Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Announcements => Other Announcements => Topic started by: kraflab on September 12, 2012, 11:25:58 PM
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Since I have the luxury of seeing demographics through Desura, I came across some pretty interesting data on the gender of Epilogue players:
90% Male
3% Female
7% Anonymous
That's right, the female percentage is less than half the percentage of people that chose to remain gender-anonymous.
I don't have stats on gaming as a whole, but surely that number is incredibly small!
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Yowza! No comment, I guess.
As always,
Minotauros
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The DCSS survey statistics were kinda similar. Of course we are the niche within the niche, and female gamer penetration is very very poor for less accessible game types. I know Dredmor and Cardinal Quest have been much better at attracting female players.
Of course there are still many very skilled and dedicated female roguelike players across many of the traditional titles. In spite of the typical male hero fantasy theme of most RLs I don't think there's anything in the gameplay that's inherently off-putting to female players. It's more about visibility.
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female gamer penetration
Please Mr. Grey, can we keep this professional. :P
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Would you rather I talk about male gamer penetration? Because even casual penetration is poor for ASCII games. Penetration is much deeper when gamers have something nice to look at, it seems.
:-P
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I think women are much more casual gamers, but they do play games. Women seem to play certain types of games. I remember The Sims was (and still could be) a big hit and many multi-player games like World of Warcraft.
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Double post, crap.
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Would you rather I talk about male gamer penetration? Because even casual penetration is poor for ASCII games. Penetration is much deeper when gamers have something nice to look at, it seems.
:-P
Nice
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Not surprising - as enjoying a roguelike is 99% about dealing with logical-mathematical challenges, which isn't exactly known to be women's cup of tea.
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Tell that to the many female mathematicians in the world... Honestly it's that sort of shit generalisation that keeps a lot of women away from gamer communities.
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Agreed with Darren. I know some female roguelike players, and they are very good at maths too.
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Honestly it's that sort of shit generalisation that keeps a lot of women away from gamer communities.
I don't think anything "keeps" women away from anything. We as men have to understand that women don't always want to spend hundreds of hours to beat some hardcore roguelike games.
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Just one of those historical/cultural oddities among many others----there have been girls gaming since the very start and there continues to be more and more by quite a number as the years go on same as with guys: People on the Whole are more down with it than ever before.
Like other things, Roguelikes are along for the ride and will get lifted up proper as it goes. I would say the main factor isn't necessarily gender based as far as norms and such go....well....outside of stuff like Noxico maybe....but mainly it just comes down to Polish Polish Polish----on all fronts, with much attention paid.
This is why Dredmor has many folks, same as, traditionally at least, jRPGs, and so on----no matter the gamer, polish gets noted and appreciated, and serves to perhaps ultimately have the power to tempt even detractors to test the waters.
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I agree with Darren as well.
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As an undergrad not long ago, my maths courses were close enough to 50/50 that I couldn't tell which gender was better represented. It was the computer science courses that were male-dominated.
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Boobs!
Ahem, sorry. Women can and do play roguelikes, though I think it's pretty non-controversial to say that most women have a far more casual relationship with video games than male gamers, and therefore you're going to see fewer female roguelikers.
Most women I've spoken to don't really "get" games that present obstacles between themselves and enjoyment. Roguelikes are full of those obstacles, the interface probably being at the heart of things. However, all three of the women who I managed to get to sit down and spend the time with Dungeon Crawl needed in order to get to the point where they could see past the sybmols and memorize the keystrokes ended up enjoying the game. Not just that: they "got" it.
For instance, I could see the calm, analytical concern on their faces when they were trapped in a hallway with centaur archers. They understood the gravity of the situation, and they'd check their hit points and teleport scroll supply.
They would bust out with obscenities when an advanced character died, and they would explain to my WHY the character died, and discuss ways in which to prevent future deaths. Such discussions usually ended with an informal ode to the particular character's accomplishments. That is to say, they knew and appreciated the purpose of permadeath.
That which was at first an obstacle - the lack of graphics - also later came to be appreciated; they didn't have to be constrained by the battle animations of commercial games and were allowed to envision whatever they wanted (a lack of thongs and D-cups on the little @ probably helped there.) One said to me that the reason she liked roguelikes were because they were "symbolic puzzle games with playful imagination at their nerdy heart." Really clever, I thought, but then she was an English major and profundity was her job. Each of them also liked that they could get up and make a cup of tea while they thought about what their next moves should be, or just save and walk away at any time: there was never any need to play for 4 hours in a row in order to get anywhere, ala Skyrim.
All were addicts for a time. Two still play it to this day, which means that their relationship with DCSS ran deeper than their relationship with me, thus DCSS is more of a man than I am. But I won out against DCSS on the last one. :)
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Stereotyping can be dangerous as people often think it applies to the individual, and behave that way. Individuals often think you are applying the stereotype to them even if you aren't. What's worse is when the stereotype is incorrect, or even worse when the stereotype becomes a self fulfilling prophecy (see 'girls aren't good at math').
Yet the human brain works by categorizing things, making assumptions. If you didn't start with a template for each new person you meet the world would be impossible to navigate.
I'd say that many assumptions are best eradicated. 'Gurlz don't likes teh maths' is one of those.
-Jo
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Of course there are some women into math and logics, but proportionally there are less women than men into them.
Women are usually more into getting satisfaction from social stuff.
At least that's my perception.
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You're generalising again! There are *lots* of women into maths and logic, and by saying "it's not a woman's cup of tea" you're implying that they are odd and should be treated as odd. You may not mean that of course, but lazy generalisations put across very negative messages.
