MicRogue - Update Jun 19th

[jasonpickering]

Thanks for the feedback.

Sorry there is no ingame feedback at the moment, and I fixed that bug with the swapping spell that needs a monster to work. you shouldn't be able to sue it if there are no targets.

[kraflab]

Another bug:

[Darren Grey]

Hmm, just realising I forgot to mention that I brought up MicRogue during my talk on the Single Hit Point Model at IRDC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBoYXpbJmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoCVHXi5Vgc

One thing I mentioned in it that I think it worth repeating is that I don't like the items, because you don't really notice them and they aren't so transparent.  The game is focussed on movement and interesting enemy behaviours, and should focus on that.  You should maybe go back to the idea of these special abilities being triggered by enemy death.  Someone else at IRDC mentioned that they thought it was a shame that you shifted the focus away from this.

[jasonpickering]

Yeah I agree, the items are rarely used. I am thinking of maybe giving the player one Item, just as a back up if they get stuck. the largest problem with the monster effects, was the setup. The player can use an item when ever they want, but if they needed to kill a specific enemy at a specific time, that's what caused problems.

[jasonpickering]

Update!!

so I basically wanted to make killing monsters have more effect on the game. The biggest way to effect the Game of course is changing the game board. So I dropped in 3 enemies and made sure that they changed gameplay for the player each turn.

1. Blob - After killing one you can only move one space
2. Yeti - freezes the board
3. Eyes - Swap with the player.

this build needs some work though (Eyes cant kill you, only swap) and I need to fix the code that limits the amount of monsters spawnable. I also put the Timer Code in to rush the player along some more, but it needs tweaking so its commented out now.

[Pueo]

Nice build

I personally like the eyes not being able to kill you, it makes them more of a "team player," where they are sort of this extra thing you have to watch so that you don't get teleported into a blob pack.

[jasonpickering]

Yeah, but I think they should still attack you if you are right next to them. I also need to fix the thing that limits monster count, because when there are more then 2 eyes it can get crazy.

[jasonpickering]

Okay so here is an Update.

1. There is a test timer in the top corner. It counts down each step, but you get +6 each time you go to a new floor. At 0 you die because I haven't come up with a better idea yet.
2. I also added the ninja back in.
3. I added the rats back in and going with the theme of enemy deaths being interesting I went with the idea of the rat swarm. When you kill a rat now. 2 more will spawn on the level.

The next two things I need to decide are:
A. How to do spells. People usually don't use items, but I think if I give the main character one really useful spell that will work better, and be good to get you out of a situation. I just need to figure out how recharging works? automatically recharged per floors? by killing enemies? is it a rare mana potion drop? One time use, make it count?

B. How to do the End Game. I can have the Player reach a certain Level but that seems Anti-climatic. I have two options though. Return so let the player go in and grab something then rush out. It basically is the same as reaching a certain Point, But thematically it works better. I am also pondering the idea of Bosses, but that opens up another can of worms. Although it could be cool, it might be better left for later.

[Pueo]

Okay so here is an Update.

1. There is a test timer in the top corner. It counts down each step, but you get +6 each time you go to a new floor. At 0 you die because I haven't come up with a better idea yet.
2. I also added the ninja back in.
3. I added the rats back in and going with the theme of enemy deaths being interesting I went with the idea of the rat swarm. When you kill a rat now. 2 more will spawn on the level.

The next two things I need to decide are:
A. How to do spells. People usually don't use items, but I think if I give the main character one really useful spell that will work better, and be good to get you out of a situation. I just need to figure out how recharging works? automatically recharged per floors? by killing enemies? is it a rare mana potion drop? One time use, make it count?

B. How to do the End Game. I can have the Player reach a certain Level but that seems Anti-climatic. I have two options though. Return so let the player go in and grab something then rush out. It basically is the same as reaching a certain Point, But thematically it works better. I am also pondering the idea of Bosses, but that opens up another can of worms. Although it could be cool, it might be better left for later.

I really enjoyed when the plot was, "Delve into the dungeon and get out before the Night comes and the Dark Lord awakens!"

[ido]

Okay so here is an Update.

Looking better! Definitely a marked improvement over the last version I played a few weeks back.

I also really like how you just restart the game with a single click & couple of seconds upon death, makes dying not seem so bad after all

[Ripplez]

hi, i checked out this game from the roguelike radio. and i felt compelled to give feedback.

this game is not a roguelike - the random generation of monsters per level does not really justify the label when the combat is deterministic and the level lay-out is fixed at the start.

