 PM
I want to do a haunted house dungeon that is only invisible ghosts.

Great idea. The player would really have to struggle to keep the overview.

For these themed dungeons (like the Dojo you described earlier), are you going to have subclasses of monsters? Eg. other ninja types, who might move like other chess pieces. (Elephant of Chinese chess could work; the shogun you're sent to assassinate could move as the king.)

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 26, 2012, 06:35:18 PM
AgingMinotaur:
I plan on seperating out and figuring otu what enemies work in what areas, Ninjas will probably not be in the Cave and Slimes will probably not be in the Dojo. I also wont have duplicate enemies. There will not be a ninja that moves the same way the a blob does. I might make another ninja, but it will be its own character.

I tried finding stuff on the elelephant. How exactly does it work?

Snargleplax: Yeah I think the game all comes down to board placement, and enemies that change board placement are fantastic for the gameplay. Ninja and Eye Swapper being the Biggest examples.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 27, 2012, 12:17:05 AM
so working on a tileset for a Dojo

(http://i47.tinypic.com/1z6gz86.png)

and some treasures

(http://i45.tinypic.com/a4yhj7.png)
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: kraflab on June 27, 2012, 12:29:23 AM
This is the type of floor that comes to mind when I think of a dojo:

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/308/d/c/Matrix_Dojo___In_The_Works_1_by_Shiaoli.jpg
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Snargleplax on June 27, 2012, 04:21:43 AM
Those are tatami (rice husk mats), traditional Japanese flooring.  And yes, I believe that's what you'd find in most dojos AFAIK.

Of course, you're doing a fantasy game and it's your own anyway, so do what you think is good. :)
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: AgingMinotaur on June 27, 2012, 08:04:17 AM
Quote from: jasonpickering on June 26, 2012, 06:35:18 PM
I tried finding stuff on the elelephant. How exactly does it work?
Briefly, it moves at one-point diagonal jumps. So where the knight is allowed to move from A1 to C2, the elephant moves from A1 to C3. In Chinese chess (xiangqi), the elephant is also not allowed to cross the mid-line of the board (which is 9x10 points big). It stays on its 9x5 half to defend the king, covering only a few points.

Another fun piece in Xiangqi is the cannon. It moves like a rook, but is not allowed to capture in the normal way. Instead, it needs to jump over a single piece standing somewhere on the straight line between the cannon itself and the piece it wants to capture. (Don't know if that's an idea that could inspire MicRogue, just a fun fact, I guess :P)

As always,
Minotauros
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on June 29, 2012, 01:58:28 PM
I dont know if I can do Diagonal. I originally had the goblin, which moved only in diagonals, but the levels can either be very open to allow diagonal movement or like they currently are which really limits the goblin. I think maybe I can go through and redo the pathing code though and it might make it work out a little better. the pathing code I use though is pretty basic so I don't know how much change it can take.

Sadly I think I might be getting rid of the ninja. I will be keeping the monster, but changing his sprite to a different thing. Ninja is just to far out for a standard monster and it always seems to stick out when I make a group of them. so I will probably change it to another animal or monster, but not sure what yet.

also I am thinking of randomly giving the player a character to enter the dungeon as. This might be only graphical or I might go back and and add the skills in. anyways the player character will change but the castle and all that will stay the same, basically this enforces the disposable nature of roguelike heroes and puts it into a little context. Oh that hero died, send in the next one! If this happens though the ninja will make a return as a player sprite.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on June 29, 2012, 04:16:20 PM
I like the idea of multiple random player sprites.

An enemy to consider is a clone that has the same move and attack patterns as the player.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Pueo on July 01, 2012, 06:03:59 AM
Quote from: Darren Grey on June 29, 2012, 04:16:20 PM
An enemy to consider is a clone that has the same move and attack patterns as the player.
I personally don't see this as a good idea.  I envision something like a King v. King stalemate in Chess, where neither can get in range to attack because doing so would jeopardize one's own life.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: kraflab on July 01, 2012, 06:30:26 AM
Quote from: Pueo on July 01, 2012, 06:03:59 AM
Quote from: Darren Grey on June 29, 2012, 04:16:20 PM
An enemy to consider is a clone that has the same move and attack patterns as the player.
I personally don't see this as a good idea.  I envision something like a King v. King stalemate in Chess, where neither can get in range to attack because doing so would jeopardize one's own life.

