Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Development => Programming => Topic started by: miki151 on August 20, 2013, 07:04:15 PM
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I'm standing before a few choices on archery UI and mechanics in my game.
Have the player wield the bow or make a separate equipment slot for it? Nethack uses #1 and I like the tactical element of switching weapons when going from shooting to melee, but I don't like it when I forget to switch: "you begin bashing monsters with your bow". Adom does #2 and it seems like an easy solution, maybe too easy.
Another thing is the UI. You can use the "throw" command on arrows and assume they are fired if you've equiped a bow. You can have a separate "fire" command, which automatically chooses the arrow or have arrows readied in quiver. Finally, you can also "apply" a bow to shoot. To make things complicated, I'm planning the crossbow to require two actions: loading, which takes more time, and shooting, which is instant (it will be more powerful than the bow, to balance it).
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Personally, I avoid archery in most roguelikes because it's less convenient than hand to hand combat or magic, so I'm in favor of anything that alleviates that.
With archery they usually make you switch your weapon and then gather or replace all of your ammo, but if you're a fighter or a wizard you don't have to deal with that. I think you should only require weapon switching if it fulfills an important purpose, and bows should either have infinite ammo like ToME 4 or there should be some kind of auto-gather function where your character recovers all the arrows lying around.
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bows should either have infinite ammo like ToME 4 or there should be some kind of auto-gather function where your character recovers all the arrows lying around.
Arrows could be also treated like bullets and always be spent when shooting, which is a pretty good compromise unless you want to have guns in a game and play up the difference or you're aiming for a 'realistic' game.
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Check out the way Demonhunt does it.
It's a great and tight system all around, cannot recommend it enough.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I think infinite ammo is silly for such a complicated game as a RL. I'd rather have monsters drop more arrows so the player has enough of them. This allows specialized arrows like in Adom, too. Autopicking is a good suggestion.
I checked Demonhunt and it looks like it's the same as in Adom.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I think infinite ammo is silly for such a complicated game as a RL.
If you're going with finite ammo then you should either make it very easy to obtain and allow the player to carry a huge amount or make it a limited resource like wands, potions, etc. and bring archery's power up to par with those other consumable options.
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To make things complicated, I'm planning the crossbow to require two actions: loading, which takes more time, and shooting, which is instant (it will be more powerful than the bow, to balance it).
Making things manual can have mixed results. Maybe it's better to get more realistic feel to it, but it can also become tedious and annoying. I'm using a long range weapon slot in Kaduria and automatic quiver, but it's also possible to put long range weapon in one of hands and use quiver with the type of projectiles you want. So if you want to switch weapons "realistic" way it's possible, or you can just press 'f' to shoot with anything you have in long range slot.
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How do you combine the two options? If there is a long range weapon slot, then why would the player want to manually switch weapons? Does he get some kind of bonus if he does that?
If you're going with finite ammo then you should either make it very easy to obtain and allow the player to carry a huge amount or make it a limited resource like wands, potions, etc. and bring archery's power up to par with those other consumable options.
A perfect game would require certain strategies to keep a healthy stack of ammo, but would never leave the PC without an option to get some. Similar to food. But anyway, I'm not planning to have characters limited to archery, like an Archer class. In no fantasy book that I've read was there a character skilled in archery and nothing else. So the ammo problem is not such a big deal.
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I think DoomRL handles ranged combat the best of any roguelike. Firing takes two keypresses, one to target and one to fire (you don't have to choose ammunition), and reloading takes one. You can target monsters by cycling through them with tab, or using the arrow keys.
The only other thing I want from ranged combat is a way to shoot at the nearest monster with one keypress - Angband has this, but it doesn't handle targetting quite as well.
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Thanks for the suggestions. I think infinite ammo is silly for such a complicated game as a RL.
If you're going with finite ammo then you should either make it very easy to obtain and allow the player to carry a huge amount or make it a limited resource like wands, potions, etc. and bring archery's power up to par with those other consumable options.
For my potential western RL (yeah, it's not dead yet), I'm considering having ammo and money as a single resource. The rationale will either be that this is such a grotesque society that lead slugs is the actual currency, or the transaction will be symbolic (1 bullet costs 1 dollar, and you're assumed to have bought the ammo you need/can afford). I know it all comes down to balancing whether or not that would work, but I'd still be interested to hear any comments to that idea – before I implement it in an utterly stupid way.
