Author Topic: The Temple is crumbling down...  (Read 33607 times)

jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2019, 12:12:31 AM »
I'm not lumping together all these different games into a single genre, but rather recognizing that the elements they share are sufficient to provide interesting conversation material for people who play them.

I don't believe allowing discussion of variations to the classic formula will "kill the genre", in fact, this discussion is healthy so people never forget there is a Classic / Traditional style of roguelikes, their importance in history and that there are games keeping up more closely with their style that are being actively worked nowadays, expanding the genre in different directions.

As for the "roguelike mislabeling" issue, the most negative effect I've seen is on discoverability on platforms like Steam, it might be hard to find a traditional roguelike there, but there are alternate ways to do that, like using IRLDB, or querying for traditional roguelike in other platforms. Recently, devs have become aware of this, and have started tagging their games with the infamous rogue-lite tag.

The trouble is that anything on steam labelled as roguelite is also mislabelled as "rOgUeLiKe". the trouble is that people are blurring the lines between the tags. The trouble is that many games get tagged as roguelikes when they're simply not and people are more accepting of this definition than the actual one. When voicing why Hero Siege isnt a roguelike I've actually had assholes say "oh the permadeath aspect was never important"

THAT is whats killing the genre. If we are not careful the roguelite tag will cease and then its cesspit of mismatched games will get wrongfully lumped into the roguelike tag. Hell we've already RECENTLY had some numbnut try advertise immortal redneck here, specifically use the term roguelike in its definition when its just bloody well not. How is that not damning proof that the genre is being slaughtered like a goddamn sacrificial grid bug corpse?!

Slash

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 03:46:09 AM »
That's why I feel we should keep an open discussion about it, to be able to point people that, for instance, permadeath was and still is an important aspect of roguelikes. If we are open to talk about other games, we have a chance to inform their players about the history of the roguelikes and how their game ended up being labeled as a roguelike even if it lacked critical aspects of the traditional ones.

jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 08:10:59 PM »
That's why I feel we should keep an open discussion about it, to be able to point people that, for instance, permadeath was and still is an important aspect of roguelikes. If we are open to talk about other games, we have a chance to inform their players about the history of the roguelikes and how their game ended up being labeled as a roguelike even if it lacked critical aspects of the traditional ones.

The issue is no one gives a damn about the history. No one gives a damn about what roguelikes are meant to be. No one gives a rats ass about the fact that what is actually like the defining games in the genre is nothing alike the modern tag and the modern definition thereof is choking out the rogue-like nature of roguelikes. It is sad to say, but when the cesspit of the internet that is reddit is one of the few places that upholds the definition of a genre, that genre is well and truly dead.

getter77

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2019, 11:47:15 PM »
A bit of tempest in a teapot as even jrpgs have weathered a similar drift/mutation/We Somehow Forgot---not too far removed from Roguelikes, the original aim was to adapt western tabletop P&P doings either directly as per Final Fantasy or indirectly as per The Black Onyx.  Even most enthusiasts, international or otherwise, since the 90's would be likely to not find that out until long after the fact, if at all.

That which is dead and doomsayed is oftentimes quite alive after a fashion----depends on how the immortal spirit is inherited or leveraged.
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jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2019, 12:59:21 AM »
A bit of tempest in a teapot as even jrpgs have weathered a similar drift/mutation/We Somehow Forgot---not too far removed from Roguelikes, the original aim was to adapt western tabletop P&P doings either directly as per Final Fantasy or indirectly as per The Black Onyx.  Even most enthusiasts, international or otherwise, since the 90's would be likely to not find that out until long after the fact, if at all.

That which is dead and doomsayed is oftentimes quite alive after a fashion----depends on how the immortal spirit is inherited or leveraged.

Alive but in what capacity? In what form? In what iteration? The modern roguelike tag is such a butchery of the genre its no more a fair and accurate assessment than to call Assassins Creed an "RPG" series. If we see the roguelike tag mangled like this too much further then I think I'm just done with modern gaming in its entirety tbh.

getter77

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2019, 12:03:53 PM »
You can venerate a corpse or a spirit---while the former has an absolute value to the ecosystem at a foundational level, the latter is where the potential dwells from that inherited will.

It is just a damned Steam tag, something they only even started bothering with in recent times as one of many things slapped onto their buckling platform to grant an illusion of agency and discoverability to compensate for their refusal to set actual people to work alongside foolhardy attempts at algorithmic cleverness.   Marketing copy is also just that,  AC positioning is just as as something like "immersive adventure" or whatever wasn't as snappy or resonant.

