Author Topic: Class restrictions  (Read 45132 times)

Krice

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2014, 09:42:59 AM »
That's pretty standard.

Sometimes it works and you don't need to invent new things just to escape standards.

guest509

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2014, 03:50:52 PM »
Agreed.

Diablo had this type of use restriction. You needed a certain strength to use the awesome swords, a certain dexterity for other weapons, etc...

I built a Necromancer with armies of skeletons and TONS of dexterity. The skeletons would tank and my Necro would attack with a tricked out bow. It was awesome.

Vanguard

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2014, 04:31:32 PM »
Sometimes it works and you don't need to invent new things just to escape standards.

Sure but it's just as bad to follow the standards without understanding how they work or thinking about how they affect your systems.

awake

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2014, 10:32:16 PM »
I believe DCSS did away with equipment with racial bonuses because the racial bonuses were minor but led players to believe there was no point in using the stuff if you were the wrong race. It was misleading.

The thing with class penalties is you are either giving players the opportunity to make awful decisions or else leading them to believe some options are bad when they're actually okay-ish, and unless they crunch the numbers they may not really know which one. Or so it seems to me.


Vanguard

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2014, 11:39:58 PM »
The thing with class penalties is you are either giving players the opportunity to make awful decisions or else leading them to believe some options are bad when they're actually okay-ish, and unless they crunch the numbers they may not really know which one.

Perhaps the same could be said of all character specialization.

The ideal solution is to pre-crunch your numbers like Sil.  It's stupid of the DCSS team to hide their numbers and then get surprised when people have a hard time gauging what's good and what's bad.

Morcrist

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2014, 03:23:00 AM »
Aukustus, I'm not really fond of stat requirements on items. Immersion breaker, fo' sho'. I mean, even if I'm a 100 pound shrimp I should be able to pick up a 20 pound greatsword and swing it around. Just like I'm 185 pounds, can only bench 150 but I can pick up a 40 pound dumbell and knock the crap out of you with it. Heh. Can I "knock the crap out of you with it" as easily as someone my weight who can bench 400?

Of course not. But imposing artificial limits like only certain classes can use certain weapons/armor, or you can only use certain weapons/armor when your physical abilities reach a certain level? I don't think it has any business in an RPG, where the very nature of the game is supposed to encourage diversity of action(s).

You know what DOES make sense though? Imposing spell restrictions based on intelligence. Mental abilities (or lack thereof) would realistically restrict acquiring certain knowledge, or levels of knowledge. You're just not intelligent enough to comprehend the required methodology. Well, it makes more sense than restrictions based on physical stats at least. :P

I'd recommend going with an open approach. A wizard with 0 points in strength can strap himself into a suit of full plate if he wants, but he's going to move as slow as a snail and/or exhaust himself doing it. Likewise, a warrior with 0 points in intelligence could learn any spell he wants but it's going to take him 10x as long as someone with 10 intelligence and/or way more time/mana to cast. Same with dexterity. Anybody can stick a bolt in a bow/crossbow and pull/wind back the string, but those with high dexterity can reload/shoot faster and/or with more accuracy.

Take care!

Vanguard

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2014, 03:41:56 AM »
Does it really matter?  Do you really care that a game won't let you use a greatsword instead of letting you use one at a -99% damage penalty?  Would it be better if the game printed a message that says you try to wield the weapon, but realize it will do more harm than good, and put it away?

Aukustus

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2014, 07:10:09 AM »
Aukustus, I'm not really fond of stat requirements on items. Immersion breaker, fo' sho'. I mean, even if I'm a 100 pound shrimp I should be able to pick up a 20 pound greatsword and swing it around. Just like I'm 185 pounds, can only bench 150 but I can pick up a 40 pound dumbell and knock the crap out of you with it. Heh. Can I "knock the crap out of you with it" as easily as someone my weight who can bench 400?

Of course not. But imposing artificial limits like only certain classes can use certain weapons/armor, or you can only use certain weapons/armor when your physical abilities reach a certain level? I don't think it has any business in an RPG, where the very nature of the game is supposed to encourage diversity of action(s).

