Info line idea

[Cfyz]

It's like the Russell's teapot. Here is an imaginary game no one can see because reasons, now try to prove it doesn't surpass the ADOM =)

[Lord_Mork]

It's the extreme example of adding new things to a roguelike (so much that it's not a RL anymore).  If only more devs didn't pander to the Fakebook generation with such dumbed down gameplay we might get more innovations in the hardcore RL genre.

I really agree with this. It's true that RL's need some new blood - whether that's going by people or just ideas. But at heart, an RL should play like single-player fantasy chess. The kind of game that emphasizes planning and making hard decisions, dealing with random tactical problems, etc.

Too many modern RL devs or modern "RL" players will come from other genres of game and know nothing about how to beat or at least have fun in, a traditional roguelike. Too many things are disagreeable to them.

So following the solipsistic nature of what you term "Fakebook people", they decide that they are the arbiters of what is GOOD and what is NOT - and set out to reform the RL genre.

Thus our new devs and our new players, our " new blood" and "ideas" are actually aiming to steer the RL away from its own tenets and into those of other genres, rather than strengthen its "traditional" gameplay - all because audiences want to play in their own element.

And you have many examples of this, too. Spelunky, which adds platforming, so platform players have more fun in an RL. Binding of Isaac, so shooters can have more fun in an RL. Necrodancer, so Rhythm-game players can have more fun in an RL. But none of these "Roguelites" are designed for RL-players to have more fun in an RL.

And each one simultaneously obfuscates the genre-defining challenges presented in a traditional RL by forcing a test on your reflexes, timing, or coordination.

[akeley]

Ragging on "fakebook generation" is nice and easy, but to me it seems rather misguided - after all who`s to say that if we were born in certain age we wouldn`t be a part of it? And it is certainly pointless: those imaginary culprits won`t care a jot.

I too would love to click on a news item about a new roguelike game on some mainstream site and see it describing a traditional RL instead of a 100 000th Isaac clone. However, my belief is that trying to fight this new wave is our version of tilting at windmills. Instead we should promote the core elements that made the Majors great and explain to newcomers why it is so. And also support and celebrate those who still keep working on the, ahem, "hardcore" RLs.

As it is though, it`s just another day here and another person told to fuck off. For the record,  I never maintained that Krice is the sole reason why this forum is tumbleweed-strewn: there are a few factors contributing and some are just a function of the current situation: niche genre, old school attitude, sometime harsh critique - not necessarily bad things.

But whoever thinks that bunker mentality and arrogant front will help the cause, they`re kidding themselves. The kids will just move on, streaming around this place like US did with those small Japanese island-fortresses in WW2. And some of the "true" RL devs won`t bother coming here either, because of the bad rep.

Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.

[AgingMinotaur]

How nice that this thread can continue to live on and shine its light

I just wanted to mention that when I wrote:

ppl quitting the forums after arguing with […]

I wasn't making a general observation to blame Krice for scarce traffic here, but rather had in mind one or two isolated instances of people explicitly claiming this as their reason before leaving. And I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, and sure someone who quits over a flame might grow a thicker skin, but why flame in the first hand, and all that.

To more recent comments: Roguelikes have always been a niche genre. The main difference today seems to be that a we see a lot of games called "Roguelikes" that are mostly borrowing traits from traditional/actual RLs. Yet I don't think that is hurting the genre per se. There are still developers working on "proper" RLs, and new players coming in, slowly as ever. Nothing new in complaints about the younger generations; and yet, each period produces a lot of intelligent and disciplined people who bring refined ideas and works. The fact that RLs continue to exist – this silly thing resembling at first glance just a lot of letters moving across the screen – and continue as a subculture, is making possible those impossibly huge and wacky projects, some of which come to fruition, even. From Dwarf Fortress to Cult to URR to Kaduria … God knows if Kaduria ever will see a release. I know for certain that I would be one of many who'd be very curious to try it if that day comes …

