Author Topic: How to do archery?  (Read 27491 times)

guest509

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 01:24:47 AM »
I like the lead mines idea.

You can turn it into Plutonium Mine for a scifi based alternative. Crazy radiation mutants and zombies and stuff, gotta get through the level so you can detox. Maybe find some anti-radiation pills. Maybe not.

Or forego detox and mutate. Grow a third ear, lose a foot or learn to shoot lasers out of your thumbs. Random chance.  :-)

Did that rat just eat a chunk of iridium? Holy crap it's grown to 10x original size and now spits plasma. +5 to pants crapping.

Vanguard

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 06:21:29 AM »
For my potential western RL (yeah, it's not dead yet), I'm considering having ammo and money as a single resource. The rationale will either be that this is such a grotesque society that lead slugs is the actual currency, or the transaction will be symbolic (1 bullet costs 1 dollar, and you're assumed to have bought the ammo you need/can afford). I know it all comes down to balancing whether or not that would work, but I'd still be interested to hear any comments to that idea – before I implement it in an utterly stupid way.

That sounds really cool.

You'd need to put a lot of effort into balancing your economy - if you run out of ammo and you have no money to buy more (since your ammo IS your money) then you're really up a creek.  On the other hand, if money is plentiful then the potentially interesting decisions about balancing spending, conserving shots, etc. become trivial.

Endorya

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 01:33:36 PM »
How do you combine the two options? If there is a long range weapon slot, then why would the player want to manually switch weapons? Does he get some kind of bonus if he does that?
You could have two weapon sets, one for ranged and another one for close combat. You could then add the ability to automatically switch weapon sets, based on the foe's distance. For example, if you target a foe immediately next to you own char, it would automatically use the melee kit instead the ranged one. You could also let the player decide the input the range threshold for weapon change, in case switching weapon sets take at least 1 turn.

A perfect game would require certain strategies to keep a healthy stack of ammo, but would never leave the PC without an option to get some. Similar to food. But anyway, I'm not planning to have characters limited to archery, like an Archer class. In no fantasy book that I've read was there a character skilled in archery and nothing else. So the ammo problem is not such a big deal.
As Vanguard suggested, an auto-recover option would be neat as well as having the ability to interact with trees to craft arrows from them. Crafting arrows would naturally take several turns adding a strategy element to when deciding to get them.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 04:08:17 PM by Endorya »
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requerent

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2013, 04:09:26 PM »
I think the problem that the OP brought up has more to do with UI than it does with gameplay.

It isn´t a problem for a player to engage in a realistic style switching so long as it is clearly communicated to the player that they should do so. The problem has more to do with the cumbersome process of doing so and the liklihood of forgetting to do so-- especially if you have to do it a lot.

I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2013, 04:24:26 PM »
I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.
Yeah, quickslots can also be a solution but if we want to avoid forgetting switching weapons, specially during large confrontations with enemies striving from every corner, changing weapons automatically should be considered, despising if we are talking about quickslots or weapon sets. This is something I wished ADOM had when I used to play it as an archer, not to mention having an auto-arrow-recover feature, which was basically the thing that kept me away from that class; picking a dozen of arrows after battles was tedious as hell.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 04:29:01 PM by Endorya »
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requerent

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2013, 04:29:29 PM »
I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.
Yeah, quickslots can also be a solution but if we want to avoid forgetting switching weapons, specially during large confrontations with enemies striving from every corner, changing weapons automatically should be considered. This is something I wished ADOM had when I used to play it as an archer, no to mention having an auto-arrow-recover feature, which was basically the thing that kept me away from that class, picking a dozen of arrows after battles was tedious as hell.

It´s a UI issue. The player needs to A) know that he needs to switch and B) have a way to switch that is easy.

A) is easy to solve- just make an obvious indicator.
B) is also easy to solve with quickslots.

miki151

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2013, 04:47:58 PM »
If the player has been using a bow, and now is going for melee how do you indicate (effectively) that he needs to switch? Once he's next to a monster it's too late, because he will have to waste a turn (switching needs to take time otherwise it doesn't make sense).

The only way I can think of is by using tiles and having two hero versions with clearly visible bow and sword. But I still don't know if it would work.

By quickslots do you mean slots for primary and secondary weapon that can be switched with a single key?

And I don't know how switching automatically would work in such a way that wouldn't give me a headache.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 04:52:22 PM by miki151 »
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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2013, 05:11:29 PM »
I think that this has even less to do with melee/ranged and more to do with having multiple weapons that are desirable to use. Allowing the user to define specific load-outs and mapping them to a quickslots is a better approach. From there you don´t have to create special rules if you don´t want to. Using a quickslot either consumes a turn or it doesn´t-- if it doesn´t, then you can limit the number of slots.
Yeah, quickslots can also be a solution but if we want to avoid forgetting switching weapons, specially during large confrontations with enemies striving from every corner, changing weapons automatically should be considered. This is something I wished ADOM had when I used to play it as an archer, no to mention having an auto-arrow-recover feature, which was basically the thing that kept me away from that class, picking a dozen of arrows after battles was tedious as hell.

It´s a UI issue. The player needs to A) know that he needs to switch and B) have a way to switch that is easy.