Men like football and molesting women, for instance. Black people are poor and uneducated. White people are racist. Gamers don't have friends. This sort of shit generalisation, whatever stats/proportions may be behind it, is outright insulting to whatever group you target it at.
And on this subject I don't think the proportion of women into maths/logic is a big deal - as has been pointed out there are many top universities where the female/male ratio on maths courses is equal or more women. Your logic, founded on crap gender stereotypes, is *completely flawed*. The real issue here is one of culture and accessibility. And in spite of these barriers there are many excellent women roguelike players, who may or may not have an interest in logic and maths.
Back to the original post, I wonder what the general male/female ratio on Desura is? Might not be much better than that 3%, since it's relatively speaking an obscure service.
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gender stereotypes
However genders are different, it's some kind of fact that can't be denied either. The real question is "so what?" It's just how genders are. These days people who recognize there actually are different human races can be accused to be a racist while it's not the point. Men and women are not equal and will never be. Women seem to like different things in general than men. Just look at us. Which one of us roguelike developers is a woman? I'm waiting...
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How much is culture and how much is genetics though? And just because of a general trend doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. Johanna Ploog was one of the best Crawl devs.
And this sort of thinking can be dangerous. For a long time women were excluded from politics and other areas because it was considered "not their sort of thing". As a society we have a duty to reject imbalances in social norms.
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Haha, calm down man.
I am not generalizing, just stating my perception of reality.
You seem to take it personally as people like me were the reason why there are no girls into roguelikes (and who cares, I would say).
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No, I just generally think there's too much casual sexism on the internet and it's not very healthy for online communities. It doesn't make a difference to how many people play roguelikes - that's its own problem stemming from how few people play roguelikes *at all* :P
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Haha, calm down man.
I am not generalizing, just stating my perception of reality.
You seem to take it personally as people like me were the reason why there are no girls into roguelikes
AFAIK many people believe that the low number of girls in maths/CS is caused by such perception of reality (girls are told that this is not for them, instead of being shown successful women). Roguelikes are a niche anyway, but you get a chance to learn about roguelikes by doing maths/CS.
(and who cares, I would say)
Well I do care, I want them to play my games.
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I thought I'd end up having to link this report, so here it is. Some actual facts. The research was done in america but most of its conclusions would probably hold elsewhere.
http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/whysofew.cfm
Why So Few? Women in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (AAUW, 2010)
This in-depth report describes eight key research findings that point to environmental and social barriers that continue to block women’s participation and progress in science, technology, engineering, and math.
Maybe I just went to a weird university, but the proportion of women in my maths classes was pretty close to 50%, and the state of the physics department seemed pretty respectable too. Computer science takes about the same skill set, but the proportion there was a lot closer to 10%. Suggests it's something to do with computers and stereotypes about computer scientists rather than something to do with logical/mathematical thinking.
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There are no barriers for women if they want to do something. It's not the reason. Women just don't like same things as men (usually). It's funny that equal rights seem to mean some people that there should be 50/50 distribution of men and women everywhere.
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When a disparity exists due to lack of opportunity, or the subtle social pressures that keep people away from a certain activity, that shit is WACK.
If, in the case of Roguelikes, the ladies don't decide to partake then it's no biggie.
Perhaps someone should make a roguelike with a girl protagonist. That'd be neato.
-Jo
PS: If someone makes a Roguelike about shopping that will be missing the point, but would be hilarious really. Try to make it to the end of the mall. Choose to steal, buy, switch tags on the clothes, etc. Dodge teh security guards. Sounds like a great 7DRL. But I digress.
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I have read somewhere that such roguelike should be called GiRL.
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There are no barriers for women if they want to do something. It's not the reason. Women just don't like same things as men (usually). It's funny that equal rights seem to mean some people that there should be 50/50 distribution of men and women everywhere.
It's about equal opportunity and not making presumptions. Don't equate gender norms with expectations of the individual. And overall men and women are more alike than they are different. Most of the differences come about through cultural set-ups, not biology.
It works both ways of course. There are comparatively few male nurses, air stewards or secretaries. This is nothing to do with men being worse at these jobs, it's just a cultural set-up that says men shouldn't do these jobs.
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Most of the differences come about through cultural set-ups, not biology.
I think it's exactly the other way: biological differences dictates our behaviour more than we even realize. It's the culture that is driving these differences to equality with no great success this far. However I want to say that I'm a big fan of equal culture, but it doesn't often happen in the real world because the real differences between men and women.
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Well look at the difference between mathematics and computer science. Both were considered the domain of men before, with hand-wavy explanations for hunter instincts informing logic. Nowadays women are just as successful at maths, apart from at the absolute highest echelons. But women are still generally rare computing, in spite of it requiring the same mental aptitude as mathematics. The difference can only be cultural, and it really is a huge difference.
Consider also the big rise in women in politics. Or in any other male-dominated field in the last 70 years. It's not all equal but it's a lot more equal than it was. This is cultural norms being overcome.
Honestly biology may have some small factor, but when the differences are so extreme as to have only 3% of the userbase one gender (as with roguelikes) it suggests something much more than biology at play.
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There are major biological differences between men and women. Looks at the stats for IQs on women - generally a tight grouping on the average. IQs for men are all over the damn place - more geniuses, more idiots. Different parts of our brains light up when we're doing the same things; more accurately, women tend to activate more of their brains when doing the same things as men. They're better lateral thinkers on average. Maybe it's the myopia of male focus (again, on average) that makes men more into RLs.