You know what DOES make sense though? Imposing spell restrictions based on intelligence. Mental abilities (or lack thereof) would realistically restrict acquiring certain knowledge, or levels of knowledge. You're just not intelligent enough to comprehend the required methodology. Well, it makes more sense than restrictions based on physical stats at least. :P

I'd recommend going with an open approach. A wizard with 0 points in strength can strap himself into a suit of full plate if he wants, but he's going to move as slow as a snail and/or exhaust himself doing it. Likewise, a warrior with 0 points in intelligence could learn any spell he wants but it's going to take him 10x as long as someone with 10 intelligence and/or way more time/mana to cast. Same with dexterity. Anybody can stick a bolt in a bow/crossbow and pull/wind back the string, but those with high dexterity can reload/shoot faster and/or with more accuracy.

Take care!

I think that stat requirement could be thinked also being ability to use it effectively instead of just being able to wield, wear or cast it. Like Vanguard said about realizing it would be best to not wear it.

I also think it doesn't make any difference having 10x longer casting time or not being able to cast at all. Players would still raise intelligence if they wanted to cast the spell.

Aukustus

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2014, 07:45:57 AM »
Here's an idea: if your strength is higher than an armor set's requirements by a certain amount, you negate the accuracy and casting penalties.

But I think that no matter how strong you are, full plate armor still limits your movement somehow. Your concentration is still not that good and your arms do not move as needed to fire a bow.

Vanguard

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2014, 05:10:10 PM »
If that's a problem for you, don't let people get past the penalties in full plate armor.  If the stat requirement for unhindered casting were 2x the requirement for wearing the armor, then splint is the heaviest armor in which the player can reach a 100% casting success rate.

Aukustus

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2014, 05:41:04 PM »
If that's a problem for you, don't let people get past the penalties in full plate armor.  If the stat requirement for unhindered casting were 2x the requirement for wearing the armor, then splint is the heaviest armor in which the player can reach a 100% casting success rate.

Yeah I've been thinking that there could be a 5% reduction to the spell casting failure chance for every 3 points in strength (in my game stats give bonus to something for every third point). Basically having 9 strength would negate 15% spell failure which comes from chainmail which requires 3 strength. Having 12 points in str which is only attainable by items with strength bonuses would negate splint mail's casting failure. I have to also make sure that a sorcerer wearing heavy armor will not become too powerful.

What's on my mind is a general Armor Penalty stat. 5% for every armor tier and negated by 5% for every 3 points in strength. This would apply to rolls related to spellcasting, stealth and ranged combat.

Edit: Messed up some parts
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 06:23:15 PM by Aukustus »

Endorya

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2014, 09:02:21 AM »
Aukustus, I'm not really fond of stat requirements on items. Immersion breaker, fo' sho'. I mean, even if I'm a 100 pound shrimp I should be able to pick up a 20 pound greatsword and swing it around. Just like I'm 185 pounds, can only bench 150 but I can pick up a 40 pound dumbell and knock the crap out of you with it. Heh. Can I "knock the crap out of you with it" as easily as someone my weight who can bench 400?

Of course not. But imposing artificial limits like only certain classes can use certain weapons/armor, or you can only use certain weapons/armor when your physical abilities reach a certain level? I don't think it has any business in an RPG, where the very nature of the game is supposed to encourage diversity of action(s).

You know what DOES make sense though? Imposing spell restrictions based on intelligence. Mental abilities (or lack thereof) would realistically restrict acquiring certain knowledge, or levels of knowledge. You're just not intelligent enough to comprehend the required methodology. Well, it makes more sense than restrictions based on physical stats at least. :P

I'd recommend going with an open approach. A wizard with 0 points in strength can strap himself into a suit of full plate if he wants, but he's going to move as slow as a snail and/or exhaust himself doing it. Likewise, a warrior with 0 points in intelligence could learn any spell he wants but it's going to take him 10x as long as someone with 10 intelligence and/or way more time/mana to cast. Same with dexterity. Anybody can stick a bolt in a bow/crossbow and pull/wind back the string, but those with high dexterity can reload/shoot faster and/or with more accuracy.

Take care!

Completely agreed with the exception of the fact that people DON'T get snail-slow by using heavy armor, sure it affects movement speed to some degree but what really stands out is how quickly they get tired by wearing it.

It is time to treat armors as they are and not how games want us to believe they should be. I really don't give a damn if mechanics is the excuse - this is just an ancient concept with strong roots in D&D's absurd yet unrealistic mechanics and it should be replaced with something "new" and far more accurate. This is what avoiding the standards should be all about. I don’t mind at all playing a game with traditional and unrealistic armor management but I would definitely prefer having a game applying realistic armor behavior.