If I could think of a possible pitfall in working on such a long-term project, it would be that you risk becoming outdated before your actual release. I came to think of Danish Per Højholt's novel Auricula, which he wrote over several decades (whilst publishing other books on the side). When it finally arrived in the 00's, it became an instant classic, being a genuinely great book, but it felt as if it was published 20 years too late. I'm not aiming this comment on anyone in particular, btw But looking back at Squirm, my own game discontinued 5 years ago, I think it had some good systems and content, but there is a lot of design decisions I'd have done differently today, because of how the genre has evolved. We'll see how my current cowboy-RL pans out, but I'm glad to have low stakes in it, just working slowly and seeing what comes. After several years of passive development, it's still a very unkempt beast, that can be taken in almost any direction.

Excuse the rant, as always,
Minotauros

[Krice]

I never maintained that Krice is the sole reason why this forum is tumbleweed-strewn

Roguelikes are like bodybuilding in competition level - it will never become mainstream.

Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.

DF is like Minecraft of roguelikes - trendy and programmed by a rich douchebag.

[Skullcoder]

But whoever thinks that bunker mentality and arrogant front will help the cause, they`re kidding themselves.

Funny thing, but I still visit the same local BBS I used as a kid.  It was full of old geezers which are mostly dead now, but the bunker mentality has kept the BBS alive while iteration after iteration of ICQ, Yahoo Chat, Friendster, Myspace, etc. have blossomed and wilted, like so many tool-tip triggered Info Lines.  Not that I think this place should be a bunker, but just that RLs have always been niche and never appealed to the unwashed masses.  Social people played all their video games at arcades, the masses had an Intellivision or other console, etc. while RL players dabbled on "limited" terminals at university or at home on P.C.s that were more expensive than consoles.  The "Muh Graphics" folks were around bashing Info Lines even in the 8bit era, see also: the perpetually undead Demoscene.   I think your rose colored glasses might need some more tint.  RLs are doing better than ever.  Whether this is due to the "bunker mentality" or despite it is moot (in both UK and US meanings of the word).

The kids will just move on, streaming around this place like US did with those small Japanese island-fortresses in WW2. And some of the "true" RL devs won`t bother coming here either, because of the bad rep.

Most kids are childish impulsive spoiled brats, esp. when it comes to the games they say they "love" but only DL the demo, play it once and then never open the app again.  RLs are expressly designed NOT for that type of mentality.  No one is surprised that toddlers hate Backgammon.  And yet that ancient game is still around, just as good as ever, with more players now than ever before, and despite its terrible Metacritic score.  To say nothing of chess...

One hacker social engineering tool is called the "social filter".  A social filter is a porous barrier to entry that when exposed to the flow of persons naturally screens out all but a desired set of individuals.  A social filter typically works passively, usually to select for people most susceptible to the sort of influence the engineer wants to wield.  Layers of filters can be applied gently so that only those with a very specific mindset are targeted.  There are naturally occurring social filters too. The nature of roguelikes gameplay is a sort of social filter.  It's folly to compare the level of attention that classic RL gameplay attracts to that of games with dumbed down gameplay designed to have as little filter as possible and thus ensnare the greatest number of general public (who mostly abhor the cerebral exercise oldschool-ish RL's demand).  You can't expect to pack an entire screen worth of data into a single Info Line, nor should you expect all gamers to enjoy roguelikes.

Point being: The foolish foxes will always pass by and shun our delicious grapes.  Such is the RL social filter.  Just exposing more people to RLs is all it takes to cast our net.  What we should be aiming to catch is more devs who will work on classic / hardcore / traditional RL gameplay.  Unfortunately when motivated by money any perceived barriers to entry come crashing down and the result is a stunted RL, Roguelike-lite, or even more distant descendant that exhibits only minimal commonalties with classic RL gameplay that use heretical icons in place of a traditional Info Line.

Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.

To be fair there's no 'Temple of the Roguelike' game to attract players and their eyeballs and fingers.  There hasn't been a kickstarter scale advertising adventure with roguetemple in the title.  Those games forums were able to apply their filter more broadly because they could use game content as bait.  You have to come hunting for the entrance to Roguetemple, with an open mind to new Info Line ideas, and hungry to expend your hunger clock further on discussion alone.