Modern gaming isn't even real, there's only ever been Now with the slim benefit of the immediate past as the industry proper ran away from systemic problems staring it down since the 80's.   Try not to let such machinations have an undue hold over your peace of mind and enjoyment of things---be an enthusiast, not merely some consumer fit for a whipped mob's froth.

You get infinitely more mileage boosting the good and nigh forgotten/out of the limelight, than hopping on an outrage bandwagon that only has fine grains of a point buried deep within---less stress over the already successful Hero Siege and the sequel to come that veers harder on the Diablo evolution, more active emphasis/playing/testing/feedback etc on...hell I don't know...one of the many stupidly ambitious and well wrought projects like Axu that punches in the same weight class as Caves of Qud?
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jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2019, 12:39:15 PM »
You can venerate a corpse or a spirit---while the former has an absolute value to the ecosystem at a foundational level, the latter is where the potential dwells from that inherited will.

It is just a damned Steam tag, something they only even started bothering with in recent times as one of many things slapped onto their buckling platform to grant an illusion of agency and discoverability to compensate for their refusal to set actual people to work alongside foolhardy attempts at algorithmic cleverness.   Marketing copy is also just that,  AC positioning is just as as something like "immersive adventure" or whatever wasn't as snappy or resonant.

Modern gaming isn't even real, there's only ever been Now with the slim benefit of the immediate past as the industry proper ran away from systemic problems staring it down since the 80's.   Try not to let such machinations have an undue hold over your peace of mind and enjoyment of things---be an enthusiast, not merely some consumer fit for a whipped mob's froth.

You get infinitely more mileage boosting the good and nigh forgotten/out of the limelight, than hopping on an outrage bandwagon that only has fine grains of a point buried deep within---less stress over the already successful Hero Siege and the sequel to come that veers harder on the Diablo evolution, more active emphasis/playing/testing/feedback etc on...hell I don't know...one of the many stupidly ambitious and well wrought projects like Axu that punches in the same weight class as Caves of Qud?

The issue is that actual roguelikes are being choked out by a myriad of games that just arent in the genre. The genre is a dying husk of itself because of that. Commercialization is killing roguelikes, propping up roguelites as if they're roguelikes and propping up games entirely outside the genre as if they belong. If/when roguelikes as they're meant to be and had been for the first 20 years of the terms inception die out I'm just done. In that situation just send my ass back to the time before broadband as far as gaming goes mate.

Plain and simple: Capitalism is killing roguelikes. Its enough to drive a man to communism!  :P 8)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 08:03:02 AM by jofadda »

akeley

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2019, 10:55:02 AM »
Anyone that doesn't share these ideas is welcome to stay and discuss in a civilized manner. Harassing people who don't share your ideas will not be tolerated, messages will be deleted, and repeating offenders will have their account frozen.

This is pretty much what it boils down to, and one of the main reasons I started this thread. Without some semblance of civility enforced by strict moderation (in this respect) this forum is a write-off. Sure, it can carry on as a shambling corpse with few ~edgy~ dudes circlejerking and echo-chambering, but I don't think anybody else is seriously interested in that.

Just to make it extra clear it is NOT about disagreeing about roguelites. It is about being a c**t when disagreeing about roguelites. Or, of course any other gripe: why C++ sucks why Nethack is overrated etc etc, but the -lite thing is of ocurse top of the ranking. Extra points for not making any sort of -phobic comments this forum had a fair share of.

Step two, as Slash and others pointed out, could be trying to understand that fighting some Holy Anti Lite war is a lost cause and not a way forward. The way forward is coexistence and education. But without step one nobody will ever come down here to, ahem, "receive our teachings".

For the record, I'm actually also much-concerned about future of classic RLs, though that does not stop me from enjoying plenty of roguelites, some of which are awesome and pretty much have the roguelike spirit locked down - they're just in different genres. I've also recently come to conclusion that roguelites aren't a real threat - this would modern trend of streamlining existing classic RL templates.

But this is something we could discuss in the Temple proper - if only the previous conditions were met. Believe me, I'm not exactly a wallflower,  can give as good as I get and I'm not worried about some local tough guy flexin'. It's just I don't have time nor interest in doing so anymore. Is there anything more tedious and pointless than a "discussion" where in every other post you have to fend off hostilities?

getter77

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2019, 11:46:31 AM »
Quote
Commercialization is killing roguelikes,

Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's, even if regional in exodus not unlike Metal and Wizardry, such that it is now 2019.   Death pronouncements along these lines have been a factor year after year after year now---yet, curiously, Things Continue with this not being appreciated on a cognizant level not unlike apocalyptic movements missing a midnight deadline yet rallying that it'll totally happen next weekend.  "Pre-Millenium" Roguelikes dying out any time soon just doesn't have a leg to stand on when they keep cropping up(even just the last few weeks have granted the world The Red Prison and Zorbus!) and the classics either still actively live (like IVAN!) or are preserved in graceful repose.