As always,
Minotauros
edit: typo
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How do you combine the two options? If there is a long range weapon slot, then why would the player want to manually switch weapons? Does he get some kind of bonus if he does that?
I guess it's just to give shooters better immersion. They can wield bow in hand slot and leave other hand empty if they want to get hard core. Hand slots have priority over long range slot so if there is a bow in hand it's used as long range weapon.
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For my potential western RL (yeah, it's not dead yet), I'm considering having ammo and money as a single resource.
That works quite well for The Legend Of Zelda and its sequels. It's also a lot like using stamina for magic and special moves, or using hunger for everything - and those are accepted conventions.
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Another option is to make switching automatic with some cost (if switching takes a fraction of a turn, like in DCSS for example, it would be way better than bashing opponents over the head with a bow). Of course manual change should be kept in too, probably.
For my potential western RL (yeah, it's not dead yet), I'm considering having ammo and money as a single resource. The rationale will either be that this is such a grotesque society that lead slugs is the actual currency, or the transaction will be symbolic (1 bullet costs 1 dollar, and you're assumed not to have bought the ammo you need/can afford). I know it all comes down to balancing whether or not that would work, but I'd still be interested to hear any comments to that idea – before I implement it in an utterly stupid way.
Sounds good either way. If I were doing it, I'd use the one with people using bullets as money and explore where is that coming from setting-wise (lead and other bullet-worthy metals all roughly as worthwhile as silver? interesting), though you might not want to.
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For my potential western RL (yeah, it's not dead yet), I'm considering having ammo and money as a single resource. The rationale will either be that this is such a grotesque society that lead slugs is the actual currency, or the transaction will be symbolic. I know it all comes down to balancing whether or not that would work, but I'd still be interested to hear any comments to that idea – before I implement it in an utterly stupid way.
Sounds good either way. If I were doing it, I'd use the one with people using bullets as money and explore where is that coming from setting-wise (lead and other bullet-worthy metals all roughly as worthwhile as silver? interesting), though you might not want to.
That's what I was thinking, as well. Extrapolating on that outlandish idea, I envisioned a fantasy world where salt is far from plentiful, except in the wild outland that would be setting of the game (there would be other natural treasures, as well, procedurally generated bovines, and the like). So you'd be mining for salt, hijacking (or protecting) salt transports, etc., and getting paid in lead 8) Also, the idea lends itself to adding shot towers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_tower) as a location type, which is quite cool in itself. The only problem is, I'd have to scrap my random currency generator, which currently outputs beautiful coin names, like "silver tögrögs" and "pseudo-bits". :'(
As always (ranting),
Minotauros
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Extrapolating on that outlandish idea, I envisioned a fantasy world where salt is far from plentiful, except in the wild outland that would be setting of the game (there would be other natural treasures, as well, procedurally generated bovines, and the like). So you'd be mining for salt, hijacking (or protecting) salt transports, etc., and getting paid in lead 8) Also, the idea lends itself to adding shot towers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_tower) as a location type, which is quite cool in itself. The only problem is, I'd have to scrap my random currency generator, which currently outputs beautiful coin names, like "silver tögrögs" and "pseudo-bits". :'(
Lead mines would be naturally awesome dungeons in such a world - filled with violent miners (due to lead poisoning), with an in-built clock to push the player onward (because you don't want to get too much lead poisoning yourself) and fiercely protected, because they're as worthwhile as silver mines were to our ancestors.
Also, re: random currency generator - I'm sure it will find a home. If not in your roguelike, maybe in someone elses?
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I like the lead mines idea.
You can turn it into Plutonium Mine for a scifi based alternative. Crazy radiation mutants and zombies and stuff, gotta get through the level so you can detox. Maybe find some anti-radiation pills. Maybe not.
Or forego detox and mutate. Grow a third ear, lose a foot or learn to shoot lasers out of your thumbs. Random chance. :-)
Did that rat just eat a chunk of iridium? Holy crap it's grown to 10x original size and now spits plasma. +5 to pants crapping.