There are definite, scientifically verified, major differences between the ways our brains work. Trivializing these differences brings us further away from understanding one another; it not only intentionally distorts the debate, but it obscures information that would make it easier to communicate across the gender divide. After all, the operating assumption is that all of this study and attempt at dialog creates a better understanding, more equality, thus a better world, no? So, my fellow progressives, why equivocate about this? Are we afraid that acknowledging these facts will weaken our position? If so, if we're being that tactical and disingenuous, why discuss anything at all? Let's just lobby our groups and indoctrinate first-year sociology students like we always do.
Of course, it is also patently ridiculous to deny that there are significant cultural barriers between women and achievement in areas where they have been traditionally excluded. That is an argument right out of the 40s-50s and I am frankly surprised to see it from someone who knows how to use the internet. Read the newspaper, or better yet, talk to some guys at a bar to get a flavor for the hidden underbelly of misogyny that still pervades a lot of the civilized world.
By the same token, I've seen absolutely no tit-for-tat factor when it comes to spheres where women dominate: women are CRUSHING men in school. Women are taking over the field of medicine. As far as that goes, the only concern I hear from the progressive camp is that the trend is not pervasive enough, i.e. "Why aren't there more female programmers?"
I guess both sides are playing their cards pretty close to their chest. Love is a Battlefield.
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An episode of Roguelike Radio on women & roguelikes would be really interesting, provided the panel was comprised mostly women who play roguelikes. Johanna Ploog would obviously be awesome to have on. Tiffany Martin from Cake Pie (http://cake-pie.com/about/ (http://cake-pie.com/about/)) would also be great. She's written about an experience on the Dredmor forums where one of the devs laid down the smack on casual sexism: http://cake-pie.com/women-gamers-gaslamp-games-forums-are-amazing/931/ (http://cake-pie.com/women-gamers-gaslamp-games-forums-are-amazing/931/)). Additionally, I know a couple female mathematicians who play nethack (whether I can get them to agree to a podcast is uncertain).
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I'd like to have Johanna on to talk about DCSS and roguelikes design. I'd like to have Tiffany on to discuss Dredmor (winning with a random build is awesome). Having them on just because the episode is about women seems insulting.
Plus I worry about the underbelly of misogyny it would expose in the roguelike community. Some of the reaction I've seen to Tiffany's blog post has been quite disgusting, for instance. Not from abject sexism, but just dumb ignorance. Some people I otherwise respect reveal themselves to have very backwards stances on this subject.
Oh, and on the IRDC episode we talked briefly with Johanna about why so few women are into RLs, and her response was "Don't ask me, I'm obviously not normal" ;)
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Having them on just because the episode is about women seems insulting.
Perhaps you're right, and it's of course totally y'alls call, but I think it's all about how you phrase it. Johanna and Tiffany wouldn't be on the panel just because they're women, they'd be there because they are distinguished women whose opinions interest us. I've seen panels like this in the math world that worked really well.
Plus I worry about the underbelly of misogyny it would expose in the roguelike community. Some of the reaction I've seen to Tiffany's blog post has been quite disgusting, for instance. Not from abject sexism, but just dumb ignorance. Some people I otherwise respect reveal themselves to have very backwards stances on this subject.
That's a legitimate worry, but I don't think silence is a better answer.
p.s. - I'm a huge fan of roguelike radio! you all do an excellent job!
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An episode of Roguelike Radio on women & roguelikes would be really interesting, provided the panel was comprised mostly women who play roguelikes.
I think it's a bad idea. A really, really bad idea. I don't think that gender is important when you talk about games. People, regardless of gender, play games because it's fun. That's your answer on why some women play roguelikes. If those people are game developers, then make roguelike radio episode inviting them because they are awesome game developers. Not because they are female. Otherwise it will probably be a discussion about stereotypes and that's not the most thrilling subject, not for a fun podcast about games, anyway.
I don't really see the reason to care that much about women who play roguelike games at all. You will never meet us in real life anyway :)
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Hah, very true. Behind these anonymous personas perhaps all of us are actually women pretending to be male roguelike players and developers. Cause y'know seriously, what else would cool women like us pretend to be...? ;)
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(accidental double post, but not to be confused with the missing post I mentioned)
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I wrote reply to this thread already but it seems that I either failed at posting or it was deleted. I'm just gonna post again.
I'm going to focus on the good points people had to say here.
An episode of Roguelike Radio on women & roguelikes would be really interesting, provided the panel was comprised mostly women who play roguelikes. Johanna Ploog would obviously be awesome to have on. Tiffany Martin from Cake Pie (http://cake-pie.com/about/ (http://cake-pie.com/about/)) would also be great. She's written about an experience on the Dredmor forums where one of the devs laid down the smack on casual sexism: http://cake-pie.com/women-gamers-gaslamp-games-forums-are-amazing/931/ (http://cake-pie.com/women-gamers-gaslamp-games-forums-are-amazing/931/)). Additionally, I know a couple female mathematicians who play nethack (whether I can get them to agree to a podcast is uncertain).
I think this is a terrific idea. I'm not specifically endorsing myself here but in general I'd like to see people included in discussion who aren't normally represented. Naturally these should still be people who have something of value to contribute, but we should stop acting like only guys play rogues.
I think it's a bad idea. A really, really bad idea. I don't think that gender is important when you talk about games. People, regardless of gender, play games because it's fun. That's your answer on why some women play roguelikes. If those people are game developers, then make roguelike radio episode inviting them because they are awesome game developers. Not because they are female. Otherwise it will probably be a discussion about stereotypes and that's not the most thrilling subject, not for a fun podcast about games, anyway.
I don't really see the reason to care that much about women who play roguelike games at all. You will never meet us in real life anyway
I think that you raise an important concern. I'd hate to see this done horribly too. It'd be easy to do that, without any research or effort you could just ask boring, predictable, stereotypical questions that don't mean anything or act like we're magic for playing a hard game. I was involved in 2010 in the Three Moves Ahead podcast talking about women in strategy gaming. The demographics are low for women in strategy gaming too, and the podcast was done really well so I know this can work, it just requires some finesse. Just because an idea could go wrong doesn't mean it needs to be shut down.
