Author Topic: A peaceful dungeon exploration game  (Read 47531 times)

Etinarg

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A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« on: January 11, 2010, 03:33:58 PM »
I am pondering about a dungeon exploration game, but I want no combat there. Now it seems pretty boring ... and most of the RPG game design talk somehow involves combat, for example the major way to get items or gold is killing monsters usually.

(Peaceful = no killing of things, so no hunting of animals either).

What could be in a peaceful dungeon exploration game, to make it interesting?


RantingRodent

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2010, 05:43:43 PM »
Traps and puzzles are where you'll want to focus your effort, I think.

Etinarg

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2010, 08:09:05 PM »
Puzzles are on my list. Although most puzzles seem to be a bit boring eventually, too. A few ideas I have collected here:

http://www.funkelwerk.de/library/index.php?n=Library.Puzzles

For traps I'd like to do something likes this:

http://www.funkelwerk.de/library/index.php?n=Library.Traps

I'm wondering if there is more to do in an exploration game? Surely finding treasures and rewards will be fine already, but maybe it can be wrapped more nicely :)

AmnEn

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2010, 09:47:27 PM »
Interesting Idea and I hope you can pull it off.
I'm not entirely sure Traps and Puzzles can work in a Roguelike though. Apart from some random damage when you walk upon one. At least not in a random environment. Puzzles have to be cleverly thought through for them to be actually fun.
For example:
 I didn't quite like the random puzzles from Bioshock, they were randomly generated but still provided some challenge because of the time restraint. In a turn based roguelike, time isn't a factor. However, once you have ample time to think, easy and random puzzles turn dull. So if you can pull it off, I'll be as impressed as I'm intrigued at the moment.

Still, reading through your library, I had some sort of silly idea about this.
Silly Idea:
Don't create randomized maps, instead provide a very simplistic Level Editor. Award score based on the amount of turns it took the player to get to the final treasure and back out to the surface, and perhaps quantity of other loot.
This way, players could create dungeons of their own with a system of complex traps and puzzles to their liking for others to explore. The others can race through it and try to earn as much a possible in as little time as possible, competing for score. For extra bonus points, some sort of demo playback system would make it so much more interesting for the creator, to see how someone else deals with the dungeon creation.

Etinarg

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2010, 10:45:12 PM »
Don't create randomized maps, instead provide a very simplistic Level Editor. Award score based on the amount of turns it took the player to get to the final treasure and back out to the surface, and perhaps quantity of other loot.
This way, players could create dungeons of their own with a system of complex traps and puzzles to their liking for others to explore. The others can race through it and try to earn as much a possible in as little time as possible, competing for score.

This is a very interesting idea :) Some people like creation as much as others like to play through the created playfields, and I'm sure this will be good fun for a lot of people.

I don't know if I can pull it off. I'm wrestling with this idea since a long time and so far I always ended with the feeling "this will be boring". But fighting games are so plenty now, and so manifold that I don't think the world needs another one.

An idea from a former project was to have hostile environments (very cold/hot, bad air ...) and the player first must find or assemble equipment to survive there. This is just a more elaborate puzzle, but it can be done more flexible than "find the key" or "find the right answer to the riddle" puzzles - these are just "right" or "wrong". The environmental challenges might allow players to stay there for a while, even without special equipment, but not very long. So there might be a choice - try to speed-run and hope you find something quickly, or try to play safe and assemble helpful equipment.

Could also be interesting to generate random "treasure maps" - parchments with notes and sketches - and the player tries to follow them to find big hidden treasures. Of course protected by traps and obstacles.

It's difficult to think outside the box. But I keep hoping that I can create something interesting.

Fenrir

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2010, 11:32:19 PM »
An idea from a former project was to have hostile environments (very cold/hot, bad air ...) and the player first must find or assemble equipment to survive there.
I like this idea. I like this idea very much.

getter77

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2010, 11:40:45 PM »
Smacking my head but I just can't think of the name of the Roguelike'ish game that is based largely on pacifism and such.  Could swear it is in my bookmarks somewhere, very flowery language...would be well worth delving at if I could think of it...arrgh.

FOUND IT!  The Minstrel's Song   Perhaps not quite in line with your own visions, but worth a gander to see how some things pan out.  Very....wrought...it would seem:

http://jonathanscorner.com/download/download.html
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 03:02:35 AM by getter77 »
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ido

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2010, 10:03:07 AM »
I hate to be the one pissing on your party, but in my experience these things don't work for very long.  Overused game mechanics are overused for a reason ;)

Would be a great *addition* to combat though.