You want a real risk?  Death of developers and/or their ruination otherwise---as per Dwarf Fortress.   People are ALWAYS at a more paramount risk than broad constructs hewn broadly around their great works, doubly with a small population compared to other sectors.

Games aren't weeds, even weird GaaS stuff serves some purpose so long as the gambling/addiction interlopers are kept in check---games are an ecosystem with biodiversity being key to a rich environ full of intrigue.
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jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2019, 12:16:12 PM »
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Commercialization is killing roguelikes,

Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's, even if regional in exodus not unlike Metal and Wizardry, such that it is now 2019.   Death pronouncements along these lines have been a factor year after year after year now---yet, curiously, Things Continue with this not being appreciated on a cognizant level not unlike apocalyptic movements missing a midnight deadline yet rallying that it'll totally happen next weekend.  "Pre-Millenium" Roguelikes dying out any time soon just doesn't have a leg to stand on when they keep cropping up(even just the last few weeks have granted the world The Red Prison and Zorbus!) and the classics either still actively live (like IVAN!) or are preserved in graceful repose.

You want a real risk?  Death of developers and/or their ruination otherwise---as per Dwarf Fortress.   People are ALWAYS at a more paramount risk than broad constructs hewn broadly around their great works, doubly with a small population compared to other sectors.

Games aren't weeds, even weird GaaS stuff serves some purpose so long as the gambling/addiction interlopers are kept in check---games are an ecosystem with biodiversity being key to a rich environ full of intrigue.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if I hadnt come across people irl who claimed that "roguelikes need fast paced action gameplay" and that nethack wasnt a roguelike a couple of days ago. The snotbags even had the nerve to state that nethack was never a roguelike. Dudes werent even young peeps. Sonsabitches were 20-30-ish. My age!

Point blank rampant commercialization of games that share nothing or near-nothing with the genre such as slay the spire, risk of rain, immortal redneck and other titles of that ilk as roguelikes are drowning out the actual genre

Krice

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2019, 12:29:47 PM »
Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's

Maybe japanese ones, but not in here. Not really. Rogue (graphical version) and Ragnarok were the only commercial roguelikes anyway, and I wouldn't call them a success in a way much more succesful games were. The reason some developers make commercial versions today is that there are way more players than back then, so everything that attracts some kind of interest will sell ok, I guess? Ok enough to put your game in roguelike genre even it's not a roguelike. That's the problem, sir.

jofadda

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2019, 12:47:17 PM »
Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's

Maybe japanese ones, but not in here. Not really. Rogue (graphical version) and Ragnarok were the only commercial roguelikes anyway, and I wouldn't call them a success in a way much more succesful games were. The reason some developers make commercial versions today is that there are way more players than back then, so everything that attracts some kind of interest will sell ok, I guess? Ok enough to put your game in roguelike genre even it's not a roguelike. That's the problem, sir.

Agreed. I'd even go as far to say that Rogue was a commercial flop and that Rogues main success was the spawning of its genre. The trouble is that for the largest time that genre was freeware, it was for lack of the proper term "donationware" and it was run by a community of freeware/donationware developers who made things in the spirit and nature of Rogue and its ilk for the sake of making things that were like that.

The commercial market however just. Does. Not. Give. A. Single. Flamingo. Pink. Fuck.

The commercial market poisons the well with titles like Risk of Rain, Domina, Hero Siege, Isaac, Spelunky etc and calls those "roguelikes" when they just arent. The commercial market cares more for the cash its titles bring in than how those titles are labelled, and if a title is mislabeled they mangle the label rather than regroup the product.

Troubler

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2019, 04:43:45 AM »
The trouble is that anything on steam labelled as roguelite is also mislabelled as "rOgUeLiKe". the trouble is that people are blurring the lines between the tags. The trouble is that many games get tagged as roguelikes when they're simply not and people are more accepting of this definition than the actual one. When voicing why Hero Siege isnt a roguelike I've actually had assholes say "oh the permadeath aspect was never important"

THAT is whats killing the genre. If we are not careful the roguelite tag will cease and then its cesspit of mismatched games will get wrongfully lumped into the roguelike tag. Hell we've already RECENTLY had some numbnut try advertise immortal redneck here, specifically use the term roguelike in its definition when its just bloody well not. How is that not damning proof that the genre is being slaughtered like a goddamn sacrificial grid bug corpse?!
That is why I emphasize the importance of the "dungeon" in defining the genre. A roguelike game revolves largely around the dungeon, if the developers admit it or not.
Tetris has no dungeon, Sim-city has no dungeon, minecraft has no dungeon, dwarf fortress has no dungeon, but "immortal redneck" still does.

