Author Topic: Rogue - let's beat it  (Read 56503 times)

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #135 on: July 08, 2016, 11:50:43 PM »
But my problem is that she confuses me before I even see her most of the time.

One of the victors who wrote a Usenet post would wait in the doorway whenever entering a new room, letting the monsters come to him until he could be sure nothing awake was left there.  I've never had the patience to try this consistently.

I actually just started working the other day on elwin's Rogue 5.4.5 to look and play like Mac version, except for inventory which will work more like Atari ST version. I believe these changes will make the game at least 100x more playable and attractive for new people to try out. -- I have no idea how to make it work through ssh, Elwin let me know if you have time to help make that possible.


That sounds intriguing.  I don't have much time to help, but if you put your code online, send me a link.  Can you explain more about what you're trying to do?  It sounds like your main goal is adding a graphics layer.

Graphics don't work too well over SSH.  The easiest course these days would probably be to write a graphical program that communicates with the server over the Web.  I've always intended to make it possible for people to write their own clients or interfaces for the Gallery.
Roguelike Gallery: play Rogue online.  SSH or in browser.

LazyCat

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #136 on: July 09, 2016, 09:27:16 AM »

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #137 on: July 14, 2016, 07:41:15 PM »
DANG - made it to 25 again.  This was a really weird run.  Perhaps my best with the least.

I quaffed a potion early and when I saw it was a potion of gain strength, I mostly did not quaff any more unless I knew what they were. Eventually I had identified most of the "good" potions, so any other potions I just dropped assuming they were bad.  I got a couple of gain strengths late, but for the most part had 18 STR.

I had a +2 mace and left it on even when I found a long sword.  Eventually I found a two handed sword, and equipped it.  It was cursed DOH! But I eventually found a curselifter and one enhancement, so I probably was working with a base sword the rest of the way.

I found or was dropped a ton of rings, but I only ever found out what one of them was.  Fortunately, it was a ring of regeneration.  In other words, only one scroll of identify ring, wand, etc.  Nymphs stole two of my rings before I could even try to figure out what they were. This was due to an ill-timed scroll of aggravate monster and finding quite a few treasure rooms.

Speaking of treasure rooms, none of them were particularly difficult, and in fact one of them was my second treasure maze ever. It was jam-packed with about 12 treasures.

My fighting style was to try to beat them as soon as I engaged them, but slip on my ring of regen first. Then hit & run. Beat a lot of Trolls like this. This was a burden on an already average food supply, so I never felt comfortable as far as food.

I found a few staves, but two were magic missile (lame) and the other two did not seem to be very helpful when I tested them out on Aquators. Still not exactly sure what they were, but they were definitely not the important ones.

I struggled the entire run with armor.  I never got waterproofing and didn't find leather armor until late.

I only needed to use a potion of restore strength once, and even had to start dropping them.  My scrolls of teleportation saved me each time I used them and my scrolls of magic mapping were extremely useful - even saving me late as it helped me find the stairs while a Black Unicorn was on my ass.

I did identify a scroll of monster hold and a scroll of scare monster kinda late.  The monster hold helped me beat a Black Unicorn.  The scare monster helped me beat a Medusa.  I beat a Jabberwock and a couple more Black Unicorns straight up.

My gold count was low, so I did not make the leaderboard.  I swear I ran into about three Leprechauns thanks again to the ill-timed aggravate monsters and all the treasure rooms.  In general, I found very few of them.  They didn't steal much, but didn't leave much either.

I got to experience level 11 for the first time since May 15.  That run I died on Floor 18 to a Medusa. I was very fortunate this run to only run into the one Medusa and to find stairs somewhat easily after Floor 16.

LazyCat

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #138 on: July 14, 2016, 11:36:30 PM »
I got to experience level 11 for the first time since May 15.  That run I died on Floor 18 to a Medusa. I was very fortunate this run to only run into the one Medusa and to find stairs somewhat easily after Floor 16.

Playing it for more than a year in a row, huh? Every week, every day? I like your passion, and I'd  like to hear from you what is it you like about the game, what do you not like, and what changes do you think would make it even better game.