I'd really think women would join communities and play more games where women are underrepresented if people were more welcoming. Having women visible helps create a welcoming atmosphere.
As for me, I'd think it's smart to look for new perspectives beyond the only one usually represented. Grab a disabled rogue expert, or someone who's gay, or a woman, or wtf someone who isn't English/American/Australian.
TL;DR: Include women good. Be a dick bad.
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Are you really suggesting we don't have enough international accents on the podcast...? Disabilities is something I'd like to cover more - we're arranging an episode about designing for the visually impaired right now, but there are wider accessibility issues too. A gender podcast seems weird though. It's something that's more to do with how communities behave, not how the games are made or designed. Roguelikes thankfully tend to avoid misogyny ingrained in the artwork or gameplay...
But I do agree more visibility of women into roguelikes would be a positive thing.
Have you a link to the TMA episode you mentioned? I'm curious to see how they dealt with the subject matter.
By the way we were thinking of inviting you on another Dredmor episode, TheCakePie, on account of you being a skilled player who has publicly blogged about the game. We don't really have any concrete plans though...
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Are you really suggesting we don't have enough international accents on the podcast...?
No, and I guess I could have been more clear. I was making a general statement about inclusiveness of underrepresented persons. I made a list of examples of what I meant but it wasn't aimed at your podcast directly.
Disabilities is something I'd like to cover more - we're arranging an episode about designing for the visually impaired right now, but there are wider accessibility issues too.
I like that idea too. The importance of accessibility is becoming more known, and as such I'm sure there'd be a lot to discuss.
A gender podcast seems weird though. It's something that's more to do with how communities behave, not how the games are made or designed. Roguelikes thankfully tend to avoid misogyny ingrained in the artwork or gameplay...
But I do agree more visibility of women into roguelikes would be a positive thing.
It's too bad you think it'd be weird. I thought about the problems that might come up and I thought they were solvable, but it's not my podcast, lol. I think you're right that rogues are one of the more gender inclusive games, and it's likely one reason I always seem to drift toward them.
Have you a link to the TMA episode you mentioned? I'm curious to see how they dealt with the subject matter.
Yeah, NP I just didn't want to put it up and open the floor to hellacious trolling. Three Moves Ahead Ep 48: The Gaming Gender Gap: http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2010/01/19/three-moves-ahead-episode-48-the-gaming-gender-gap/ (http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2010/01/19/three-moves-ahead-episode-48-the-gaming-gender-gap/)
By the way we were thinking of inviting you on another Dredmor episode, TheCakePie, on account of you being a skilled player who has publicly blogged about the game. We don't really have any concrete plans though...
Considering including me is news to me, thank you. (You know I don't just play Dredmor, right?) I'm pretty surprised I was actually mentioned in this discussion at all, but if you still think about it I'm openminded to discussion about that at some point. Anything like that would have to wait a while, I'm adjusting to some hardcore meds. I'm easy to find though so get in touch if you want to talk about it later.
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Welcome Cake. No worries about trolling here. We only really have one troll, but he's more just a negative nancy than a died in the wool shit starter. Wait...is 'negative nancy' sexist? Lol...
As far as gender disparity and all of that, I figure as long as choices are available and doors are open then it's all good.
I have a buddy that can't play games anymore unless he sneaks around because his lady thinks it's a juvenile waste of time. That may be a different topic, but the interplay of gender, relationships, social 'norms' and gamer shame is a very interesting one. It's bound to whip up all types of speak first think later comments, but still interesting.
I am guilty of such things myself. I'll not ride the high horse. I recently equated owning a MAC to being one of those sissy kids that plays soccer (a uniquely American stereotype)...I defended the statement at the time but in hindsight feel like a moron. Stupid is as stupid does, so they say.
-Jo
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But I do agree more visibility of women into roguelikes would be a positive thing.
Why? Does it matter what is the gender of a player?
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I don't really see the reason to care that much about women who play roguelike games at all. You will never meet us in real life anyway :)
That's funny, because every time there is a woman on a forum like this someone is always getting that girl. Well, not maybe here, because this is a global forum and distances are long, but anyway. It always happens: a nerdy, but sexy girl appears on forums and some god damn ass is secretly hitting on her. I've started to see that as a sole purpose of women appearing on forums. They don't even try to discuss anything related to the subject.
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Well Krice it doesn't matter in some respects, but when something is so obviously awesome it is definitely a legit line of inquiry as to why it is largely recognized by dudes and not ladies.
So you ask questions. Interesting questions. Are we designing things that only dudes like? What does that even mean? Is there a way we can include women and basically double the number of players? Without pandering? Can we even discuss this topic without seeming ignorant? Uninformed?
The community is already enriched because now I have Cake's blog on my radar.
EDIT: "Forums like this"... Krice. Dude. There are no forums like this. We talked about this man. This is the bestest most respectfulest forum there is! It's the only one I go to. I can't handle the other ones. I do comment on RRR and ASCII DREAMS.
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So you ask questions. Interesting questions. Are we designing things that only dudes like? What does that even mean? Is there a way we can include women and basically double the number of players? Without pandering? Can we even discuss this topic without seeming ignorant? Uninformed?
As for me (and I don't speak for ALL women just me) I like all sincere questions. I think it hinders discussion when people are too afraid to sound "stupid," "ignorant," or "sexist".