HOWEVER, this game is amazing! ive already linked it to every friend who could possibly be interested in the game; the simplicity and yet the abstraction involved makes this game incredibly fun and incredibly challenging at times. ive not gone too far but i feel that you have a game here that, if you allowed to be its own thing and not conform to roguelike standards, would be an incredibly beautiful puzzle game. the aesthetics are nice, the gameplay i cant stop gushing about and the music and execution of the game is nice.

i know it probably doesnt count for much and i know that it can be easy to want to build the game the way you originally desired it to go but this idea and this execution is one of the most interesting ive seen in a long time. for how simple it is, it has held my attention far more than anything more complex has

i do have 2 complaints/suggestions though. it feels that some maps are unwinnable, particularly in the sideways I shaped rooms with a rat and another monster. the rat multiplies out of control and two monsters barreling down the corridor makes it almost impossible to deal with it unless a monster moves in random place in the corner and if its the rat, your basicly dead. the other is that the turn timer is actually really good but it feels like it needs a little tweaking. its easy to stockpile it up on easier levels and barring facing some unwinnable situation that needs you to burn turns to pray for a random movement, youll never really deplete. id suggest placing an upper limit on the amount of turns you can save up. the mechanic is good, it creates that tense feeling at times but without a maximum cap, it becomes meaningless later

anyway, sorry to ramble but this game really excited me i again want to stress that, as the opinion of a random voice on the internet, your game idea is actually really streamlined and really fun and i feel if you try and make it into something its not, youll lose alot of what makes it really interesting, to me at least. you dont need fancy stuff, the puzzle element of this game shines through and you shouldnt be ashamed of it, it is a success, even if its not the success you wanted.

[jasonpickering]

Pueo: the Dark Lord might be going back in with a slight tweak 

Ido: eventually I want to have a way to go back to the menu, but I am trying to figure out a good way. i like the super fast restarts, so i might make it so the player clicks anywhere to continue, and on the menu button goes to the menu, but I want the player to know that clicking any where will restart. I just need to figure that out.

Ripplez: I am glad you like it and felt compelled enough to comment. I will always call it a roguelike personally as that was my original start, but the one thing that confused me was your statement on deterministic combat. I just wondered if you think randomized attacking numbers (Crits, and misses) are a major part of Roguelike combat? the main reason I ask is we had a conversation about that at work today and i was curious. but on to your feedback!

yes the I room although looking good is a bit of a problem. it seems rooms with loops and pillars to run around work much better, so room construction will focus more on that. (This is actually the reason I removed procedural generated levels and opted for prebuilt floor layouts.)

The timer has not been in long, so play testing will be a tweaking process. I did add an upwards limit, and I lowered the amount gained each floor.

Also you keep mentioning making my game something its not. I was just wondering what you meant by that. the best way I can describe this game so far is the same way some people describe sculpting with clay. The sculpture is in there I just need to carve it out. thats what this design process has been, lots of adding and subtracting to test. That said, if you could give me some examples, all feedback really helps.

Okay now on to the actual updates!!.
1. I switched the timer. its no longer a number countdown, but a big large bar across the top.
2. I don't really like the rats , so I am thinking about how to fix that.
3.  thought about a few more enemies
       - Wiizard. he stands still and will shoot a fireball at you, the fireball will move each turn though.
       - An enemy that warps you back to your starting position on death. can be used to get out of trouble
4. Worked on the end game type stuff. more on this later.
5. add a new death message system. so when the player is killed they will know what kills them. I have to make them pretty short though. so I have
       - You have Died
       - Bollocks! death
       - It's a Trap!
       - Curses! a Trap
       - Ran out of time

any ideas for more let me know. Also I am not above silly stuff and references to movies.

