The trouble is that Immortal Redneck does not bear any semblance to rogue, nor the other genre defining titles whereas Neoscavenger does. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier to roguelikes we're then excluding some actual roguelikes in favor of allowing games like Immortal Redneck, when Immortal Redneck fits less than the open world roguelikes such as Unreal World, Neoscavenger and Ragnarok that are roguelikes. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier we're then expected to kick out every open world game regardless of whether it actually fits.
Immortal Redneck, Minecraft, Organ Trail, Domina etc do not fit as they dont have the feel of a roguelike, there's little tact and in the case of all 4 any "permadeath" aspect is limpwristed at best while they do not play otherwise like anything else properly assigned within the genre.
I have been questioning the importance of permadeath. One of the games you mentioned earlier, Elona, does not have permadeath for example.
Though the dungeons are still randomized, so it still seems to come off as "roguelike" enough as a result.
I think it illustrates another example of how this is the most fundamental aspect of the genre.
Again, for me there is a grey area between the survival and roguelike genre, because of the dungeons often included in those games. Though no, I don't consider Unreal-world a "true" roguelike due to the lack of them.
There is no dungeon to traverse towards a goal. There is an infinite plain of resources placed about randomly, with a few obstacles, but this is more like a "wilderness" than a "dungeon".
There is scoring based on mastery of skills and exploration iirc, but it is largely vestigial. I don't think most people play for score or compete over who can grind up the skills.
I think I have heard of it's very early states being a roguelike with orcs and other fantasy elements, but at some point it had turned entirely into a realistic survival game.
This is not wrong, and the game is better for the change, but I think there is little gameplay that I would consider "roguelike" left in it as a result.
Again, this is just my opinion, and I admit that survival games put a strain on my definition.
As for Immortal Redneck, you say it has no semblance to Rogue, but I've reached Winter playing Cataclysm DDA and most of the gameplay now is loading/unloading cars and building walls.
I don't really consider most of what goes on in that game something like "Roguelike" gameplay, it is survival on an infinite plain with resources. That is a "wilderness", not a "dungeon", most of the time.
Meanwhile in Immortal Redneck or Spelunky the entire game seems to revolve around progressing through the randomized "dungeon" to a goal.
As far as I am concerned, that fundamentally makes them roguelike, beyond a doubt from me.
And like I said in my last post, at the end of the day it just depends on what emotional weight you put on what "characteristic" of the genre.
No one is really the same in this regard. I do not put much weight at all on turns or tiles, these things do not change the fundamental gameplay.
Think about chess. Competitive players are often playing by a timer, which limits how long they can consider things, but the game itself is the same.
Some roguelikes like Nethack has tiles version. It's still the same game. If you really think about it, ascii is also tiles. It's graphics, just simpler.
That reminds me of something.
Though I said ASCII in Rogue was just cosmetic, I was wrong, it actually wasn't entirely. This is something I've discovered pretty recently when I tried the "Lets beat rogue" thing.
I wanted to open up Rogue to mess with how enemies spawned as an experiment, but it was not just a "at level 3 start putting ants" kind of thing like I expected to find.
You might notice that Rogue's dungeon is 26 levels deep, and the bestiary is 26 monsters large. These are both the size of the alphabet, and spawns are based on this.
Spawns are not written out for each level but based on a global rule that works with an array of 26 elements. It is kind of difficult to put into words.
Spinoffs did not follow this rule as far as I know, and it is easy not to notice, but it is there and makes a big difference in what the developer can do. Like a haiku does for a poet.
In an alternate reality people could have noticed this strange mechanic and taken it to heart, and we would be arguing "Should there only be 26 monsters in a roguelike?"
As for nethack, the tiles can still throw you off for a reason similar to this.
The orb and the scroll of genocide both work through characters, but if you use tiles like I did then this will confuse you.
Though that is very minor compared to the issue with Rogue. I also remember reading from a few oldschool Nethack players they didn't like the "new" colored display.
Colors in the display allow for an exponentially larger bestiary, and tiles allow for an even larger one. But if we follow Rogue's "Alphabet only" rule, what you can add is very restricted.
I also remember reading concerns from the developers of Cataclysm DDA about adding monsters because of the limited amount of character/color options they had for players who do not use tiles.
