Author Topic: Info line idea  (Read 63956 times)

Aleksanderus

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2016, 02:15:25 PM »
Quote
Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.

DF is like Minecraft of roguelikes - trendy and programmed by a rich douchebag.
Who banned me for no reason.

I still like the game though...

Cfyz

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2016, 02:31:03 PM »
Quote from: Skullcoder
Quote from: Krice
We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it.
I wholly agree with this.
Is there even possibility to make a list of things that "was good in roguelikes" to go beyond that? "Deeper plot", "better mechanics" and all other "innovative ideas" is just blah blah. Actually making the game will come to making very specific choices where no one will be able to "take everything that good" because there is no universal "good" (well, except the utterly basic things like no bugs or readable font which are not worth mentioning). Trial and error and some measure of common sense seems to be the only way.

mushroom patch

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2016, 03:44:05 PM »
@Skullcoder: Uh, I can 100% guarantee there's no chance of the forces of darkness developing an interest in discussion going on here. While there surely is plenty of the kind of thing you describe out there, the connections you're drawing here are a reach (e.g. a dude coopting a subreddit, probably just for the lulz, vs. activists dying under suspicious circumstances after encounters with authorities). Sounds like "targeted individuals" kind of talk.

Also worth drawing a strong distinction between what's going on in this forum and what's going on in the broader world of roguelike games. This place probably accounts for less than one tenth of one percent of the broader discussion, the vast majority of which goes on in irc channels, mailing lists, and forums devoted to particular, actual games. Further reason to doubt the supposed prophylactic value of rudeness.

AgingMinotaur

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2016, 07:19:51 PM »
Hyperrogue, Sil, Hoplite, URR, Temple of Torment, Shadow of the Wyrm, Cogmind, IVAN and Gearhead seeing development again
I need to be impressed more than that. We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it.
Yes, well, my point was just that there are a lot of interesting RLs in development, although just a few panning out on a huge scale right now. I think that's just normal, it doesn't seem to me that the scene is less dynamic today than in previous decades.1 In hindsight, there will always stand out a few canonical games, and I'm sure that will be true of our age, as well.

That said, I'd love to see a game like you describe. Ironically, a pseudo-RL might best fit the bill, scrapping traditional features to do something really new with procedural generation. I've long thought that a RL which randomly creates an immersive/open setting/story, would be something we haven't really seen yet.

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URR is a strange case. I think it's going to be more like strategy game rather than a RPG.
URR seems to be on its own right path, wherever it may lead. It may end up as something more or less RL/playable/good/interesting, but in any case, it sure is a fascinating project.

As always,
Minotauros

1 Compared to rgrd archives, the temple even has its own assorted crazypersons (including the original Krice ;)). I remember that guy who left the forum in anger after aborting a discussion about rape in games by saying he had just been pulling our legs :o I wonder whatever became of his game – it seemed to be headed in a truly grandiose direction.
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

Aukustus

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2016, 08:12:09 PM »
I remember that guy who left the forum in anger after aborting a discussion about rape in games by saying he had just been pulling our legs :o I wonder whatever became of his game – it seemed to be headed in a truly grandiose direction.

He's the artist of my The Temple of Torment, his roguelike is on a hiatus currently.

AgingMinotaur

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2016, 08:46:08 PM »
Oh, cool that he's still going strong. I only checked out TToT a little bit some time ago, but really liked what I saw back then.

As always,
Minotauros
This matir, as laborintus, Dedalus hous, hath many halkes and hurnes ... wyndynges and wrynkelynges.

Aukustus

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2016, 07:06:05 AM »
Oh, cool that he's still going strong. I only checked out TToT a little bit some time ago, but really liked what I saw back then.

As always,
Minotauros

TToT is going stronger than ever currently :).

Skullcoder

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2016, 08:40:19 PM »
@Skullcoder: Uh, I can 100% guarantee there's no chance of the forces of darkness developing an interest in discussion going on here.

Yes, "the forces of darkness" are mythical.  However censorious authoritarians are not.