If official DF and Cataclysm discussion subforums were here instead then this forum would be buzzing too.  Players buzz around the game they like.  I think there could be ways to improve readership and participation here but the implementation would require so many Info Lines that they'd be more of an Info Block and thus beyond the scope of this thread.

That said, I see Krice and others here as part of a social filter.  We may actually be better off with more Krices.  Linus Torvalds is notorious for his scathing criticism of idiocy.  This is a social filter against those who would be offended, as are the zany Linux kernel names.  Time and again we have seen the permanently offended gain a foothold and then destroy a community around a software project, and the project itself too.  Mozilla is in the death throes of such an internal battle of the crybullies, and it sadly shows in their browser since key talent is jumping ship.  Many people have Ragequit the Linux kernel development community over taking a flaming from Linus, and that's a good thing. They were thin skinned spoiled brats who threw a tantrum for not getting their way; The filters are working as intended.

Even if you think Krice only a negative influence, a roguelike fan should be acquainted with taking the bad with the good.  Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin.  A forum without a troll to keep our guards raised is ripe for subversion by malevolent social engineers who secretly seek destruction or despotic control but peddle their thought policing in the guise of promoting a "nice safe space that's welcoming to all" (except those "rude" boys they banned for wrongthink).

First they came for the trolls, but I did not comment because I was not trolling.
Then they came for the rude boys, but I did not comment because I was not rude or a boy.
Then they came for the Info Liners, but I did not comment because I prefer stat bars.
When they came for me there was no one left to comment.

[Hashiba]

When I first started dropping in around here, a couple of Krice's posts caught me off guard, and I couldn't help but wonder why he wasn't banned...Since then, I've been in far more close-minded and toxic places in the real world and on the internet, and I've very much decided the world is far better place without behaviour police at all.  Getting your feelings hurt, especially by some random stranger on the internet, is a rather huge character liability IMHO, and one that we should stop encouraging people to have.

Krice, I like the info line, but does it really have to be up there?  Why not give it a little border and keep it with the other text?  I find it a bit tedious to snap back and forth across the screen.

[Lord_Mork]

Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin.  A forum without a troll to keep our guards raised is ripe for subversion by malevolent social engineers who secretly seek destruction or despotic control but peddle their thought policing in the guise of promoting a "nice safe space that's welcoming to all"

The one thing that I think I'll comment on is the 'social engineer' bit - I have an anecdote. About a week ago on a separate discussion website called "Voat" I found a very relevant thread. To summarize: The users on that site were apparently up in arms over one particular user (named "HenryCorp") who had slipped in and silently worked his way up the social ladder, becoming the moderator of ten or so sub-boards.

When the members in this thread dug up more info on him, they found some of the following:
- He had come from a similar website called Reddit, where he had done the exact same thing, accumulating over one hundred moderating positions on separate boards.
- He had taken over the top mod position on the board "guns-are-cool", which was formerly for gun-discussion. Once there he immediately began to ban the most pro-2nd Amendment and pro-Gun rights members, while simultaneously inviting in people from boards that he knew were pro-Gun Control. By the end of his scheme, the goal and entire user-base of "guns-are-cool" had been swapped 180' from its original form - now designed to host gun-control discussion.

So regardless of whether Krice is 'right' or 'wrong' or which views are good, bad, or too sensitive, it's true that subversion is a real threat to forums on the net.

The relative obscurity of Rogue Temple versus Reddit or Voat can be either a boon or a curse as well. On the one hand, you don't get too many new users - and thus are less likely to be exposed to some manipulative HenryCorp-esque psychopath. You're also less likely to be targeted by these sorts of people. Whatever political or social opinions they want to spread, they will always have a smaller audience on a smaller or slower forum, and they know this.

On the other hand, someone who has gotten past those natural barriers, who has motivation and knowledge, can more quickly gain sway with a small regular userbase - and eventually rise to moderation.