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It's too bad you think it'd be weird. I thought about the problems that might come up and I thought they were solvable, but it's not my podcast, lol. I think you're right that rogues are one of the more gender inclusive games, and it's likely one reason I always seem to drift toward them.
I'm not dead-set against it, I just have reservations. I'll listen to the TMA ep and have a think about it. I certainly don't want to approach a subject so grand as "The Gaming Gender Gap".
Also I'd really want a female developer on, because I think that's an important area that's even more distorted than the player scene. But, well, there aren't any :/ Uh, you fancy doing a 7DRL? :P
Considering including me is news to me, thank you. (You know I don't just play Dredmor, right?) I'm pretty surprised I was actually mentioned in this discussion at all, but if you still think about it I'm openminded to discussion about that at some point. Anything like that would have to wait a while, I'm adjusting to some hardcore meds. I'm easy to find though so get in touch if you want to talk about it later.
I know in Dredmor you won with a random build GR PD, and though I know from your blog you've played other RLs extensively I'm not aware of anything quite so equally badass you've achieved - correct me if I'm wrong! I've tried random rolls several times to mediocre results. It was only relatively recently (about the same time as your random victory in fact) that I beat the game myself. Also any discussion of Dredmor is worth worth including mention of how cool the community and the devs themselves are, and you seemed well-placed to communicate that.
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Also I'd really want a female developer on, because I think that's an important area that's even more distorted than the player scene. But, well, there aren't any :/
Well, there's ywgdana (CrashRun) right here on the forums. Don't hear from her a lot these days, though.
As always,
Minotauros
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It's too bad you think it'd be weird. I thought about the problems that might come up and I thought they were solvable, but it's not my podcast, lol. I think you're right that rogues are one of the more gender inclusive games, and it's likely one reason I always seem to drift toward them.
I'm not dead-set against it, I just have reservations. I'll listen to the TMA ep and have a think about it. I certainly don't want to approach a subject so grand as "The Gaming Gender Gap".
That sounds reasonable. I'm always for more research, but then again, my thoroughness is part of why I'm into RLs. If you guys come up with anything I for one would be interested in listening.
Also I'd really want a female developer on, because I think that's an important area that's even more distorted than the player scene. But, well, there aren't any :/ Uh, you fancy doing a 7DRL? :P
I did a little python, javascript, and whatever php garbage wordpress is made out of, but I don't think that makes me ready for a 7DRL. There must be women devs out there in Rogues, the more welcoming to women a place can be the higher the chances are of finding them.
I know in Dredmor you won with a random build GR PD, and though I know from your blog you've played other RLs extensively I'm not aware of anything quite so equally badass you've achieved - correct me if I'm wrong! I've tried random rolls several times to mediocre results. It was only relatively recently (about the same time as your random victory in fact) that I beat the game myself. Also any discussion of Dredmor is worth worth including mention of how cool the community and the devs themselves are, and you seemed well-placed to communicate that.
Haha, yeah, not just GR/PD random, but with a dead skill too. Anyway, I've also beaten POWDER 2x now. I've beaten so many of the Hack, Slash, Loot levels as well, now just to unlock all the achievements. Nothing else that compares as for accomplishments, but I play everything RL. My plans are to focus on Dredmor for now, but move into writing about powder then tome. Next could be anything (FTL?) I'm really good so I don't doubt being able to eventually ascend in any rogue I start to play. One person suggested I do a let's play video, and I'm also considering that. I'm nervous about video because I hate when people are stupid dicks to me, and with my current physical limitations things like that are long-term considerations at best. I'm seeing a bit more interest in rogues, and part of why I'm blogging about them is to try to get more people to play. Dredmor so far is an excellent gateway drug (: What do you think? Are RLs getting more attention lately?
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Oh yes definitely. The upcoming Cardinal Quest 2 release will also be a good gateway game, along with the original.
You've beaten Powder as well? Nice.
Have you checked out Brogue? It's ASCII but it's beautiful. Andrew Doull of Ascii Dreams put out a fork of it recently that's interesting. The original Brogue is the only RL I consider a MUST PLAY, the rest are according to taste.
With the success of games like Dredmore, Cardinal and Dwarf Fortress along with the rise in popularity of independent gaming the Roguelike genre is certainly seeing a renaissance. One of the biggest games out there, ADOM, is getting a facelift and update soon. There was a massive Indiegogo campaign to fund it, over $90k.
So like, yeah. More exposure. Tons.
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Hey Cake, instead of a LET'S PLAY consider making a strategy vid?
"Let's Beat Powder"
"Let's Beat Dredmor"
Just a thought.
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I did a little python, javascript, and whatever php garbage wordpress is made out of, but I don't think that makes me ready for a 7DRL.
You'd be surprised! After beating a number of roguelikes it's really satisfying to try and make your own. Plus of all the game types out there it's one of the easiest to make. A bit of python jiggling with libtcod and you can have your own @ romping around the screen killing whatever type of enemy you like.
There must be women devs out there in Rogues, the more welcoming to women a place can be the higher the chances are of finding them.
For ages I thought Linley was a woman's name and that roguelikes were truly gender open since one of the biggest and best came from a woman. Then I found out Linley was a bloke ;) Only women devs I know of: Johanna Ploog (who now works for a game company and can't publicly express any original ideas), ywgdana (not seen in two years), Jana Reinhardt (artist and designer for Pitman Krumb, but not a coder and more a general indie dev than a roguelike dev). So, uh, no one to interview :(
The gender inequality in development isn't a roguelike-specific thing though - general indie game development is just as bad. Most women involved are artists or writers rather than coders. It comes back to penetration (sorry Jo!) - in a male dominated area (gaming) the extremes of that area (development) will be even more male dominated. Indie gaming and development is even more of an extreme, and roguelike gaming and development is one of the craziest extremes of all! Though gaming is becoming a more equal hobby I fear it will take a long time for that equality to seep through to all of the extremes.