A) is easy to solve- just make an obvious indicator.
B) is also easy to solve with quickslots.

C) The player doesn't need to know when to switch nor he doesn't need to use quickslots, because both can be handled automatically. This is what I prefer. You just need to setup you weapon kits previously.

PS: Nonetheless, I totally comprehend your approach.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 06:05:30 PM by Endorya »
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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2013, 05:15:28 PM »
And I don't know how switching automatically would work in such a way that wouldn't give me a headache.
As an archer you will need to choose a target. Once you have chosen a target you can return its range to determinate what weapon should the player's character use. If the player is holding a sword and he attempts to hit a target far way he will spend one turn switching to a ranged weapon but if you had already a ranged weapon, well, then he immediately uses / shoots the ranged weapon.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 06:10:21 PM by Endorya »
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miki151

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 07:53:17 PM »
Well, what about the other scenario? I forget to switch to sword and get close to the monster. Now, whatever the game does, is it a warning or automatic switching, I loose a turn (actually automatic switching is worse here, as the monster will have an extra attack, whereas after a warning I can step away). The only solution I can see is having a *very* visible indication of what weapon I'm holding, so I don't make this mistake. Otherwise switching has to be free, which in practice is a separate slot for melee and ranged weapons.
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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 08:48:36 PM »
Well, what about the other scenario? I forget to switch to sword and get close to the monster. Now, whatever the game does, is it a warning or automatic switching, I loose a turn (actually automatic switching is worse here, as the monster will have an extra attack, whereas after a warning I can step away). The only solution I can see is having a *very* visible indication of what weapon I'm holding, so I don't make this mistake. Otherwise switching has to be free, which in practice is a separate slot for melee and ranged weapons.
You can switch weapon while moving away from the monster. Imagine you need to move 2 turns before the character is ready to attack. This means the foe won't have 1 turn for free as you seem to describe. Further more, you can yet begin automatically switch weapon as the monster gets only 2 tiles away from the player's character, hence me describing the threshold for weapon switch. There are many other things that could be taken into account for automatic weapon switch like the foe's current HP, speed, attack power etc...
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 08:57:02 PM by Endorya »
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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2013, 12:49:19 AM »
I dislike auto-switching or long-range weapon slots because there is no opportunity cost associated with using different weapon types. Why crutch game mechanics for poor UI? Swapping weapons out is a legitimate cost that a player should pay, even when it may seem to make little difference.

While it may be cool if a player could define automatic actions based upon certain conditions (for example, swapping out a ring of vampirism for a ring of regeneration when there are no enemies in melee) could be interesting, but it should never forgo the loss of a turn to do so (definitely with a confirmation prompt).



The NWN UI handles quickslots very intuitively- check it out.

Otherwise, under the player's name/HP bar, you can indicate their current weapon- colorized or however (Bow could turn red when in melee, for example). Changing the Sprite or throwing up a warning indicator is another.

miki151

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2013, 04:31:52 AM »
Ok, I get it. So the player switches weapons while making a move towards the enemy, thus not wasting a turn. This would be something new to me, doing something while walking (is there any RL that implements this?)

But such an automatic action would give me an extreme headache as a player, because it'll switch for example when I'm firing at a goblin and run into a rat. And the whole point of switching is to give the player tactical choices, if not then why not do it the Adom way.

Otherwise, under the player's name/HP bar, you can indicate their current weapon- colorized or however (Bow could turn red when in melee, for example). Changing the Sprite or throwing up a warning indicator is another.
The status bar indicator won't work in my opinion, I already display the wielded weapon there and once in a while I miss the fact that I'm barehanded. The problem with any color flashing or warning is when to display it, because if you're next to a monster then it's too late.

I already use the @ color to indicate HP, and it works really well. So an idea would be to alter the color according to type of wielded weapon.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 04:42:08 AM by miki151 »
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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2013, 09:10:32 AM »
Ok, I get it. So the player switches weapons while making a move towards the enemy, thus not wasting a turn. This would be something new to me, doing something while walking (is there any RL that implements this?)

You can talk endlessly on forums trying to think how it works or you can try it in actual gameplay. Although it doesn't stop developers making odd decisions in both gameplay and UI. I guess the two important things are control (not too automatic) and avoiding tedious tasks which could be automatic.

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Re: How to do archery?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2013, 09:57:26 AM »
Ok, I get it. So the player switches weapons while making a move towards the enemy, thus not wasting a turn. This would be something new to me, doing something while walking (is there any RL that implements this?)

But such an automatic action would give me an extreme headache as a player, because it'll switch for example when I'm firing at a goblin and run into a rat. And the whole point of switching is to give the player tactical choices, if not then why not do it the Adom way.
I'm not here saying that my method is the better choice. I'm just giving you an alternative to handle the possibility of having the player forgetting to change weapons during critical situations. Regardless of the scenario you describe, I'm pretty sure I can come up with a solution for it, I just need to know if you are really interested in having automatism to handle weapon switching to keep a smooth combat without having messages interrupting it.

The problem you describe could be easily handled by keeping your target "locked" avoiding automatical weapon switch by having rats or any other hazard appearing near you.  There are many things you could do to increase the flexibility of the automatism to satisfy the needs of everyone, from full automatic to full manual.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:09:15 AM by Endorya »
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