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #139 on: July 15, 2016, 02:05:26 PM »
I got to experience level 11 for the first time since May 15.  That run I died on Floor 18 to a Medusa. I was very fortunate this run to only run into the one Medusa and to find stairs somewhat easily after Floor 16.

Playing it for more than a year in a row, huh? Every week, every day? I like your passion, and I'd  like to hear from you what is it you like about the game, what do you not like, and what changes do you think would make it even better game.

I got into the roguelike concept about 2001 playing the Ancient Cave sidequest on Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals for SNES.  It's a 99-floor cave with many of the aspects of a true roguelike - no save point, permanent death, randomly created floors and treasure distribution, etc.  I haven't stopped playing since.  I've logged a sickening number of hours in the Ancient Cave - probably years of my life.  :-\

Rogue caught my attention when I saw it was a game app on Roku 3 for just $1. I was already aware of Rogue and immediately bought it thinking I'd learn how to play the next time I got sick and had to stay home from work. A year later I still hadn't gotten sick so I dived right on in. It was very confusing and hard to learn how to play, but in searching for assistance on the web I found this forum and elwin's site.

Like a lot of roguelike players, I am captivated by the concept of random. I love the difficulty level and how whenever someone actually beats Rogue it is likely the biggest accomplishment in their gaming career.  I also have this ideal of maximizing every run I make, even if that run has no chance at victory. I rarely live up to this, but when I feel I have done the best I can do with the hand I was dealt, I find it satisfying despite technically being a loss.

I also like how fast you can play a game, especially in version 5, without taking away from the skill of the game. I regularly use the CTRL+direction to sprint until I run into something. I regularly fight until near death with F+direction, although I do not like that sometimes I actually die when doing this. And I've been getting better about using a number+action to save time and keystrokes. Conversely, the Ancient Cave is a huge undertaking with a successful challenge run taking anywhere from 8-13 hours. And now I cannot stand playing versions of Rogue without these shortcuts.

I hesitate to say what I do not like or what changes I would make because I know so many people have already identified and changed these things in creating their own roguelikes, and I know more intelligent answers would come out of brainstorming with other gamers. I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level. I'd have to think about what those might be.

My biggest disadvantage is just plain not understanding the mechanics of the game. I have never played D&D or anything similar. I have been to the vade-mecum and honestly do not understand how stuff works. As you can probably tell by now, I'm not particularly smart. What would be huge for me is if there was a visible statistic that gave me some indication at how good I am in that moment at hitting opponents. I know it's more complicated than that, but I often have no sense of my ability to hit opponents other than from "feel."

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2016, 05:39:18 PM »
So after I wrote that response...




Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2016, 05:49:50 PM »
Two funny things - I was carrying around that vermillion potion waiting to identify it.  Obviously never used it.  Would have been nice.

Second - zapped a Medusa with that wand of polymorph and she hit me. I assumed that meant I was out.  I used my absolute last item of desperation (a scroll of teleportation) at that point not realizing I really did have two charges left.

That confrontation with that Medusa could have been the end for many reasons. As soon as I saw her I should have defeated her because I could have done so without becoming confused and I was killing her in like 2-3 hits. Instead I walked away, saw she was not moving, then re-engaged her and she immediately confused me. That's when the whole polymorph/teleportation confusion happened.

LazyCat

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2016, 07:22:24 PM »
Like a lot of roguelike players, I am captivated by the concept of random. I love the difficulty level and how whenever someone actually beats Rogue it is likely the biggest accomplishment in their gaming career.  I also have this ideal of maximizing every run I make, even if that run has no chance at victory. I rarely live up to this, but when I feel I have done the best I can do with the hand I was dealt, I find it satisfying despite technically being a loss.

Maximizing every run. That's interesting aspect of replayability. I haven't really thought of it like that before. It's a very good point, and I see now that's why hi-score table is important part of the game.

But, don't you think it's unfair, that something is wrong with the game balance, when you really don't have even a theoretical chance to beat the game without 2hand-sword? I think if there is no good weapons in the dungeon the game should compensate by providing more enchant weapon scrolls. I think that's what "game-balance" ultimately needs to provide, to decrease the impact of random factors and make separate runs have similar chance for victory.
 
By the way, have you ever tried enchanting arrows?


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I also like how fast you can play a game, especially in version 5, without taking away from the skill of the game.

