Rogue - let's beat it

[Squeeealer]

Congratulations!  At last we have a total winner!

When you came down the stairs next to the Troll, had you identified the wand of slow monster, or were you just zapping desperately?

I noticed once you got to the 20+ levels, you used a wand on almost everything dangerous.  Maybe I conserve charges and items too much.  I'd probably have tackled that Dragon on the way up.  And I'd probably be dead.

I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level.

I agree with you there.  Especially now that we know it can be done.

Thank you, elwin! And thank you so much for your site. I've had a blast playing and it is FAR more enjoyable and playable on your site than on Roku. Also thank you for all the advice and resources you've provided me throughout this topic.

Absolutely. In fact, I've started using my best stuff earlier and earlier in runs. You couldn't really tell it this run, but my intention now is to use what I need to for survival and presume that in the near future I will get something else that will be at least as valuable. I feel like I have to have this mindset because if it is going to be a successful run you have to have luck. Yes, I knew it was a wand of slow monster because I had just tested it on an Aquator who started moving one space at a time instead of two. When I have waterproofing I test out my wands on Aquators.

[Squeeealer]

One of my favorite things to do after a successful run of the Ancient Cave in Lufia II is to consider what stuff I randomly DIDN'T find because it makes the victory seem even more impressive.

Here's what I recall, or think I recall. My brain was fried by the end:

- I don't think I found a ring the entire run
- I found a few daggers (?) early, but found no projectiles afterward except maybe a spear or two
- I did not find a scroll of hold monster and only had one scroll of monster confusion early
- I believe I only found one scroll of magic mapping
- I believe I found either zero or one of both healing and extra healing. This really worried me.

Other luck stuff - good and bad

- Slaughtered like seven Leprechauns, but they were particularly stingy. One dropped me three gold.
- My staff/wand luck was amazing. Two slow monster, two polymorph, and light. That's my perfect combo.
- At one point I had two unidentified scrolls and read them in the wrong order. I read the scroll of scare monster, and then a scroll of identify scroll. DOH!
- Late in the run I was having a little trouble finding the stairs and quaffed a potion of detect monsters. I saw there was a horrible treasure room and was so lucky the stairs were not in there. They were instead right next to a sleeping Jabberwock in a corner I almost did not investigate.
- Never had to worry about rations.
- My scale mail was +3 when I found it and then found four enchantments taking me to that +10. Not to mention the waterproofing!
- Skill or luck? I only once got sandwiched and it was early against two easy enemies. Not getting surrounded is so important.
- Again, the vermilion potion - I had a potion of raise level and never used it. So glad that didn't cost me.

Hey, just realized something. I saved my scroll of food detection for Floor 26 and I don't think it detected the Amulet. It did detect the food that was like two spaces away. Hmm.

What should I play next? Are any of the other Rogues on your site good?  They look a lot more complicated.

LazyCat - where do I play Brogue?

[LazyCat]

I think something wrong must have happened to you.

Ah yes, I was drinking it too far in advance, and it expires very quickly in maybe 10 turns or so.

[LazyCat]

I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level

I agree with you there.  Especially now that we know it can be done.

Let's say the whole dungeon is generated at the beginning and the game knows in advance all the items that will be in there. So now we have dungeon A where you get 2hand-sword on the first floor, and dungeon B where there is not one at all.

Dungeon A is easier than B, but does that make your victory in dungeon A cheap?

Now, make the dungeon B compensates with few extra enchant scrolls. Yes, you could say that kind of mechanics would overall make the game easier, but I think that's a wrong way to look at it, and it would really make it just more balanced.

[LazyCat]

What should I play next? Are any of the other Rogues on your site good?  They look a lot more complicated.

LazyCat - where do I play Brogue?

You should play Brogue, definitively. In my opinion it is by far the best, by far! Others don't even compare if you ask me, and it is the most similar to original Rogue. It's really kind of a sequel, Rogue 2. It's streamlined and well balanced, everything has a purpose and usually multiple ways in which to be used. Simple elements that combine in versatile ways, so often times what seems to be inescapable situation can actually be overcome by inventive and out of the box kind of thinking. For example, traps and other hazards that most times should be avoided can under circumstances be used to you advantage. People who play it for years still are coming up with new trick and things to do they have not thought of before. Read the forum to find out more, but perhaps it's better you don't and go discover things on your own.

https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/

Here is my mod that adds music and sound effects:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/brogueaudio/


If you want to change the settings I'd highly recommend AliensRL.
http://alien.chaosforge.org/downloads

These are only two I play and I've tried many. It's not just how good they are, but also how much all the others suck. Heh! Of course that's just my opinion and I hope it does not offend anyone.  But since you like Rogue, I think it's possible we have somewhat similar taste and that you will like these two as well.

[elwin]

Hey, just realized something. I saved my scroll of food detection for Floor 26 and I don't think it detected the Amulet. It did detect the food that was like two spaces away. Hmm.

That is because the Amulet is not edible.  You need a potion of magic detection to detect it.

What should I play next? Are any of the other Rogues on your site good?  They look a lot more complicated.

V3 and V4 are earlier versions, probably slightly easier.  Super-Rogue makes the dungeon deeper, adding more monsters and items, but with few big changes.  The others are a lot more complicated.

Let's say the whole dungeon is generated at the beginning and the game knows in advance all the items that will be in there. So now we have dungeon A where you get 2hand-sword on the first floor, and dungeon B where there is not one at all.

Dungeon A is easier than B, but does that make your victory in dungeon A cheap?