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For my potential western RL (yeah, it's not dead yet), I'm considering having ammo and money as a single resource. The rationale will either be that this is such a grotesque society that lead slugs is the actual currency, or the transaction will be symbolic (1 bullet costs 1 dollar, and you're assumed to have bought the ammo you need/can afford). I know it all comes down to balancing whether or not that would work, but I'd still be interested to hear any comments to that idea – before I implement it in an utterly stupid way.
That sounds really cool.
You'd need to put a lot of effort into balancing your economy - if you run out of ammo and you have no money to buy more (since your ammo IS your money) then you're really up a creek. On the other hand, if money is plentiful then the potentially interesting decisions about balancing spending, conserving shots, etc. become trivial.
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How do you combine the two options? If there is a long range weapon slot, then why would the player want to manually switch weapons? Does he get some kind of bonus if he does that?
You could have two weapon sets, one for ranged and another one for close combat. You could then add the ability to automatically switch weapon sets, based on the foe's distance. For example, if you target a foe immediately next to you own char, it would automatically use the melee kit instead the ranged one. You could also let the player decide the input the range threshold for weapon change, in case switching weapon sets take at least 1 turn.
A perfect game would require certain strategies to keep a healthy stack of ammo, but would never leave the PC without an option to get some. Similar to food. But anyway, I'm not planning to have characters limited to archery, like an Archer class. In no fantasy book that I've read was there a character skilled in archery and nothing else. So the ammo problem is not such a big deal.
As Vanguard suggested, an auto-recover option would be neat as well as having the ability to interact with trees to craft arrows from them. Crafting arrows would naturally take several turns adding a strategy element to when deciding to get them.
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I think the problem that the OP brought up has more to do with UI than it does with gameplay.
It isn´t a problem for a player to engage in a realistic style switching so long as it is clearly communicated to the player that they should do so. The problem has more to do with the cumbersome process of doing so and the liklihood of forgetting to do so-- especially if you have to do it a lot.
I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.
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I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.
Yeah, quickslots can also be a solution but if we want to avoid forgetting switching weapons, specially during large confrontations with enemies striving from every corner, changing weapons automatically should be considered, despising if we are talking about quickslots or weapon sets. This is something I wished ADOM had when I used to play it as an archer, not to mention having an auto-arrow-recover feature, which was basically the thing that kept me away from that class; picking a dozen of arrows after battles was tedious as hell.
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I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.
Yeah, quickslots can also be a solution but if we want to avoid forgetting switching weapons, specially during large confrontations with enemies striving from every corner, changing weapons automatically should be considered. This is something I wished ADOM had when I used to play it as an archer, no to mention having an auto-arrow-recover feature, which was basically the thing that kept me away from that class, picking a dozen of arrows after battles was tedious as hell.
It´s a UI issue. The player needs to A) know that he needs to switch and B) have a way to switch that is easy.
A) is easy to solve- just make an obvious indicator.
B) is also easy to solve with quickslots.
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If the player has been using a bow, and now is going for melee how do you indicate (effectively) that he needs to switch? Once he's next to a monster it's too late, because he will have to waste a turn (switching needs to take time otherwise it doesn't make sense).
The only way I can think of is by using tiles and having two hero versions with clearly visible bow and sword. But I still don't know if it would work.
By quickslots do you mean slots for primary and secondary weapon that can be switched with a single key?
And I don't know how switching automatically would work in such a way that wouldn't give me a headache.
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I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.
Yeah, quickslots can also be a solution but if we want to avoid forgetting switching weapons, specially during large confrontations with enemies striving from every corner, changing weapons automatically should be considered. This is something I wished ADOM had when I used to play it as an archer, no to mention having an auto-arrow-recover feature, which was basically the thing that kept me away from that class, picking a dozen of arrows after battles was tedious as hell.
It´s a UI issue. The player needs to A) know that he needs to switch and B) have a way to switch that is easy.
A) is easy to solve- just make an obvious indicator.
B) is also easy to solve with quickslots.
C) The player doesn't need to know when to switch nor he doesn't need to use quickslots, because both can be handled automatically. This is what I prefer. You just need to setup you weapon kits previously.
PS: Nonetheless, I totally comprehend your approach.
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And I don't know how switching automatically would work in such a way that wouldn't give me a headache.
As an archer you will need to choose a target. Once you have chosen a target you can return its range to determinate what weapon should the player's character use. If the player is holding a sword and he attempts to hit a target far way he will spend one turn switching to a ranged weapon but if you had already a ranged weapon, well, then he immediately uses / shoots the ranged weapon.