If you look at small size or obscurity - if indeed Rogue Temple can be called "small" - as a boon, then the necessity of having a resident "protector troll" goes down. (And I wouldn't label any active users here as "troll" - I find that the incessant usage of the term as a playing card in arguments and a thought-terminating end to conversation has diluted any of its real meaning. More often than not, real trolls get banned right away, or leave on their own.)

What's truly scary is the commercialization of this sort of subversion - and its happening already. Most of these HenryCorp types are just very strange, opinionated people on their own personal crusades. But the fact is: they're effective, and they, as real, responsive people, have a greater influence on internet-users than 20-second ads or pop-up coupons. They can worm into a community and gain your trust like a movie trailer never will. And once they've done that, the rest is history. Thankfully, any forum with even moderate to low traffic will be safe from this crap because of the kind of expense in time and money that it takes for a person to do this.

(and you should all buy Dawn™ Wash & Toss Laundry pads  )

The internet has been around for too many years and has touched too many people for anyone to feel confident and safe on it. I may be paranoid after the HenryCorp incident on that other website, but it's true. Most casual web usage is socially-oriented. People will only get better and better at social maneuvering, at manipulation - and they will only become more desensitized and detached from this sort of behavior - as they aren't doing it "in real life".

I see the trends in cynicism and jadedness on the web as being a natural reaction to what people sense as an increase in the force of manipulation online. But with time, things will swing back the other way, and then the vultures will get to work on the picking of our brains.

Everything is set up: technology breeds distraction and scatters your thoughts when used as a casual interface - bombarding you with colors and noise and stimulation. It promotes false anonymity, which in turn promotes lying, gossip, and scandal, which in turn serves as even greater distraction. Advertisements take the facetious state-of-mind bred by the web, and insert their own 'silly' thoughts: ("why not throw out a couple dollars for this product - just for fun"). Human interactive, possibly even AI advertising is the next step and I'm sure that it's in and around us all in places nobody expects.

Sorry for all the unrelated junk, but I wanted to add my anecdote and then couldn't stop.

[mushroom patch]

The reason forums about particular games, e.g. Dwarf Fortress, are more active and vital than this place is very simple: Those forums are actually talking about something. Most discussion here is about games that don't exist, development that doesn't actually happen, programming questions that mark the asker as someone who will never write an actual computer program in their life (I mean "do you use loops?" is, if not real, at least plausible as a thread starter here). The discussion of actually existing games is scattered, dealing often with games that no one plays or whose players are all somewhere else discussing it.

This place has maybe 15 active users and no rules. If you think Krice is what's keeping it from being co-opted, I think you've missed your guess.

[Krice]

Those forums are actually talking about something. Most discussion here is about games that don't exist, development that doesn't actually happen

Only in your twisted mind it doesn't happen. Fuck it happens. Fuck you. The only problem here and every forum ever are people who attack other users. They are the people not talking about something, but someone. That's why when someone starts to say this and that user is bad influence in this prestigious forum you know the game is over. They act like they had the power to decide who can speak and they are often wondering why moderators don't ban these "toxic" users. I'm often wondering why they are like that. Is it just the great feeling of being an asshole? And not only that, often those people aren't even doing anything related to that forum. You aren't programming roguelikes, right? Not even games? It must be that, because otherwise you wouldn't say those things.

[akeley]

  Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin. 

Okay, I rest my case in the face of such next-level rationalization. RLs are doing better than ever and that`s thanks to the unwashed masses being kept away by the true guardians, who are ever vigilant against the agents of roguelite subversion.

Well, humans` incredible ability to chisel reality using the most bizarre devices so as to fit it to their own narrative always fascinated me, however I did not join here to study some delusional constructs. Going back to my earlier analogy, these Japanese  soldiers they found after 40 years on remote islands also thought there`s a war still going on - but there wasn`t. I`ll leave you to yours though, the trenches are way too deep and y`all seem quite comfortable in them, so why spoil the feeling with my "safe space" meddling?