Now, make the dungeon B compensates with few extra enchant scrolls. Yes, you could say that kind of mechanics would overall make the game easier, but I think that's a wrong way to look at it, and it would really make it just more balanced.

You could say the game overall is more balanced, but the game in dungeon B has become easier and the game in dungeon A has not gotten harder.  So while it may be more balanced, it is also balanced somewhere easier.


WARNING!  I found another bug.  If you save the game while levitating or hallucinating, the effect will not wear off after you restore the game.  I plan to get this bug fixed in a few days.

[Squeeealer]

The only reason I said that about food detection was because I read somewhere that you could detect the Amulet with it. Thank god that food was right next to it or I would have been totally confused!

[Squeeealer]

I used a wand of cancellation on a Venus Flytrap today. Not only did it let go of me, but its attacks did not gradually increase in damage (from what I could tell). Still better saved for Medusae, but when you're in a jam like I was, makes perfect sense.

[Lord_Mork]

So after I wrote that response...

Well I'm a few days late...

But that's awesome!

Now that you've beat Rogue, what will be the fate of this thread? Will you tackle a separate game like nethack or a rogue derivative like Hexrogue? Or something else?

[Squeeealer]

So after I wrote that response...

Well I'm a few days late...

But that's awesome!

Now that you've beat Rogue, what will be the fate of this thread? Will you tackle a separate game like nethack or a rogue derivative like Hexrogue? Or something else?

Thanks! Good question - not sure about this thread. At some points I felt like I was the only one posting heh. That also made me go back to page one. Some guy with only two posts is who started this thread. I only picked up on it about five months afterward. It was fun to see my first post asking questions about how the game works.

Yep! Per LazyCat's recommendation, I've already moved on to Brogue. So far it's capturing my attention, but it sounds like it won't take as long to beat as Rogue did. I have always wondered about Nethack, so that's also got to be a consideration.

[Squeeealer]

Had an odd run today that almost made the leaderboard.

I found something like five or six rings, but could only identify one of them. Fortunately, that one was a ring of regeneration. I bet one of them was a ring of stealth, and had I had that at the end I might have had a shot again.  I just didn't have the patience to test them all out, and it was really late (Troll territory) before I had a curselifter in my inventory that allowed me to see if any of them were cursed - none of them were.

I had a two handed sword (may have even found a total of three), but ZERO enchants. Also never found a scroll of monster confusion, a scroll of magic mapping, or a scroll of monster hold. I did have two scrolls of scare monster, and used those to advance in the later levels.

My armor situation was so frustrating. I found about 3 or 4 armor class 6s, but every time I encountered an Aquator it was in a hallway or in the dark and he got first move. I must have corroded about 8 different armors. Throughout the run my defense was atrocious and I took heaps of damage. I had my ring of regen to recover, but I had to burn my precious few charges of slow monster and polymorph due to a combo of low defense and relatively low attack power. Never did find waterproofing.

In the end I was dropped on Floor 24 (or 25?) right next to a dragon. I had nothing on hand I could beat him with. I tried to run but just ended up getting fried three consecutive times. Wish I could have saved one of those scrolls of scare monster - that would have been fun. And that was the point where had I had a ring of stealth it would have saved my life. I've found that on those late levels equipping the ring of stealth right before descending the stairs is a really good idea.

***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.

[elwin]

Now that you've beat Rogue, what will be the fate of this thread? Will you tackle a separate game like nethack or a rogue derivative like Hexrogue? Or something else?

The thread will go on, most of us still haven't beat it.

***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.

On most good runs, you have strength at least 18 by the time you're down deep.  And there were no enchantments on the sword.  That makes a big difference.

The bug I mentioned with hallucination and levitation is fixed now.

[Squeeealer]

Question about the spear - is it supposed to be a more powerful projectile weapon than the others? Because I notice no difference and carrying one seems to take up precious inventory space. I just assumed since you only get one spear that was strongest.

[LazyCat]

***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.

+A, +B weapon

First enchant parameter (A) increases chance to hit, second (B) increases damage. With no enchants your weapons would have their default chance to hit %, which is apparently quite poor against deeper level monsters. Factors that influence chance to hit are: weapon chance to hit, your strength, and monster's armor.

Question about the spear - is it supposed to be a more powerful projectile weapon than the others?

Spear is 2d3 (2-6) melee and 1d6 (1-6) thrown. Shuriken is the best throwing weapon 2d4 (2-8). Arrows with bow are 2d3 (2-6). Darts 1d3 (1-3). Daggers 1d4 (1-4). That's just damage, not sure about chance to hit %, possibly the same.

Code: [Select]

    { "2x4", "1x3", /* Mace */
    { "3x4", "1x2", /* Long sword */
    { "1x1", "1x1", /* Bow */
    { "1x1", "2x3", /* Arrow */
    { "1x6", "1x4", /* Dagger */
    { "4x4", "1x2", /* 2h sword */
    { "1x1", "1x3", /* Dart */
    { "1x2", "2x4", /* Shuriken */
    { "2x3", "1x6", /* Spear */

First column is melee, second is thrown. By the way, in Rogue+ when a weapon is selected it shows this damage info, like this: "A +1, +1 mace [2-9]". If it is not identified it shows its base damage, like this: "A mace [2-8?]".

[LazyCat]

The bug I mentioned with hallucination and levitation is fixed now.

Is this available for download? Where do you keep most recent version? It seems download from rlgallery is different than the one on bitbucket.