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Well, what about the other scenario? I forget to switch to sword and get close to the monster. Now, whatever the game does, is it a warning or automatic switching, I loose a turn (actually automatic switching is worse here, as the monster will have an extra attack, whereas after a warning I can step away). The only solution I can see is having a *very* visible indication of what weapon I'm holding, so I don't make this mistake. Otherwise switching has to be free, which in practice is a separate slot for melee and ranged weapons.
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Well, what about the other scenario? I forget to switch to sword and get close to the monster. Now, whatever the game does, is it a warning or automatic switching, I loose a turn (actually automatic switching is worse here, as the monster will have an extra attack, whereas after a warning I can step away). The only solution I can see is having a *very* visible indication of what weapon I'm holding, so I don't make this mistake. Otherwise switching has to be free, which in practice is a separate slot for melee and ranged weapons.
You can switch weapon while moving away from the monster. Imagine you need to move 2 turns before the character is ready to attack. This means the foe won't have 1 turn for free as you seem to describe. Further more, you can yet begin automatically switch weapon as the monster gets only 2 tiles away from the player's character, hence me describing the threshold for weapon switch. There are many other things that could be taken into account for automatic weapon switch like the foe's current HP, speed, attack power etc...
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I dislike auto-switching or long-range weapon slots because there is no opportunity cost associated with using different weapon types. Why crutch game mechanics for poor UI? Swapping weapons out is a legitimate cost that a player should pay, even when it may seem to make little difference.
While it may be cool if a player could define automatic actions based upon certain conditions (for example, swapping out a ring of vampirism for a ring of regeneration when there are no enemies in melee) could be interesting, but it should never forgo the loss of a turn to do so (definitely with a confirmation prompt).
The NWN UI handles quickslots very intuitively- check it out.
Otherwise, under the player's name/HP bar, you can indicate their current weapon- colorized or however (Bow could turn red when in melee, for example). Changing the Sprite or throwing up a warning indicator is another.
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Ok, I get it. So the player switches weapons while making a move towards the enemy, thus not wasting a turn. This would be something new to me, doing something while walking (is there any RL that implements this?)
But such an automatic action would give me an extreme headache as a player, because it'll switch for example when I'm firing at a goblin and run into a rat. And the whole point of switching is to give the player tactical choices, if not then why not do it the Adom way.
Otherwise, under the player's name/HP bar, you can indicate their current weapon- colorized or however (Bow could turn red when in melee, for example). Changing the Sprite or throwing up a warning indicator is another.
The status bar indicator won't work in my opinion, I already display the wielded weapon there and once in a while I miss the fact that I'm barehanded. The problem with any color flashing or warning is when to display it, because if you're next to a monster then it's too late.
I already use the @ color to indicate HP, and it works really well. So an idea would be to alter the color according to type of wielded weapon.
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Ok, I get it. So the player switches weapons while making a move towards the enemy, thus not wasting a turn. This would be something new to me, doing something while walking (is there any RL that implements this?)
You can talk endlessly on forums trying to think how it works or you can try it in actual gameplay. Although it doesn't stop developers making odd decisions in both gameplay and UI. I guess the two important things are control (not too automatic) and avoiding tedious tasks which could be automatic.
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Ok, I get it. So the player switches weapons while making a move towards the enemy, thus not wasting a turn. This would be something new to me, doing something while walking (is there any RL that implements this?)
But such an automatic action would give me an extreme headache as a player, because it'll switch for example when I'm firing at a goblin and run into a rat. And the whole point of switching is to give the player tactical choices, if not then why not do it the Adom way.
I'm not here saying that my method is the better choice. I'm just giving you an alternative to handle the possibility of having the player forgetting to change weapons during critical situations. Regardless of the scenario you describe, I'm pretty sure I can come up with a solution for it, I just need to know if you are really interested in having automatism to handle weapon switching to keep a smooth combat without having messages interrupting it.
The problem you describe could be easily handled by keeping your target "locked" avoiding automatical weapon switch by having rats or any other hazard appearing near you. There are many things you could do to increase the flexibility of the automatism to satisfy the needs of everyone, from full automatic to full manual.