Haha, yeah, not just GR/PD random, but with a dead skill too. Anyway, I've also beaten POWDER 2x now. I've beaten so many of the Hack, Slash, Loot levels as well, now just to unlock all the achievements. Nothing else that compares as for accomplishments, but I play everything RL. My plans are to focus on Dredmor for now, but move into writing about powder then tome. Next could be anything (FTL?) I'm really good so I don't doubt being able to eventually ascend in any rogue I start to play.
You should take up FTL so I have someone to compete against ;) After winning a no-shops run whilst everyone else whines the game is all about luck with shops I feel there's little challenge or competition. It is frighteningly addictive though. And I'd love to see you writing about ToME, since I've put a lot of work into the lore in the game and pushed for much of its interface polish.
Also Toby the Trapper and Unstoppable remain unbeaten if you feel up to a challenge ;)
One person suggested I do a let's play video, and I'm also considering that. I'm nervous about video because I hate when people are stupid dicks to me
Disable Youtube comments! They contain nothing but misery. Keep comments to your blog where you'll have a more receptive audience that actually gives a shit about what you're doing.
Dredmor so far is an excellent gateway drug (: What do you think? Are RLs getting more attention lately?
Yeah, definitely, and Dredmor has been a big part of that. Though in truth it started with Spelunky several years ago. Games like The Binding of Isaac and FTL are continuing the trend of pushing the roguelike term, and there's a kinda sense in indie communities that roguelikes are the cool thing right now.
However I do worry it doesn't lead to a lot of penetration into the core roguelike market. I've seen a lot of people comment that they love the likes of FTL and Isaac, but could never touch the proper stuff. The basic or absent graphics is such a huge hurdle for so many people. Which is a shame, because there's a real lack of games in general that focus on the gameplay rather than the graphics.
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With the success of games like Dredmore, Cardinal and Dwarf Fortress along with the rise in popularity of independent gaming the Roguelike genre is certainly seeing a renaissance.
I still need to get my Roguelike Renaissance talk from IRDC online :/
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I still need to get my Roguelike Renaissance talk from IRDC online :/
Yes. You do. Please!
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[SNIP]
I have a buddy that can't play games anymore unless he sneaks around because his lady thinks it's a juvenile waste of time. That may be a different topic, but the interplay of gender, relationships, social 'norms' and gamer shame is a very interesting one. It's bound to whip up all types of speak first think later comments, but still interesting.
[SNIP]
-Jo
That, dude.
Gamer shame, own and vicarious (like your friend's lady) is at the root here, I think.
If it's any help, my g/f takes interest in few videogames, but when she does she takes them damn seriously (Patrician III, Arcanum, Dwarf Fortress, Bejeweled) to name a few for which she has more bragging rights than I.
The question of making games that the ladies like is kind of moot, since any given person likes whatever games s/he likes for the most irrelevant reasons. I damn know there are games apparently heavily geared towards guys that I don't give a hoot about. Why? Because they're aimed for a certain type of gamer, who happens to usually be male.
Srsly, this is all about what do we think we're supposed to like and therefore feel more open/not ashamed to try.
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Perhaps someone should make a roguelike with a girl protagonist. That'd be neato.
I have an idea to create a roguelike about some problems that women face (a bit like Broken Bottle is about alcoholism). Maybe a 7DRL, but I am not sure whether it would really make sense (from gameplay, psychological and social perspective). By the way, a very active thread, Jo has just posted this and we are already two pages later.
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I once tried thinking up a character-based roguelike like Broken Bottle with a female protagonist and quickly found myself devolving into stereotypes. I decided in the end to stick to what I know better.
Incidentally, regarding the whole thing of women in maths/science, this is intensely relevant:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/19/scientists-your-gender-bias-is-showing/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CosmicVariance+%28Cosmic+Variance%29
Double-blind study of same CVs for scientific roles found CVs with female names on them were rated about 20% lower and judged to be worth much lower salaries on average. Both men and women rated the female CVs lower, showing that gender bias is prevalent throughout society.
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with a female protagonist
Tomb RaideRL.
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Well there's been PrincessRL for a while...
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My idea for a 7DRL: «Motherhood», a fast-paced RL-like platformer – can you keep all your septuplets dry, fed, rested, and not-run-over-by-a-car?!
As always,
Miotauros
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with a female protagonist
Tomb RaideRL.
KillBillRL
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Tomb RaideRL.
Hm, my girlfriend is trying to make exactly this.
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Tomb RaideRL.
Hm, my girlfriend is trying to make exactly this.
Congrats on your girl :)
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Considering including me is news to me, thank you. (You know I don't just play Dredmor, right?) I'm pretty surprised I was actually mentioned in this discussion at all, but if you still think about it I'm openminded to discussion about that at some point. Anything like that would have to wait a while, I'm adjusting to some hardcore meds. I'm easy to find though so get in touch if you want to talk about it later.
I raised the possibility as part of a 'we should really do a its been a year of Dredmor' follow up episode. Nothing really concrete beyond that: we have a lot of episode ideas and not enough time at the moment.
Also the trolling about gender would get drowned out by the trolling about Dredmor not being a real roguelike.
As for disabled gamers, we're actively working on organising a podcast relating to that at the moment.
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@Doull - Regarding that, I did see the post on your blog, I was wondering how far it extends? Disability is such a vast and individual thing, you know?
Also I should caution. Even more than when discussing gender or race, it is very easy to sound like a backward dick when discussing disabilities. Even if you are a perfectly nice and understanding person. Many can understand physical disabilities, but cognitive disabilities can be strange and impossible to classify.