Then you will like Rogue+ with mouse support. I think with it the same game can be played in half the time than regular keyboard version even with its shortcuts. I'll upload new, now mostly complete, version later today.


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I hesitate to say what I do not like or what changes I would make because I know so many people have already identified and changed these things in creating their own roguelikes, and I know more intelligent answers would come out of brainstorming with other gamers.

Having played it that much I think it is you who have the best perspective and can give the most valuable opinion about it. For example, don't you think the blindness effect takes too long? It's a good concept for a difficulty factor, but it's also annoying, and I think its long duration takes away from enjoyment, more than it contributes to the difficulty as a game mechanics.

By the way, have you noticed if the potion of haste actually works?


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My biggest disadvantage is just plain not understanding the mechanics of the game. I have never played D&D or anything similar. I have been to the vade-mecum and honestly do not understand how stuff works.

The game is made opaque like that on purpose. You can see how vague potions/scrolls effects are. You really are not supposed to know how everything works, but rather get a feel for it. Learn bit by bit, and try to do better in every next run. Still, showing exactly how much HP monsters loose when you hit them is a good idea, and I don't think it would take away anything from the game.

LazyCat

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2016, 07:28:33 PM »
So after I wrote that response...

Congratulations! I've done it only once, and that was with save scumming. So now that you've beaten it, do you think you will still continue playing? I guess not as much as before, but if you are looking for more of the same challenge let me recommend Brogue to you.

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2016, 08:56:03 PM »
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Like a lot of roguelike players, I am captivated by the concept of random. I love the difficulty level and how whenever someone actually beats Rogue it is likely the biggest accomplishment in their gaming career.  I also have this ideal of maximizing every run I make, even if that run has no chance at victory. I rarely live up to this, but when I feel I have done the best I can do with the hand I was dealt, I find it satisfying despite technically being a loss.

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Maximizing every run. That's interesting aspect of replayability. I haven't really thought of it like that before. It's a very good point, and I see now that's why hi-score table is important part of the game.

But, don't you think it's unfair, that something is wrong with the game balance, when you really don't have even a theoretical chance to beat the game without 2hand-sword? I think if there is no good weapons in the dungeon the game should compensate by providing more enchant weapon scrolls. I think that's what "game-balance" ultimately needs to provide, to decrease the impact of random factors and make separate runs have similar chance for victory.
 
By the way, have you ever tried enchanting arrows?

Yes, the hi-score table is also important to me because it gives me a sense of community. I had the most fun when both Pertinax and I were playing regularly. Is it really that bad without a two handed sword? I've had at least a couple really good runs with a mace, but it did require a handful of enchantments. So I can see your point there.

But then again the unfair, unforgiving, and absolutely brutal nature of this game is what made it so satisfying to beat. As I realized I had a chance my hands were trembling and I actually felt emotional about finally defeating this game that has brutalized and abused me for over a year. Okay, that's a little melodramatic, but you get the idea.

No, I have never enchanted an arrow. I have accidentally enchanted a bow before, but I don't know that it did anything.

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I also like how fast you can play a game, especially in version 5, without taking away from the skill of the game.

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Then you will like Rogue+ with mouse support. I think with it the same game can be played in half the time than regular keyboard version even with its shortcuts. I'll upload new, now mostly complete, version later today.

I dunno - I can be pretty dang fast on a keyboard  8)


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I hesitate to say what I do not like or what changes I would make because I know so many people have already identified and changed these things in creating their own roguelikes, and I know more intelligent answers would come out of brainstorming with other gamers.

Quote
Having played it that much I think it is you who have the best perspective and can give the most valuable opinion about it. For example, don't you think the blindness effect takes too long? It's a good concept for a difficulty factor, but it's also annoying, and I think its long duration takes away from enjoyment, more than it contributes to the difficulty as a game mechanics.

By the way, have you noticed if the potion of haste actually works?

The more I play the better I get with dealing with and avoiding blindness:

1. I start quaffing potions immediately until a) I find a potion of gain strength; b) I poison myself (thus losing STR and wasting a potion of gain strength should I find one); or, c) I get to about Floor 4. That early in the dungeon you can usually explore at will and have a decent chance of surviving even when blind.