That would only exist if the enemies were smart :) if you remove all the enemy moves that put them in a spot to die the game would be a bit different :P
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 02, 2012, 05:49:13 PM
Hey guys. small update. I completely redid the collision engine and all the bugs that it brought up. I also added a few more enemies in and I am getting ready to add the next dungeon. I am doing away with the ninja dojo as it has become to problematic in deciding what enemies it would house. so I am back to looking at the current enemies and deciding what goes where. current enemies are

- Blob    - limits your movement
- Yeti    - Freezes Enemies
- Eye   - swaps places
- Rat      - Normal Enemy
- Ninja    - moves like a chess knight
- Snail    - Moves every other turn.
- Bat      - Moves two Like the Player

the Bat might be replaced with a goblin, but I think that might be a little to specific yb sticking with monsters I am able to have a couple different environments for them. rats and bats could be in caves, as well as tombs, snails could be in the forest as well as the caves.

My next enemies will be the ghost which will be invisible except when moving. I also made 6 different character sprites and I am going to try randomly swapping to them each adventure. I thought about just randomly building them out of faces and colored hats, but it causes some yucky combinations. so this works better I think.

I will post a new build soon. Also I need to build out that Blog so I can actually use it.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 03, 2012, 10:09:21 PM
Just had a quick idea and wanted some feedback. When you die after entering should you respawn as a different character or the same one until you go back out to the main menu.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on July 03, 2012, 11:02:31 PM
Different char, so the message of death is reinforced!
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 03, 2012, 11:19:30 PM
That was what I was thinking but I wondered if there would be a disconnect when it's just a new person. I don't want to show a new person entering each death. I like how quick the reset is.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Darren Grey on July 04, 2012, 12:04:46 AM
Ah, very good point, don't want a repeat intro.

Um, can we have two side by side builds to test?  My intuition says it's best to stay with the same char, as much as I'd prefer the variety, but I'd like to try and see.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: kraflab on July 04, 2012, 01:57:02 AM
you could skip the intro but also change the character.  This way you are reinforcing the idea that a lot of adventurers are getting sent to their deaths without explicitly showing the opening again.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: st33d on July 04, 2012, 07:28:37 PM
Consider the game Queens:

http://phuce.com/games/queens/

(It is brutal hard)

The introduction of a different character each time seems perfectly normal so long as the intro is quick.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 11, 2012, 01:39:09 AM
wow, so that took forever to get an update out. Been very busy with the holidays and visiting family so work has been slow, but I finally have a new build. Its at my blog (which I hope to start actually posting on very soon).

My Blog (http://microgue.blogspot.com/)

this one take into account the players win. to reset just hit R and as you play more enemies are added. I actually don't think this is as fun. I kind of like the big anything goes of the older version, where you had no idea what was coming at you. so I might drop it and just give the player a huge amount of content in the beginning

can anyone tell me how stuff works for the binding of issac. Does that game just have a tremendous amount of stuff in the begining? or is their actual progression? aside from like achievements. I always liked the way that game felt with feeling so different. same with the feel of spelunky.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: kraflab on July 11, 2012, 01:57:28 AM
The key with the binding of isaac is just the shear amount of stuff (and the fact that, mechanically, it is quite fun).  Yes, there is a ton of stuff at the beginning, but that continues all the way through.  This also encompasses every aspect of the game, from items to powerups to enemies to bosses.  Every game really is different, and it has that rogue quality where your character will develop and play differently based on what you find and how you use it.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 11, 2012, 02:07:35 AM
that's true, I forgot how crazy different all the power ups are. I don't think I could get that level of randomness in this game though. Which is a shame because I quite like that method.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 11, 2012, 05:55:13 PM
Gathered up another to do list for the weekend. Its about 20 things long most of which is new Enemies. so we will see how that goes.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: st33d on July 11, 2012, 06:04:25 PM
Where did the moves bar go? It's way too easy now.

I think BoI does the random content in batches, also locking some content out. It's a very good system which more roguelikes should emulate (in the same breath I will say that I found the basic movement and shooting painfully unsatisfying - but I'm used to old school shoot-em-ups which are much more generous with bullets and effects, I respect the fact that other people can see past that in BoI).
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 11, 2012, 06:18:49 PM
Sorry yeah the move bar was removed for the time being. I am up in the air about how I want to do it. I was thinking of making it your payment? where the king gives blank coins for finishing in a certain amount of time, with the counter slowly ticking down each step, that way the time it takes to complete can be a bit like score? and people would see 20 coins better then they would 20 steps. I also don't know if I want to do the Bar. It was cool, but I wonder if an actual number counter would work better giving the player exact information, it was always hard to tell with the bar. 