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You can talk endlessly on forums trying to think how it works or you can try it in actual gameplay. Although it doesn't stop developers making odd decisions in both gameplay and UI. I guess the two important things are control (not too automatic) and avoiding tedious tasks which could be automatic.
True. One should really ponder upon how heavily controlled a game should or not be. Nonetheless, brainstorming is really important as everyone tend to add value to a certain issue due to each one of us having its own way of seeing and handling problems.
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Endorya, I'm guessing you already have a specific solution in mind. I'm eager to hear it, that's what I started this thread for (sorry if I was too critical, sometimes my thinking is too narrow).
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I guess the two important things are control (not too automatic) and avoiding tedious tasks which could be automatic.
You know, that's a great way to look at it.
Decide which actions introduce more tedium than interesting decisions, automate that part of the process, and there you go.
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Endorya, I'm guessing you already have a specific solution in mind. I'm eager to hear it, that's what I started this thread for (sorry if I was too critical, sometimes my thinking is too narrow).
I always want people to be critic and speak their minds. Really, don't let this hold you back, at least when posting towards me :). I've lost the count of times people have corrected my own thinking, it is all part of the growing process towards matters of which we might not be to familiar with.
My solution is bound to the automatism I've referred previously, but I can only implement it once I get a full understanding on how you ranged combat is processed. As Krice stated, knowing the right amount of control you intend to give to the player is very important. We don't want combat to feel too cumbersome nor too simplistic / automatic ending up removing value.
If you need we can discuss this subject over a live chat.
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What do you mean by how it is processed? Here are my rough goals, if that's what you mean:
- directional firing, as opposed to targeting - I know it's old school, but I like it and I think it results in interesting combat.
- simple and fast UI - I think to fire I'll just use Alt + direction
- automatic missile selection that can be overridden if needed
- preferably having the PC actually wield the ranged weapon, but with such UI that it doesn't result in forgetting to switch too often.
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What do you mean by how it is processed? Here are my rough goals, if that's what you mean:
1 - directional firing, as opposed to targeting - I know it's old school, but I like it and I think it results in interesting combat.
2 - simple and fast UI - I think to fire I'll just use Alt + direction
3 - automatic missile selection that can be overridden if needed
4 - preferably having the PC actually wield the ranged weapon, but with such UI that it doesn't result in forgetting to switch too often.
1 - If you are moving towards directional firing, automatism will be impossible to implement as there will be no reference about what you are trying to shoot down. Directional firing has a severe impact over ranged combat mechanics; make sure it remains balanced.
2 - I think your approach is effective and you could in fact do this while having the two-weapon-sets mechanics I had described previously. ALT + DIRECTION to trigger ranged combat and DIRECTION only for melee combat. I would remove the 1 turn delay to switch weapons to make the combat much smoother, mainly to compensate the directional fire, which itself can feel very "castrating" for ranged attacks. Leave the turn penalties for all the other actions like using or equipping all the items outside the two weapon sets. Keeping ourselves rooted to old concepts will restrain our ability to innovate or improve; you as developer have the power to make it happen. 8)
3 & 4 - Are already incorporated in point 2.
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Keeping ourselves rooted to old concepts will restrain our ability to innovate or improve;
We are on a forum about ASCII games :)
So if I were to move to targeted firing, how would the situation change?
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We are on a forum about ASCII games :)
I can think of a few people who would disagree with that...
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We are on a forum about ASCII games :)
I can't say I agree with that :P
So if I were to move to targeted firing, how would the situation change?
The game would select the right weapon set based on the target's distance. Now how you target foes? The most comfortable way I can think of is through the mouse, but if you want it trough keys, well, you can either use the TAB key to cycle through all targets or the ADOM's method. It really depends on the average quantity of foes the game is set to trigger. I would go with TAB for few enemies and target cross-air for large quantities of foes and I would still maintain switching weapon sets costing 0 turns for the reasons I mentioned previously.
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We are on a forum about ASCII games :)
We are on what?... :D
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Well OK, some are Unicode and one or two has graphics ;D
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Well OK, some are Unicode and one or two has graphics ;D
All important modern roguelikes have graphics. I used to say that ASCII is totally passé, until I saw your game.
Sorry about the offtopic post. Generally offtopic and flame wars are all I do here ;).