2. From about Floor 4 I just let my inventory build up until Floor 7. Then I go through most of my scrolls seeing if I can identify some potions. If that fails, and I blind myself by randomly quaffing, there's a pretty good chance I have a potion of healing, extra healing, or see invisible to cure my blindness somewhere in my built up inventory. Of course, if I have any of those blindness cures already identified and in inventory then I feel far more free to test my unidentified potions.

3. Sometimes you can almost figure out what unidentified scrolls and potions are just by process of elimination. Or at least know if it's a bad bet.

4. If you start a level in a room with no access points, only one access point, or a maze, then at least you can usually wait out blindness depending on your ration supply. Then again, all that running around means lots of monster spawning.

In this run I just completed I almost screwed it up.  I had already identified quite a few potions and had 4-5 unidentified in inventory. I started quaffing and by the end was both blind and hallucinating. Fortunately, I was able to beat whatever unseen foes approached me. Some of them may have even been Trolls!

Yes, the potion of haste self works wonders. It just doesn't last very long. What I don't understand is when I use a scroll of monster confusion, confuse a monster, but then he is not at all confused and continues to chase me. I've seen this Trolls mostly.

LazyCat

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #145 on: July 15, 2016, 09:50:47 PM »
Yes, the potion of haste self works wonders. It just doesn't last very long. What I don't understand is when I use a scroll of monster confusion, confuse a monster, but then he is not at all confused and continues to chase me. I've seen this Trolls mostly.

How do you know it works? When I am myself hasted I see monsters moving one tile when I move one tile, and when I hit them, they hit me in the same turn. On the other hand, when monsters are hasted with the wand of haste they move two tiles when I move one, and they hit me two times in one turn.

LazyCat

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #146 on: July 15, 2016, 10:10:09 PM »
No, I have never enchanted an arrow.

But it's not an arrow, it's arrows, you enchant them all. I doubt it, but it might actually be worth it under some circumstance. In any case, making enchanted arrows a viable tactical option is kind of improvement I think the game would benefit from. Let me know if you think of something that would expand tactical/strategy aspect of the game, or would otherwise make it more interesting.

elwin

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #147 on: July 15, 2016, 10:42:21 PM »
Congratulations!  At last we have a total winner!

When you came down the stairs next to the Troll, had you identified the wand of slow monster, or were you just zapping desperately?

I noticed once you got to the 20+ levels, you used a wand on almost everything dangerous.  Maybe I conserve charges and items too much.  I'd probably have tackled that Dragon on the way up.  And I'd probably be dead.

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I also hate to make anything easier because then you've just cheapened the victory - yours would not match up to previous victors. So any improvements I can think of would likely be gameplay mechanics-related without altering the difficulty level.

I agree with you there.  Especially now that we know it can be done.
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Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #148 on: July 15, 2016, 10:49:53 PM »
Yes, the potion of haste self works wonders. It just doesn't last very long. What I don't understand is when I use a scroll of monster confusion, confuse a monster, but then he is not at all confused and continues to chase me. I've seen this Trolls mostly.

How do you know it works? When I am myself hasted I see monsters moving one tile when I move one tile, and when I hit them, they hit me in the same turn. On the other hand, when monsters are hasted with the wand of haste they move two tiles when I move one, and they hit me two times in one turn.

I think something wrong must have happened to you. Let's say you are right next to a Troll.  It's your turn, so you quaff a potion of haste self. Here's the best part - you get the first and second move! Hit him, walk one space away. Hit him, walk one space away, etc. Definitely try it again and you'll see.

Squeeealer

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Re: Rogue - let's beat it
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2016, 10:51:05 PM »
No, I have never enchanted an arrow.

But it's not an arrow, it's arrows, you enchant them all. I doubt it, but it might actually be worth it under some circumstance. In any case, making enchanted arrows a viable tactical option is kind of improvement I think the game would benefit from. Let me know if you think of something that would expand tactical/strategy aspect of the game, or would otherwise make it more interesting.

Wow, really?! That would be interesting! The guy that ported Rogue to Roku 3 emailed me a trick for hacking the game, so maybe I could try that sometime. OK - I'll think on it and if I think of anything I'll let you know.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:53:31 PM by Squeeealer »