I figure you and Grey and the rest will do just fine, but I just wanted to throw that out there.
-Jo
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Visual impairments is the main focus, as that has special applications with screen readers and audio feedback, and there are a fair number of blind roguelike players.
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My late uncle was blind, and my dad is colour blind, so I'm hoping we get a useful discussion [1].
We tend to save the wild irreverence and speculation for when we have to actually play then talk about a roguelike.
[1] Not that either of them played roguelikes, but I'd hate to have to explain to Dad why I made a public dick of myself on a topic somewhat close to him.
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I think women destroyed this forum.
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Is there an "Ignore this user's posts"button?
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I think women destroyed this forum.
What are you drunk? Quit being dumb fuck.
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Don't rise to bait, Jo.
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What are you drunk?
Well where is all the discussion about roguelikes? It stopped when we realized there is a woman here. Hence women kill roguelike forums.
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Well the Nethack valkyrie is exclusively female. I wonder if the dwarven ones have beards?
also:
I think women destroyed this forum.
PENIS PENIS PENIS
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Don't rise to bait, Jo.
Agreed.
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Only dicks can save us now. A HUGE BAG OF DICKS.
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Only dicks can save us now. A HUGE BAG OF DICKS.
You mean a bag full of bloody, amputated peckers or a bag full of Krice people?
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Apologies for resurrecting the thread; I just spotted it and had something to contribute. In the interests of getting this thread slightly back on track, here are my own experiences. My flatmate is a female gamer in her 20s, and she has a very similar gaming philosophy to mine - which is to say, the tougher the game, the better. On the rare non-roguelike that allows permadeath, she puts it on a fair percentage of the time. When I started developing my game, she'd never really heard of roguelikes except in passing when I mentioned them, but as I discuss a lot of my game development with her, and she's become very interested in the genre.
Based on my experience, I'd therefore propose it is an awareness/visibility issue, not a willingness/interest issue. Roguelikes are closely tied to a lot of communities that have small female populations, and the same problems arise. Disparities in maths/"logic" groups are not anything innate; there's a vast host of historical and sociological reasons behind those demographic biases. Anyway, based upon the female gamers I know in person (flatmate and one other), 100% are interested in roguelikes. Whilst this is obviously a meaninglessly small sample-size, I don't think the "more men play roguelikes" problem is any different, ultimately, to the "more men play non-casual games" issue. No intelligent female gamer interested in a real challenge is going to be put off any more than an intelligent male gamer with the equivalent mindset.
ANYWAY, after this ramble - I think it's nothing more than an extension of the existing gender gaps in gaming. Maybe an extreme example and quantitatively different, but not qualitatively different. As for doing something about it... I'll get back to you on that.
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There reason there are no women in computer science is because of the men of computer science. In no other classes did I encounter such overwhelming social ineptitude as in my compsci classes. No sane woman - hell no sane man - would want to spend time among them.
There are exceptions, generalisations, blah blah
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In no other classes did I encounter such overwhelming social ineptitude as in my compsci classes.
There are some things that require less social abilities. But why anyone would have to care about that? (women do I guess..)
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There reason there are no women in computer science is because of the men of computer science. In no other classes did I encounter such overwhelming social ineptitude as in my compsci classes. No sane woman - hell no sane man - would want to spend time among them.
There are exceptions, generalisations, blah blah
Though anecdotal, I have to agree. The breaking point for me came during an engineering class where the teacher had us break up into groups but my classmates could not communicate effectively enough to split into groups. It was truly amazing. There were a couple of ladies in the class, but they all had the same socially inept brains.
I knew I'd rather kill myself than work with these people for the rest of my days. When people are that bad at communicating I actually get very anxious and become a bit of a boob myself. It's torture for me. Maybe you'd have to meet me to understand, I'm incredibly social. That annoying butterfly guy that wants to be everyone's friend.
So I dropped out of engineering and reset my minor as my major. My professors in History had been asking me for over a year to come over and run their archeology club programs as well as join the graduate level classes. So I did. This led to a doctorate later. Good move for me.
Different brains are good at different things. Hormones in the womb control a large amount of brain structure. With social norms playing such a huge role, it's hard to tell how much chemistry controls aptitude.
EDIT: It should be noted that though I did have some engineering aptitude, I did not have much. Does aptitude for this cancel out the social aptitude? That's a great question, I don't think there's an answer. Individually obviously it's not true (no generalization is true individually) but at the society level it might be interesting to study.
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When people are that bad at communicating
It's not that simple. I think many people assume a certain type of communication which is closely related to social structure of mind. Many intelligent people don't neccessarily have a strong social structure. I'm an extreme example because of my high intelligence. The way I don't fit in makes most people feel uneasy. It's possibly something like meeting a being from outer space who is superior to you. I don't know how it feels, because I've never met more intelligent person than I am.
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In no other classes did I encounter such overwhelming social ineptitude as in my compsci classes.
There are some things that require less social abilities. But why anyone would have to care about that? (women do I guess..)
I can tell you're one of the people I talk about.
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There reason there are no women in computer science is because of the men of computer science. In no other classes did I encounter such overwhelming social ineptitude as in my compsci classes. No sane woman - hell no sane man - would want to spend time among them.
There are exceptions, generalisations, blah blah
Though anecdotal, I have to agree. The breaking point for me came during an engineering class where the teacher had us break up into groups but my classmates could not communicate effectively enough to split into groups. It was truly amazing. There were a couple of ladies in the class, but they all had the same socially inept brains.