-Ido.

Etinarg

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2010, 10:26:18 AM »
Yes, there is a big chance that it won't be very interesting. But I'm tired of all the fighting in games. If the idea doesn't work, then ... it doesn't :P

It's not a problem. Not as long as it was fun to work on it, and while I can learn something while working on it ;) That's the good side of hobby projects, there is no customer to please, but onself. I still hope I can make something that I can enjoy, and that some other people will enjoy too.

To be honest, most of my projects ended on some tech-demo level, and didn't become real games. I'm not a particularly skilled game designer, and I'll depend very much on help from other people with such.

@getter77

Thanks for the link! I'll check it out, once I have a little bit more of free time again, which might be not earlier than tomorrow evening ...

ido

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2010, 12:47:25 PM »
To be honest, most of my projects ended on some tech-demo level, and didn't become real games.

That's a pretty common problem with me as well, it mostly stops being interesting once the programming heavy-lifting is done :)

Your past projects seem very interesting, and simutrans in particular looks very far along.

-Ido.

Etinarg

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2010, 01:07:01 PM »
Simutrans is quite a success. I guess it worked since it's been inspired by an older game that I enjoyed to play for many hours, and it was pretty clear how to enhance the existing game ideas. So, it was more a challenge for programming skills than design skills.

I must say though, that Simutrans wouldn't be what it is today if Prissi had not taken over in 2005. I had worked too long on the project, and needed a break. Prissi and some more developed Simutrans since, and made it the success that it is today.

Since a while I'm back and try to get a grip on game programming again. But on a much more relaxed level than before, and with a focus on smaller, easier projects.

jaydg

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2010, 09:18:13 PM »
To be honest, most of my projects ended on some tech-demo level, and didn't become real games. I'm not a particularly skilled game designer, and I'll depend very much on help from other people with such.

Don't hide your light under a bushel: I still wonder how I managed to make my exams although I spent about 28 hours a day playing simutrans. That was 2003/4 and I liked it much more than Transport Tycoon.

jim

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2010, 03:29:55 AM »
I'll chime in a bit late.

To me, that sounds like a very interesting proposal, and a very problematic one. If we look at video games as dopamine injection systems, you're going to need something to take the easy and overused place of violence.

I can think of two roguelikes that do something like that already, to varying extents. Legerdemain's combat system is cumbersome and punishing, but it's not the focus of the game. Mostly what you're trying to do is solve the mystery of your existence and unravel the riddles around you. This involves a lot of dialog options with manually-entered keywords, brutally twisted and turning labyrinths with hidden doors and secret passages, and an incredibly rich story. So in this case, the author has replaced the thrill of killing with the thrill of page-turning. It's very nice to find a hidden waterfall or discover a part of your character's past.

DF2, in another sense entirely, also does without combat. True, combat is mostly the focus what with the kids these days, but DF would be a complete game without any combat whatsoever. There, it's not so much the thrill of discovery or a richly woven plot that fills the gap, but a physical system that is so engaging that you've got enough to care about without having to care about killing the goblins.

However one would go about it, I think it's safe to say that the player needs something to care about, not just something to do. Basic spelunking/desert/space survival could be quite an enrapturing challenge. Or, were you a race of underground sprites who were trying to explore the mysterious world around them, them having enough charm, history, and/or personality could do the trick in aligning the player with them.

Etinarg

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 12:48:34 PM »
Story based exploration can be very interesting. my only problem with that is that I never found out how to make randomized stories, thatz differ each time the game is played. And fixed story lines have the drawback that the game will become boring after a few replays, even if it is a branching story line.

A good background story can help immersion of the player quite a lot. Many people like to get into roles while playing and offering an attractive roile like the mentioned underground sprites will help for sure.

Dopamin is not needed for everyone to like an activity. Some people enjoy activities that are rather calm and might appear boring to others, like solving crossword puzzles.

I've got stuck with my plans though, and picked up another of my queued projects, to continue that one. In a while I should be back to this with fresh ideas.

Vanguard

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Re: A peaceful dungeon exploration game
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2010, 08:00:12 PM »
So are you going to make it so there are no enemies at all, or would you consider adding enemies that the player character is unable or unwilling to fight back against?