Class restrictions

[Quendus]

Aren't lockpicks normally reusable?

[Aukustus]

Aren't lockpicks normally reusable?

Depends on the game. Not always. Sometimes they are destroyed on use, sometimes when lockpicking fails.

[Rickton]

Aren't lockpicks normally reusable?

I'm assuming you're asking about real life, in which case the answer is yes. Though I suppose they can break.

[Gr3yling]

I see.  But in a system where classes have a main stat it doesn't make sense to give one of them a special benefit the others don't get.  If the rogue is strong in combat and can pick locks while fighters and wizards are strong in combat and can't pick locks, why be anything other than a rogue?  On the other hand, if fighters can break chests and wizards can cast unlock, everyone can get pasts locks and the whole locking mechanic is just a waste of time.

So, are you saying that lock picking and other non-combat application of PC abilities should be removed entirely?  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just don't understand what you are getting at here.

[Vanguard]

So, are you saying that lock picking and other non-combat application of PC abilities should be removed entirely?  I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just don't understand what you are getting at here.

Non-combat abilities are fine.  All I said was that introducing a dexterity-based abilities favors dexterity classes.  You could always assign a different ability to each stat to make up for it.  Even then I'd rather see abilities that change how you play and introduce new possibilities.  Like, if the lockpicking skill meant that rogues can open any locked door in a single turn and automatically lock any door they close, that could go a long way towards making them a tricky class with a lot of escape options that feels different from the others.

I don't think standard RPG lockpicking is a good match for roguelikes.  It can used in some cool ways in static and story-focused games.  The developer can hand-place some really nice items behind a high level lock and give you a goal to work for.  They can put some hidden information in a locked area and maybe you can use that to change something that happens in the story later on.  In a randomized game it doesn't work as well.  Characters with lockpicking don't know if those skill points will ever pay off.  Characters without lockpicking just see a bunch of items they can't have.  It isn't very satisfying either way.

A good way to do lockpicking would be to make the lockpicking skill a big investment that sacrifices lots of potential combat ability and put good treasure behind locks to compensate.  It should be much better than what an equivalent combat-oriented character would obtain.  That way you could make lockpicking a skill for growth-based characters that suffer an early disadvantage for big rewards early on.  You may or may not want to allow that kind of build, but at least it makes the lockpicking skill an interesting choice.

[guest509]

It might be neat if classes were able to take advantage of the special traits of each type of item.

For example, we'll go with the classic 4 here:

Fighter: takes advantage of shields and heavy weapons (2 handers) and heavy armor
Thief: takes advantage of lock picks and daggers and cloaks
Cleric: takes advantage of shields and holy symbols and maces
Magic User: scrolls, staves and wands.

Shields: +1 defense, adv: add strength to defense
Heavy Wpns/2 hands: double damage, adv: use with one hand.
Heavy Armor: +4 armor class but 1/2 speed, adv: no speed reduction
lock pick: open chests no problem, adv: open doors too
daggers: +1 melee attack and throw attack, adv: double damage on unaware enemies
cloaks: +1 stealth, adv: +5 stealth while no moving
holy symbols: +1 defense against demons and undead, adv: repel undead and demons
maces: just a solid melee weapon, adv: stun enemies
scrolls: read and execute spell, adv: scroll does not disappear (or scroll can be memorized a used twice)
staves: A good melee weapon, adv: You shall not pass, lock a door or passage.
wands: A good ranged weapon but with limited charges, adv: unlimited charges, or double charges.

So again there are no restricted items, but the special abilities are pretty significant.

[Vanguard]

That could be cool.

[Morcrist]

Jo, OMG that is an awesome idea!

Everybody can use everything, but only certain classes can REALLY take advantage of certain items. Brilliant! The simplicity of class based systems with the freedom of skill based. Definitely adding this to my list of Things That Make the Perfect CRPG.

And not to go off-topic, but earlier some people were railing against "trash loot". That there had to be some kind of "penalty" if you will for having it. Well isn't it obvious that the main penalty to cashing in trash loot is the time involved? If people REALLY want to spend the time hauling all that crap back to town and taking the time to sell it, shouldn't they be rewarded for it?

I'm completely against, in fact I despise systems where if you're for example a Wizard you don't even SEE sword drops. Or the game actually turns all drops into something usable by your class. Bleh! Talk about dumbing down the gameplay. It's like every drop has to be a lollipop, or a rainbow filled balloon to brighten your day. I don't want every group of monsters in a dungeon to have catered items. That so breaks immersion for me, the Fantasy Hero invading enemy territory to cleanse the evil therein.

But yeah, classes are awesome if you can still use every item. Which is why Jo's suggestion so appeals to me!

Great thread. Interesting discussion!

Take care.

[AgingMinotaur]

And not to go off-topic, but earlier some people were railing against "trash loot". That there had to be some kind of "penalty" if you will for having it. Well isn't it obvious that the main penalty to cashing in trash loot is the time involved?