[Ripplez]

i dont know if randomised combat is necessarily what will make a combat system a roguelike-type system but it helps significantly. the reason is that the sequence of misses and criticals and variable damage means that the outcome of any given battle is in question, aka you cannot really know the result of the combat until AFTER you've commited to it. and the fact that you must commit to find out is important because that means you are using your abilities, potions, scrolls , hp and/or turns on a battle that you might not win. it also means that with every miss you make, you're supposed to take into account whether or not the new situation is winnable and if you shouldnt just back off. when the combat is completely deterministic, then the results of a fight/fights are determinable before the fights are made and so, the scenario boils down to a puzzle situation, where you can see the elements and their interactions clearly and be able to plan exactly what move will lead to what result  at every turn. the reason it becomes a puzzle situation is because the only thing that matters now is to pick the exact sequence of moves that will give you the optimal result.

another way of looking at it is that roguelike combat work based on picking options based on incomplete information. whether or not youll hit or not, whether or not more monsters will appear out of nowhere and swarm you, all contribute to a game where you are unable to determine the exact optimal moves for a large part of the game and so you must a) approximate the best sequence of moves to maximise your ability to proceed and b) prepare for alot of eventualities that may occur because you arent quite sure that you can always pick fights on your own terms. this is why deterministic combat and roguelike combat dont generally mix, the mindset is a different. it can be possible but you wont come up with a traditional roguelike id imagine



"Also you keep mentioning making my game something its not. I was just wondering what you meant by that. the best way I can describe this game so far is the same way some people describe sculpting with clay. The sculpture is in there I just need to carve it out. thats what this design process has been, lots of adding and subtracting to test. That said, if you could give me some examples, all feedback really helps."

well because of the deterministic combat, full knowledge of the game board and roughly known monster a.i., there is a) the possibility of solving each dungeon floor optimally. the game does not require you to take risks per se or deal with incomplete information and distances itself alot from conventional roguelike traditions.

however, i dont think this is a bad thing because the game you have right now, as a result of so much determinism,is a very nice puzzle game. the monsters interact with the player movement and game board in interesting ways and the random enemy spawns at the start of the game board keeps it relatively fresh. things like equipment or spells might add something but can also, detract from the feel of the game. because the puzzle elements come from the interaction of the games with full knowledge available and a recurring theme in roguelikes is incomplete knowledge of the situation, it feels like the two game directions are at odds to each other. while i can respect wanting to stick to your original vision, i felt that someone should mention that the game you have right now is very nice in its own right but might not stay that way the more you try and make it more roguelike-ish.



the idea of the rats is fine but the execution can lead to alot of unwinnable situations. a monster where it is incredibly desirable that you actively avoid combat is nice but the rats multiplay insanely quickly at times. theres also the fact that it interacts in weird ways with other elements, it is entirely possible for me to step forward, stab a rat, be swapped by an eye and then be killing by a spawned rat from the kill i just made, all in one round.

one of the nicer things i like is that the fluid and spartan game messages help keep it fast-paced but also make it feel a little on edge, a feeling i like in my games of survival and wits. i feel adding a new death message or shiny bars would detract from the ambience of the game but thats just me.

if you want to show players why they died, you could try highlighting it with a border or something when they die

[jasonpickering]

Rippelz: the game now is probably very close to what the final will be. I dont expect much of the combat to change. I removed the rats until I could figure out a good way to add them back in. They are to much of a variable at the moment with the random spawn locations.

Dont worry, the death messages have not changed at all. the text is just different, but still has the nice snappy feel.

anyways

Update:

Okay so the full gameplay loop is in.

Try It

a player starts on level one and upon reaching level 3, they find the treasure. when they grab the treasure they must return to the surface to return it to the king.

I also added 2 rough cuts for the intro and outro sequences. the player will only see the intro when they enter the dungeon, if they die in the dungeon, they will just restart on floor one, I wanted the game to be super fast in the getting the player to be back in the game. the longer it takes, the more likely they are to quit the game. They will see the Outro when they win. so a couple ideas I had and would love feedback on them are...

1. Different Dungeons - will have different enviroments, traps, enemies, and final depths
2. "Quest" Tiers. level up dungeons as you beat them, forcing you to go deeper to find the treasure. (can always play an easier tier)
3. "Artifacts". right now the king says jewel, but this could be a randomly chosen mcguffin to get and I could keep track of all of them for the player. so the player can see which ones they found.
4. Skills. basically the player would have one skill/spell to use. this would replace in game items. Not a lot of people actually use the items though.
5. Different heroes. (This would probably be best if I did the skills idea. each one could have a different skill)

also a final question. I am thinking of replay-ability. Anything you would like to see?

[Darren Grey]

It's been said on the podcast in two episodes now - you need a web-site    I recommend Google Sites if you want a simple, straight forward web-page with hosting for files.