[Krice]

RLs are doing better than ever and

I think the situation may be even worse than what happened to adventure games. Well.. I guess not because some roguelikes are still under development. ADOM... but I hate how it became a commercial game. The only positive thing I remember from recent years is Nethack 3.6.0. They finally (after 10 years of waiting) replaced dead devteam members with new ones and who knows, maybe the next version is actually nice? Although it's difficult to bring anything new to Nethack without destroying the original game. Maybe they should just continue from Nethack II? Kind of freeze 3.6.0 and leave it to history as it is.

[AgingMinotaur]

Caves of Qud seem to be doing their whole revival in a much better way than ADOM, and one could mention other projects as well that belong to an interesting, contemporary wave of RLs … Hyperrogue, Sil, Hoplite, URR, Temple of Torment, Shadow of the Wyrm, Cogmind, IVAN and Gearhead seeing development again … The list goes on, and some of the fringe/action R-lites seem interesting in their own right. I'd say the genre is doing pretty well, although feel free to dismiss everything except Nethack and your own game

As always,
Minotauros

[Krice]

Hyperrogue, Sil, Hoplite, URR, Temple of Torment, Shadow of the Wyrm, Cogmind, IVAN and Gearhead seeing development again

I need to be impressed more than that. We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it. URR is a strange case. I think it's going to be more like strategy game rather than a RPG.

[Skullcoder]

  Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin. 

Okay, I rest my case in the face of such next-level rationalization.

That's one hell of a non sequitur.  I think you missed "may".  No reason to make leaps of logic if hypotheticals aren't your thing.

However, if nothing else the existence of rude folks with harsh language is a time tested canary for free speech online.  RLs are doing better than ever even though Krice is here.  The burden of proof is on you to prove harsh people are a detriment to the forum.  I assert the null hypothesis to claims in the contrary: People who rage quit mightn't be the kind of folk you want to be around.  Gods forbid they dev a roguelike and have to handle an even larger dose of harsher criticism from the world at large...  There are plenty of popular forums where being crass is common so I'm not convinced a little foul language is the reason this site has low traffic.

Going back to my earlier analogy, these Japanese  soldiers they found after 40 years on remote islands also thought there`s a war still going on - but there wasn`t.

If anyone is ignoring the reality of the situation it's you, and that could be a hazard to your health.  There's mention of examples of Voat and reddit forums being subverted in this very thread.  Recent experience has proven that games are certainly not off limits in the culture war.

E.S.R., Linus Torvalds and many other prominent people in Free (Libre) Open Source Software and STEM have been the target of Stasi style Zersetzung attacks for not towing the Politically Correct line.  Take the case of the late Ian Mudock (Ian of Debian, founder of one of the most popular Linux distributions).  This has familiar elements reminiscent of other attacks against activists, such as this Fresno man who was critical of police corruption. This guy spreading non-politically correct messages predicted his death and was found stabbed to death in his burned down home.  It's not just forums that get subverted, but everything from FLOSS projects to education and even police forces.  Let's compare the claims like rational beings: Got any evidence that the subversive war isn't still on?  You'd have to ignore that the subversion warned of by that ex-KGB agent all those years ago are seen playing out in today's culture at large.  You'd have to ignore the recent ideological schism in the indie game community which boiled over even into the mainstream press, even spawning a Law and Order SVU episode.

I've been a target of some shady shit myself in the recent past.  It's nice that you can proclaim "the war is over" since you don't have bullets whizzing past your head, or false accusations sent to your place of business for an article you wrote in the gaming press...  Personally, I'll stay vigilant and keep spreading awareness in hopes others don't fall victim.  Modern day subversion is a real threat.  I merely warn of the methods that are employed.  Thankfully this place isn't fully on the front lines of the culture war, but it could quickly become such.  You need only examine the ideological slant of some prominent community members to see the possibility.  Personally, I hope roguetemple remains neutral territory.

I warn against advocating the silencing of others, no matter how much offense you choose to take at mere words.  People like me are a counter balance to the claim that rudeness is scaring people away.  If rude people and caustic language weren't allowed here I wouldn't have signed up.  If the canary is dead, I don't go into the mine.

We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it.

I wholly agree with this.