"A complete suit of plate armour made from well-tempered steel would weight around 15-25 kg(33-55 pounds).[2] The wearer remained highly agile and could jump, run and otherwise move freely as the weight of the armor was spread evenly throughout the body." - Wikipedia

I've carried around nearly 20kg of weight in my huge backpack for hours. I'm talking about a weight similar to a complete full plate armor set, concentrated just on my shoulders, not evenly distributed throughout my whole body as it would happen if wearing a medieval full plate armor. Nowadays soldiers actually carry way more weight into battle than those in medieval ages. In some cases a modern soldier can carry more than 50kg of gear. Wearing a heavy armor in medieval ages was NOT that hard as people seem to believe nor how games want us to believe, in fact back on medieval times everything people did require more effort making them physically stronger just for carrying out their daily tasks. This implies that people back then were better prepared to wear heavy armors than we are today.

The armor’s major negative side effect is indeed affecting the rate at which you get exhausted plus having closed helmets penalizing your sight’s field of view quite harshly. Any man having no physical disabilities can wear a chainmail or a even a full plate armor while remaining quite agile, assuming we are talking about well-made, full articulated armors. Yeah, wizards would be able to move their arms freely to cast spells, assuming they actually need to perform silly choreographies to cast anything.

Stop treating rogues and wizards as debilitated beings. Let them use a full plate armor as good as a regular person would. Make endurance / stamina the one requirement to properly handle them. The trick to use heavy armors is mainly habituation which will exercise both your endurance and strength. Sure having strength helps out but if one doesn't have endurance to handle it HE WILL run out of breath quite quickly, so endurance should be looked definitely as more important than strength. The fighter is actually the one class that would suffer most from a wearing a heavy armor as it relies more on physical effort, fortunately he does train endurance and strength to counter this.

Another funny thing about armor in games is having chain mail often being classified as light armor while in reality some could actually be heavier than a full plate armor. Full plate armors had in fact their weight way better distributed throughout the user's whole body than the unbalanced weight present in chain mails making chain mails harder to bear. Of course this is quite related to the chain mail ring's thickness and diameter but for any chain mail offering decent protection alone a considerable ring size and thickness was used; light chain mail was mostly used as a complement to plate armors.

Mechanics wise, exchange the wizards carrying capacity for carrying out his heavy armor. Train its endurance and a little bit of strength instead of intelligence or any other wizard related attributes / skills so he can better handle his armor; penalize the character's evade chance based on carrying capacity (armor + inventory); decrease the characters' sneaking ability for wearing heavy and / or noisy armors; penalize mobility speed related to the armor's total weight. Yeah, these are obvious mechanics, however, everything should take both endurance and strength into account but not in a way that would make a particular armor type feel incompatible with a particular class, unless we are talking about extreme armors and character classes - common sense should still be applied.

For the rest of item types, it is pretty much like as Morcrist stated, let attributes and skills restrain their usage and performance instead having character classes "forbidding" item usage types.

PS: Sometimes I spend a full week just collecting information regarding a certain subject. It happens that the armor's topic has been already one of the subjects that I heavily studied before setting it up in my ongoing project.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 04:49:31 PM by Endorya »
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Endorya

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2014, 03:51:01 PM »
Just for the sake of my previous post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz7naZ08Jd4
"You are never alone. Death is always near watching you."

Vanguard

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2014, 07:18:50 PM »
It is time to treat armors as they are and not how games want us to believe they should be. I really don't give a damn if mechanics is the excuse - this is just an ancient concept with strong roots in D&D's absurd yet unrealistic mechanics and it should be replaced with something "new" and far more accurate.

You're the type of person who complains that the queen is stronger than a knight in chess, aren't you?

Endorya

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Re: Class restrictions
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2014, 07:53:05 PM »
You're the type of person who complains that the queen is stronger than a knight in chess, aren't you?

Honestly, I've never complained about any of chess rules nor its game play mechanics, though I find the concept of turning a peon into a queen unsettling. So I guess your assumption is wrong (who'd have known). But thanks to let me know there is a type of person that complains about that; I actually find such complain retarded quite frankly, because from that perspective the queen should be weaker than any other military piece, peons included.

But what was your point with your question again?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 08:32:55 PM by Endorya »
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