I knew I'd rather kill myself than work with these people for the rest of my days. When people are that bad at communicating I actually get very anxious and become a bit of a boob myself. It's torture for me. Maybe you'd have to meet me to understand, I'm incredibly social. That annoying butterfly guy that wants to be everyone's friend.
So I dropped out of engineering and reset my minor as my major. My professors in History had been asking me for over a year to come over and run their archeology club programs as well as join the graduate level classes. So I did. This led to a doctorate later. Good move for me.
Different brains are good at different things. Hormones in the womb control a large amount of brain structure. With social norms playing such a huge role, it's hard to tell how much chemistry controls aptitude.
EDIT: It should be noted that though I did have some engineering aptitude, I did not have much. Does aptitude for this cancel out the social aptitude? That's a great question, I don't think there's an answer. Individually obviously it's not true (no generalization is true individually) but at the society level it might be interesting to study.
Congratulations on realising what I did, and doing what I *should* have done.
Oh well :(
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When people are that bad at communicating
It's not that simple. I think many people assume a certain type of communication which is closely related to social structure of mind. Many intelligent people don't neccessarily have a strong social structure. I'm an extreme example because of my high intelligence. The way I don't fit in makes most people feel uneasy. It's possibly something like meeting a being from outer space who is superior to you. I don't know how it feels, because I've never met more intelligent person than I am.
This is pure gold.
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I can tell you're one of the people I talk about.
No you can't. You don't know me.
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I can tell you're one of the people I talk about.
No you can't. You don't know me.
Exactly, plus there's a difference between socially inept (being a boob) and anti-social (being an asshole).
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Not surprising - as enjoying a roguelike is 99% about dealing with logical-mathematical challenges, which isn't exactly known to be women's cup of tea.
My wife is a woman (duh!) and she doesn't like roguelikes with ASCII symbols, but she enjoys isometric or graphical tiled RLs.
In fact, I presented her NetHack in ASCII mode some years ago, but she didn't like it, nor understood it well enough to play it properly. But then, two or three days after that, I presented her NetHack with Falcon's Eye mode, and she liked it quite a bit, she even played it like almost lets say, Diablo or something and enjoyed quite a lot.
She doesn't understand well an ASCII roguelike, but she can beat most Sudokus in relatively little amount of time, which have a lot of logic into it, as far as I know. So I'm not sure if the problem here is the logical-mathematical challenge, I think it is more about the abstract way of thinking and representation.
In fact, she played WoW for around 6 years, but don't ask her to play a Pen&Paper roleplaying game. I don't think she will wake up and go to computer semi-naked to play NetHack, but hell, she did that with WoW to check auction house at 4:00 am local time. ^_^
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I think it's just a matter of approaching the unfamiliar. Women are less likely to be exposed to ASCII roguelikes, and just like many male players they're instantly turned off them.
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I can tell you're one of the people I talk about.
No you can't. You don't know me.
Just a hunch.
More on topic, I dislike it when there's a huge gender disparity in things. A bit of balance is always good.
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Agreed, but with that I hesitate to advocate change in order to be inclusive. Unless that change is to stop being purposefully exclusional.
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Yeah I dunno what specifically could be done except "not treating women different". Which I don't. I would imagine that there are a fair few women who don't make it public. And I can't blame them.
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Best bet is to both start early in the schools before they start going ballistic and splitting everybody apart and a bit of momentum from the times of ladies than enjoy any number of games to come to enjoy even more of them----it will take awhile in any case unless a rockstar female figure manifests and sheds light on it and challenges the perceptions of the day. I know there's already been some in programming in general back in the formative years, but people need contemporary figures to aspire to moreso than historical ones for a real shot in the arm in a broad sense.
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I dislike it when there's a huge gender disparity in things.
Women aren't interested about roguelikes. It's not serious though. It's funny how doing something manly (like being a soldier or playing roguelikes) is always a statement to women. For me it's nothing. Women think they are somehow better than men if they do ordinary things. They're so full of themselves. Play roguelikes and stop whining about inequality.
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Best bet is to both start early in the schools before they start going ballistic and splitting everybody apart and a bit of momentum from the times of ladies than enjoy any number of games to come to enjoy even more of them----it will take awhile in any case unless a rockstar female figure manifests and sheds light on it and challenges the perceptions of the day. I know there's already been some in programming in general back in the formative years, but people need contemporary figures to aspire to moreso than historical ones for a real shot in the arm in a broad sense.
You know this is an interesting point. If Steve Jobs had been Susan Jobs, I wonder if we wouldn't see a larger female presence in computing.
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I blame the stereotype they literally teach in latter school years in no small part---the one that says "all girls are better typists than guys, get used to it, but that's about all they have for it".
A Susan Jobs might have had that result, might not. The key thing is somebody on the young side coming forward and knocking something big out of the park----the deck is stacked enough against it as it is without over wrought age discrimination coming into play and making people think "I can't" needlessly.
The allure of (new) money would be pretty potent though, as what lists are generally kept are aimed at Wealthiest Men, with token women mentions almost always being Old Money, or business hacks ala Professional Wrestling/E-bay.
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I blame the stereotype they literally teach in latter school years in no small part
People always blame something else when they can't accept the reality. For them equality is true when they find some example of a woman that acts like a man. It's really ironic.
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It isn't about the typing thing explicitly, as I suppose there are some old studies on it, but I tend to reject any universal notions of "set your expectations low" in terms of the broader realm of beyond banging away on a typewriter---regardless of gender. Raw aptitude and eventual prowess depends on the individual, but the expectation should be the same for everybody, that being generally mysterious since nobody pops out instinctively even knowing so much as how to check an e-mail, as folks tends to discover how far they can go on a given thing along the journey---not before even starting it barring explicit circumstances.