MicRogue - Update Jun 19th

[kraflab]

The key with the binding of isaac is just the shear amount of stuff (and the fact that, mechanically, it is quite fun).  Yes, there is a ton of stuff at the beginning, but that continues all the way through.  This also encompasses every aspect of the game, from items to powerups to enemies to bosses.  Every game really is different, and it has that rogue quality where your character will develop and play differently based on what you find and how you use it.

[jasonpickering]

that's true, I forgot how crazy different all the power ups are. I don't think I could get that level of randomness in this game though. Which is a shame because I quite like that method.

[jasonpickering]

Gathered up another to do list for the weekend. Its about 20 things long most of which is new Enemies. so we will see how that goes.

[st33d]

Where did the moves bar go? It's way too easy now.

I think BoI does the random content in batches, also locking some content out. It's a very good system which more roguelikes should emulate (in the same breath I will say that I found the basic movement and shooting painfully unsatisfying - but I'm used to old school shoot-em-ups which are much more generous with bullets and effects, I respect the fact that other people can see past that in BoI).

[jasonpickering]

Sorry yeah the move bar was removed for the time being. I am up in the air about how I want to do it. I was thinking of making it your payment? where the king gives blank coins for finishing in a certain amount of time, with the counter slowly ticking down each step, that way the time it takes to complete can be a bit like score? and people would see 20 coins better then they would 20 steps. I also don't know if I want to do the Bar. It was cool, but I wonder if an actual number counter would work better giving the player exact information, it was always hard to tell with the bar. 

But then I also need to think about how to make the game a bit more risky for the player, letting them take risks for bigger rewards. so its all very loose at the moment and I am just playing the game a lot and taking notes. If you find yourself doing something a lot, or giving yourself small challenges (example: some times I see how few enemies I can Kill) let me know about them.

[kraflab]

thought:

Dangerous/risky dungeon branches that aren't necessary for completing the dungeon you are in, but which offer extra gems/coins/whatever

In terms of the time limit / bar, I am kind of against a time limit of any kind.  It's hard to find the right balance (I thought it was astoundingly too easy before, and some people thought it was just enough for instance).

[jasonpickering]

I think the time limit will mostly be for people wanting a good score.

[Snargleplax]

I like the idea of coins as time.  Reminds me a bit of how arcade racing games give you a certain number of additional seconds every time you hit a checkpoint.  The king should reward you with enough coins to survive the next level, even if you're close to zero; the bonus you get for finishing with extra time/coins is that much extra survivability in the future.  This would put an interesting spin on any opportunities to spend money on equipment, if you wanted to introduce that (don't know what equipment would mean in a 1HP game, but these ideas could apply to other games) -- invest in power so you can survive the enemies, but spend too much and you may lose on time.

Of course, the down side to carrying over your success is that you also carry over your failures, eating up your hard-earned surplus all in one go.  I'd say, though, that's no different from, say, burning through scarce healing potions too early on in BRogue.

[jasonpickering]

yeah I haven't figured out how to do the floor pay out yet. Long rant time

One of my problems as a designer I know is worrying way to much, and one of the main things I worry about is making the game harder. so if a player survives and gets to a king how does the game get harder? the way the movement and 1HP system works, adding just a harder person doesn't really work, and actually having only a single enemy type in the beginning makes the game way to hard.

so i guess if I was going to do a continuous game where you use the same character to grab as much as possible, i would have to basically figure out whats enemies are harder and then I am afraid that the game wont be as random. because the player will always know that after getting to the 3 dungeon, they will meet eyes, and all that. granted thats kind of the way it is for most games.  

so my main idea is going to be getting into the dungeon and grabbing treasure and thats it. you are given a score and can try and beat it next time.

The next big problem is score though. points should be awarded for risky behavior, but what is risky behavior in this game. the game board is in such a different layout that there is never a single situation that will always be risky. so thats why the current only idea was rushing through as fast as possible.

Personally I am getting to the point where it feels like I have wrung about all I can out of this particular experiment. The obsessive minimalistic nature I have taken it has painted me into a corner, and I think I need to look about possible setting a release date and finishing this up. I actually think if I could have figured out a good way to do a difficulty curve. I would have just made the game an endless score based dungeon crawler. perhaps I will devote the weekend to trying that out looking at how I can tier off the obstacles presented to the player to give them a more difficult adventure.

Thoughts are more then welcome and also just as a curiosity what do you think is the easiest enemy and what do you think is the most difficult.

[st33d]

I am afraid that the game wont be as random. because the player will always know that after getting to the 3 dungeon, they will meet eyes, and all that. granted thats kind of the way it is for most games.

Lets say all of your monsters are cards. We put easy monsters in one pile, then medium monsters into another and so on.

Shuffle the piles separately.

Now start dealing from the easy deck - stop randomly halfway through. Now start dealing from the medium deck - stop randomly halfway through. And so on.

People will have a sense of what they will fight first but won't be able to guess what comes next. They won't even know when it's going to get harder. They won't even know what's been left in reserve. You can even deal from the reserve randomly to throw them off even more - or deal to a blacklist pile for content that the player will never see.

I've been trying this out in an arena platformer at work and it's great for easing the player into total chaos.

[jasonpickering]

I will try that this weekend. The biggest problem now is figuring out what tiers to put the enemies in.

[Snargleplax]

You could always split them up some.  3 snorknads on difficulty level 4, 7 of them on difficulty level 5, etc.