But then I also need to think about how to make the game a bit more risky for the player, letting them take risks for bigger rewards. so its all very loose at the moment and I am just playing the game a lot and taking notes. If you find yourself doing something a lot, or giving yourself small challenges (example: some times I see how few enemies I can Kill) let me know about them.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: kraflab on July 11, 2012, 09:35:44 PM
thought:

Dangerous/risky dungeon branches that aren't necessary for completing the dungeon you are in, but which offer extra gems/coins/whatever

In terms of the time limit / bar, I am kind of against a time limit of any kind.  It's hard to find the right balance (I thought it was astoundingly too easy before, and some people thought it was just enough for instance).
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 12, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
I think the time limit will mostly be for people wanting a good score.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Snargleplax on July 12, 2012, 10:34:52 AM
I like the idea of coins as time.  Reminds me a bit of how arcade racing games give you a certain number of additional seconds every time you hit a checkpoint.  The king should reward you with enough coins to survive the next level, even if you're close to zero; the bonus you get for finishing with extra time/coins is that much extra survivability in the future.  This would put an interesting spin on any opportunities to spend money on equipment, if you wanted to introduce that (don't know what equipment would mean in a 1HP game, but these ideas could apply to other games) -- invest in power so you can survive the enemies, but spend too much and you may lose on time.

Of course, the down side to carrying over your success is that you also carry over your failures, eating up your hard-earned surplus all in one go.  I'd say, though, that's no different from, say, burning through scarce healing potions too early on in BRogue.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 13, 2012, 08:47:06 PM
yeah I haven't figured out how to do the floor pay out yet. Long rant time

One of my problems as a designer I know is worrying way to much, and one of the main things I worry about is making the game harder. so if a player survives and gets to a king how does the game get harder? the way the movement and 1HP system works, adding just a harder person doesn't really work, and actually having only a single enemy type in the beginning makes the game way to hard.

so i guess if I was going to do a continuous game where you use the same character to grab as much as possible, i would have to basically figure out whats enemies are harder and then I am afraid that the game wont be as random. because the player will always know that after getting to the 3 dungeon, they will meet eyes, and all that. granted thats kind of the way it is for most games.  

so my main idea is going to be getting into the dungeon and grabbing treasure and thats it. you are given a score and can try and beat it next time.

The next big problem is score though. points should be awarded for risky behavior, but what is risky behavior in this game. the game board is in such a different layout that there is never a single situation that will always be risky. so thats why the current only idea was rushing through as fast as possible.

Personally I am getting to the point where it feels like I have wrung about all I can out of this particular experiment. The obsessive minimalistic nature I have taken it has painted me into a corner, and I think I need to look about possible setting a release date and finishing this up. I actually think if I could have figured out a good way to do a difficulty curve. I would have just made the game an endless score based dungeon crawler. perhaps I will devote the weekend to trying that out looking at how I can tier off the obstacles presented to the player to give them a more difficult adventure.

Thoughts are more then welcome and also just as a curiosity what do you think is the easiest enemy and what do you think is the most difficult.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: st33d on July 14, 2012, 11:34:48 AM
Quote from: jasonpickering on July 13, 2012, 08:47:06 PM
I am afraid that the game wont be as random. because the player will always know that after getting to the 3 dungeon, they will meet eyes, and all that. granted thats kind of the way it is for most games.

Lets say all of your monsters are cards. We put easy monsters in one pile, then medium monsters into another and so on.

Shuffle the piles separately.

Now start dealing from the easy deck - stop randomly halfway through. Now start dealing from the medium deck - stop randomly halfway through. And so on.

People will have a sense of what they will fight first but won't be able to guess what comes next. They won't even know when it's going to get harder. They won't even know what's been left in reserve. You can even deal from the reserve randomly to throw them off even more - or deal to a blacklist pile for content that the player will never see.

I've been trying this out in an arena platformer at work and it's great for easing the player into total chaos.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: jasonpickering on July 14, 2012, 01:48:54 PM
I will try that this weekend. The biggest problem now is figuring out what tiers to put the enemies in.
Title: Re: MicRogue - Update Jun 19th
Post by: Snargleplax on July 17, 2012, 04:04:24 AM
You could always split them up some.  3 snorknads on difficulty level 4, 7 of them on difficulty level 5, etc.