It is very hard to blur the definition that way, and it covers the majority of games directly inspired by rogue or the well-known classic roguelikes.
There is no need for quantification of various concepts like with the Berlin Interpretation, or having to rely on your gut to tell you if it is or not.
Simply look at the dungeon. If there is no randomly generated dungeon for the player character to traverse to reach a goal, there is no roguelike. It is as simple as that.
Beyond the dungeon is just a big discussion over how closely a game adheres to the "traditional" design choices of rogue, many which likely were not choices at all and come from technical limitations.

Then again. I have no concerns with preserving the genre from decay or anything like that, I know it is totally out of my hands. I also don't know how annoying Steam is.
The only thing I am concerned with is producing a definition that is simple and consistent enough. If we just rely on our gut, then there is no definition of roguelikes.
If we rely on that, and just ask what is "like rogue" then we are no different from the Steam users, as there is no authority to say what is "like rogue" or not, only popular opinion.

The best way to satisfy all groups is to accept sub-genres like "Traditional roguelike" or "Roguelite" and understand the differences.
Even "Rogue Clone" isn't necessarily wrong for Steam, as you can simply search for "Rogue Clone" and find what you are looking for.
Here you don't have to do much searching at all, because more games follow traditional design choices than not.
And that ties in with traditional design and commercialization not meshing well, as you seem to have noticed.

Quote from: akeley
Without some semblance of civility enforced by strict moderation (in this respect) this forum is a write-off. Sure, it can carry on as a shambling corpse with few ~edgy~ dudes circlejerking and echo-chambering, but I don't think anybody else is seriously interested in that.
A lot of people say this kind of thing with the assumption that authority will fall on their side, but I think your post could be seen as pretty abrasive itself, no less so than what Krice normally says.
Not that there is anything wrong with being abrasive. I just want to emphasize that strict moderation and a "civil" community would not necessarily translate into a more pleasant environment.
It usually translates into one group of abrasive people, with whom the moderators are aligned, to passive aggressively enforce another group of abrasive people, with whom the moderators are not aligned.

At the end of the day, witnessing these people trying coax moderators (in civil way) to shut each other up is far more uncomfortable than to just be faced with harsh criticism from a few of those otherwise powerless people.
This place still feels fairly innocent in that regard, and I would advise you to cherish that, because once lines are drawn in the sand people only become more resentful. I would rather things remain this way for as long as possible.

Krice

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2019, 06:12:20 AM »
A lot of people say this kind of thing with the assumption that authority will fall on their side

I find this interesting, because what we think things (like roguelikes) are is different than reality. In most cases. It's a bigger issue in today's world and in a weird way it's showing in this, too. Imagine if people were logical about this. Then we would not even have this discussion, everyone would know what a roguelike is, without "interpretations" from some random people who think they are the authority on the subject. And I think most people know what a roguelike is, but they are dishonest.

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Re: The Temple is crumbling down...
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2019, 06:26:50 AM »
I think the following two reasons are spot on as to why this forum isn't active (not to exlude other good points):
A big reason I put off posting here for a long time is because the place looked empty.
ToTR would be more active if there were more traditional roguelike development going on in the world today

The 'successful' forums I've been apart of in the past have had new posts every two-to-three days minimum. Fresh posts means people have a reason to keep coming back. Forums do at least have the benefit of irrelevant/off-topic sections, which gives newcomers an entry point into the community without feeling like they'll immediately face scrutiny (every long term user looks scary when you first join a forum, not just the Krice-likes). But the off-topic section here is just as quiet as the rest of the forum.

The second problem, as Jim pointed out, is that traditional Roguelikes are a niche, and a forum dedicated mostly to intending or active Roguelike developers means only a small amount of people globally would be interested in coming here in the first place. It doesn't help that there's a lack of support for, and general disfavourment of, classic/ASCII/Ultima-like RPGs and Roguelites. Fail to mention, roguelikes are an old genre (no offence  ;)), and I'd assume most people interested in them nowadays either have fulltime jobs, or other time-consuming commitments (i.e. families) that stop them from being active anywhere online.

The spam posts don't help either. They're like tumbleweed passing by the remnants of a once-bustling town, only noticeable because there's a lack of anything else going on.

I'd also assume that forums as a whole just aren't that popular anymore with all the Twitters, Reddits, Facebooks, YouTubes, Twitchers, Facetubes, Instasnaps, and what not, that push online content into one spot.