While there surely is plenty of the kind of thing you describe out there, the connections you're drawing here are a reach
Those links are simply points of evidence that support a general claim of political correct authoritarian censorship. A forum topic about a completely unrelated topic is not the place to dump an overwhelming amount of evidence.  The scientific minded individual would further research the claim given that these breadcrumbs exist, and fill out the graph themselves coming to a conclusion of their own afterwards.  The ideologically minded simpleton is trained to ignore such data points and ignorantly reinforce their stance that anyone poking holes in their narrative is a conspiracy theorist (or use some other deflection device).  To those that care, you'd do well to read the Gentleperson's Guide to Forum Spies,  and Traits of the disinformationist.

If you grant that these cited events are not fiction then it adds credence to hypothesis.  You've got your mind made up and are impervious to reason, so I'll not waste any more time debating the nature of reality with you.

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Sounds like "targeted individuals" kind of talk.

You obviously don't investigate claims before forming your opinions:  That's so ignorant it hurts. The terminology "targeted individual" is included in documentation and marketing of The Active Denial System.  Does the use of that term discredit all claims that such systems are in use by COINTELPRO in your mind?  Protip: There are active disinformation campaigns to make claims of such systems being used against activist appear "crazy".

Quote
This place probably accounts for less than one tenth of one percent of the broader discussion, the vast majority of which goes on in irc channels, mailing lists, and forums devoted to particular, actual games. Further reason to doubt the supposed prophylactic value of rudeness.
And also a reason to doubt the supposed value of silencing rude people, since there's no one here that needs a safe space devoid of any words they may choose to take offense from.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 08:45:38 PM by Skullcoder »

mushroom patch

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2016, 09:42:35 PM »
Wow. I don't dispute that infiltration of political groups is a real thing. I don't even dispute that some subset of forces that reactionary politics labels "PC" are involved in such things. What I will tell you is that none of this has anything to do with this forum with 15 users. Obviously.

edit: Also, am I correctly understanding you as believing that so-called "gang stalking" is actually real?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 09:47:22 PM by mushroom patch »

Skullcoder

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #84 on: June 14, 2016, 10:00:40 PM »
What I will tell you is that none of this has anything to do with this forum with 15 users. Obviously.
You brought up the term "targeted individual".  You thought the comparison would paint me as a nutjob, but I thought I should educate you just in case you've been disinformed and aren't just willfully ignorant.  This is a fourm and even small forums are frequently targeted.  As the Gentleperson's Guide to Forum Spies notes, size doesn't matter.  Subversion targets anywhere new information outlets exist with the potential for greater audience.  There are numerous examples even on small Usenet communities about niche software.  I'm not saying this forum is actively being subverted but the possibility exists.  Since the roguelike[-lite] genre is becoming more mainstream and all larger gaming forums are under subversive attack even if just by advertising shills, this forum could easily become a target if it begins to grow beyond "15 users".  Obviously.

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Also, am I correctly understanding you as believing that so-called "gang stalking" is actually real?
I didn't say I did.  Nice assumption though.  No, "gang stalking" isn't real, but coordinated psychological operations by unofficial collaborators are part of the real COINTELPRO and Zersetzung tactics.  Since you seem interested you should have read up about Zersetzung, which I already linked to, but you seem exceedingly resistant to any information not matching your literally ignorant narrative.

The Stasi in Germany called that specific technique "street theater" when they used it and it was called this in the US/UK too until the more recent wave of disinformation re-branded the documented use of "unofficial collaborators and informants" under Zersetzung as "gang stalking" or "cause stalking" to more easily discredit those who complain about it.  In the same way, "targeted individual" is used rather than "political dissident".  The Internet is rife with false claims of such attack sometimes by legit crazy people, but the use of the tactic in question is a documented fact.

I guess next you'll say, "am I correct in understanding that you believe secret police will break into a home just to rearrange the furniture of a political dissident?", and my answer is "yes" because this is also an extensively documented practice in Zersetzung, and a complaint of those targeted by COINTELPRO.  If they'll do that why wouldn't they have a few people in a crowd or neighborhood harass some political target in their effort to make them seem insane?  The Germans deemed dissidents as insane and had them reeducated, or put them in a mental hospital, typically after a Zersetzung campaign to generate evidence of "mental derangement".