The argument against is rather that, if you give an advantage to players who grind for trash, you in effect punish those who don't. in good RLs, your character typically lives or dies by narrow margins, so many people will feel compelled to do whatever it takes to get a slight edge. Ideally, it should be as fun as possible to play "perfectly". This doesn't necessarily invalidate your point, though, it all boils down to what kind of game you're making. And there are optional solutions, such as allowing grinding, but also rewarding swift advancement in some way.

As always,
Minotauros

[guest509]

The perfect solution is one that makes grinding or diving to be a tough strategic decision. Maybe grinding takes time, which requires food, but can make you stronger...Save the frog by turn 1000 or lose the game? Lava is rising and you must outdistance it...lots and lots of ways to make it an interesting decision. Grind to get stronger but you lose time.

Also I'm glad you liked the 'use' advantage idea. I hate finding a badass sword and not being able to use it. There are various stat heavy systems you can use, but I like the clear granularity of a class system sometimes.

BTW:
Pirate: sword, pistol, pet (parrot!), maybe trinkets?
Alchemist: Potions and scrolls and goggles.
Barbarian: 2 handers, helmet, lots of str. duel wield.
Ranger: Bows, pets.
Monk: Scrolls, any not edged weapon.
Ninja: Disguises, thrown weapons (daggers, ninja stars)
Samurai: sword, Bow, can duel wield.
Geisha: Disguises, trinkets, daggers

Sword - Good all around weapon. Adv: Adds to defense (parry/fencing).
Helmet - Plus defense. Adv: Resist stun.
Potion - Has magical effect. Adv: Drink twice and/or automatic identification.
Pistol - Ranged weapon, slow reload. Adv: Carry 2 at once, so you can fire every turn.
Bow - Ranged, lower damage than pistol. Adv: Bank shots? Always recover arrows?
Pet - Kinda random like the dog in nethack. Adv: Attacks and fetches on command.
Disguise - Treated as the disguise, except by directly adjacent enemies. Adv: Even adjacent enemies fooled.
Trinkets - Rings and amulets and such. Adv: No limit to how many you can wear.
Thrown - Recoverable ranged weapon. Adv: No need to equip it, can throw it from belt anytime no problem.
Goggles - Resist blindness. Adv: See in the dark (yep!)


You can further refine classes by giving them different starting equipment, different base stats. Like the barbarian will have higher base attack and HP or some such. The Geisha will start with the 'dress' disguise, which fools all intelligent creatures until she attacks!

You can also let a player choose their own advantages, a sort of 'make a class'.

[Aukustus]

I'm necromancing this thread for some ideas since I'm having second thoughts about my D&D like restrictions in my The Temple of Torment. Some feedback would be nice.

My new ideas for stat based restrictions with 10 points max per attribute:

Strength and weapons (swords in examples)
- At str 0 daggers
- At str 3 shortswords
- At str 6 long swords
- At str 9 two-handed swords

Strength and armors
- At str 0 robes
- At str 1 leather
- At str 2 studded
- At str 3 chainmail
- At str 5 splint
- At str 7 plate
- At str 9 full plate

Dexterity and weapons
- At dex 0 slings
- At dex 3 shortbows
- At dex 6 longbows
- At dex 9 crossbows

Spells with armors
- 5% failure rate per armor level: Leather 5%, Studded leather 10%, Chainmail 15%, Splint 20%, Plate 25 and Full plate 30%

Miss chance for ranged weapons increased by 5% per armor level after studded leather

Clerical spells have Wisdom requirement

Mage spells have Intelligence requirement

[Vanguard]

That's pretty standard.

[Vanguard]

Here's an idea: if your strength is higher than an armor set's requirements by a certain amount, you negate the accuracy and casting penalties.  That way strength and armor are useful for non-fighters while still ensuring that fighters benefit the most from heavy armor.

What you've got right now discourages build diversification.  Fighters should raise str, archers should raise dex, and wizards should raise int.  Why bother with stats at all if it's gonna be like that?  Just say you need to be a level 9 fighter to use two handed swords and the results are the same.

[Zireael]

Here's an idea: if your strength is higher than an armor set's requirements by a certain amount, you negate the accuracy and casting penalties.  That way strength and armor are useful for non-fighters while still ensuring that fighters benefit the most from heavy armor.

That's a good idea.
I don't like attribute requirements, so I didn't include them in Veins, but when phrased like that, they go on my TO-THINK and TO-DO list

[Aukustus]

What you've got right now discourages build diversification.  Fighters should raise str, archers should raise dex, and wizards should raise int.

Characters receive enough points to add into multiple stats. Max level is 10 and there's 2 points per level-up plus one stat gain from quest. Characters begin with 3 points in their main stat. Possible stats for maxed level characters are for example 10 points in strength and 10 in dexterity since 10 is maximum points per stat without equipment with bonuses.