Street theater is just one method among many of organized psychological warfare, with over 5,000 documented cases revealed after the Berlin wall came down and the Soviet union collapsed.  It's not far fetched to assume the method is still in use today, considering that the directed energy weapons that "targeted individuals" complain about are also real and have been in steady development and deployment since the 1970's.  There are patents for the devices in the US Patent database.

For someone who apparently knows about this stuff you obviously have ridiculously flawed opinion of it, and I therefore question your ability to form opinions in regard to everything else you advocate for.  You might want to try basing your opinions on evidence, history and experience rather than propaganda and disinformation.

I'm not your personal Google, so that's the last I'll say on the matter.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 10:10:36 PM by Skullcoder »

reaver

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2016, 10:45:04 PM »
This fits like a glove:

https://xkcd.com/386/

It's a bit sad when "hot" topics have nothing to do with the actual subject matter and more about people resorting to intellectual variants of name-calling.


Krice

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #86 on: June 15, 2016, 06:34:12 AM »
I ship mushroom patch and Skullcoder.

mushroom patch

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #87 on: June 16, 2016, 01:40:08 AM »
Wow, ya, you're legit nuts, bro. "All larger gaming forums" are not "under subversive attack," even if you're silly enough to consider PR flacks for game companies "subversive."

It's a bit off the wall that your go-to argument for people who don't buy your claims about online "subversion" is to "educate" them about tactics of the East German secret police, the existence of real life ray guns similar to those described by paranoid schizophrenics, etc. I think you're going to have a hard time selling this bill of goods anywhere but the most paranoid alt-right outlets, but if you want to succeed with a more general audience, you're going to need a different approach. A good place to start would be offering a convincing narrative of the stakes involved in what you're talking about re: game forums, since at first glance they appear to be nil, and some analysis of how it could make sense for some malign actor to invest resources in view of those stakes.

getter77

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #88 on: June 16, 2016, 02:42:50 AM »
...Well, this thread went some out there places seemingly out of nowhere.   ???

Try to keep things pertinent and cordial folks, if a topic runs dry then that's just how it goes.
Brian Emre Jeffears
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Skullcoder

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Re: Info line idea
« Reply #89 on: June 16, 2016, 05:20:28 AM »
Wow, ya, you're legit nuts, bro. "All larger gaming forums" are not "under subversive attack," even if you're silly enough to consider PR flacks for game companies "subversive."
You're just ignorant.  There are paid astroturf campaigns in all of the larger gaming forums.  Moderators of several gaming forums have been called out numerous times for being paid shills.  Hell, even on 4chan's /v/ where you'd least expect anyone to be able to subvert.  As for the other stuff, there are videos of the portable devices being used by lowly detention officers, of course COINTELPRO has more advanced secret tech at their disposal today.  The US counter intelligence program is carried out by secret police (DHS / FBI) and they use the Stasi's Zersetzung tactics.  The UK, France, Spain, esp. Germany all have similar programs in place to silence dissenters.  It should be common knowledge to you, esp. after the Snowden Leaks -- Which also revealed the widespread use of JTRIG techniques to subvert online forums.

You seem overly focused on painting others as "crazy" while remaining willfully ignorant even when presented with ample evidence.  Any roguelike fan is going to be one who digs into the details.  Do you actually play roguelikes?  If so, what is your stance on the use of Info Lines in their UI?  It seems you're here just to advocate for censorship and attempt to discredit anyone who advocates freedom from closed minded safe spaces...

I would like to point out that you're acting like the worse troll ever.  At least Krice isn't insulting people by claiming they have mental health issues.  I guess you should advocate for yourself to be banned now.

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A good place to start would be offering a convincing narrative of the stakes involved in what you're talking about re: game forums, since at first glance they appear to be nil, and some analysis of how it could make sense for some malign actor to invest resources in view of those stakes.
Would you acknowledge there are vested interests who pay online shills to promote movies?  The games industry is bigger than the movie industry.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 05:36:09 AM by Skullcoder »