Women & Roguelikes

[jim]

Boobs!

Ahem, sorry. Women can and do play roguelikes, though I think it's pretty non-controversial to say that most women have a far more casual relationship with video games than male gamers, and therefore you're going to see fewer female roguelikers.

Most women I've spoken to don't really "get" games that present obstacles between themselves and enjoyment. Roguelikes are full of those obstacles, the interface probably being at the heart of things. However, all three of the women who I managed to get to sit down and spend the time with Dungeon Crawl needed in order to get to the point where they could see past the sybmols and memorize the keystrokes ended up enjoying the game. Not just that: they "got" it.

For instance, I could see the calm, analytical concern on their faces when they were trapped in a hallway with centaur archers. They understood the gravity of the situation, and they'd check their hit points and teleport scroll supply.

They would bust out with obscenities when an advanced character died, and they would explain to my WHY the character died, and discuss ways in which to prevent future deaths. Such discussions usually ended with an informal ode to the particular character's accomplishments. That is to say, they knew and appreciated the purpose of permadeath.

That which was at first an obstacle - the lack of graphics - also later came to be appreciated; they didn't have to be constrained by the battle animations of commercial games and were allowed to envision whatever they wanted (a lack of thongs and D-cups on the little @ probably helped there.) One said to me that the reason she liked roguelikes were because they were "symbolic puzzle games with playful imagination at their nerdy heart." Really clever, I thought, but then she was an English major and profundity was her job. Each of them also liked that they could get up and make a cup of tea while they thought about what their next moves should be, or just save and walk away at any time: there was never any need to play for 4 hours in a row in order to get anywhere, ala Skyrim.

All were addicts for a time. Two still play it to this day, which means that their relationship with DCSS ran deeper than their relationship with me, thus DCSS is more of a man than I am. But I won out against DCSS on the last one.

[guest509]

  Stereotyping can be dangerous as people often think it applies to the individual, and behave that way. Individuals often think you are applying the stereotype to them even if you aren't. What's worse is when the stereotype is incorrect, or even worse when the stereotype becomes a self fulfilling prophecy (see 'girls aren't good at math').

  Yet the human brain works by categorizing things, making assumptions. If you didn't start with a template for each new person you meet the world would be impossible to navigate.

  I'd say that many assumptions are best eradicated. 'Gurlz don't likes teh maths' is one of those.

-Jo

[Skeletor]

Of course there are some women into math and logics, but proportionally there are less women than men into them.

Women are usually more into getting satisfaction from social stuff.

At least that's my perception.

[Darren Grey]

You're generalising again!  There are *lots* of women into maths and logic, and by saying "it's not a woman's cup of tea" you're implying that they are odd and should be treated as odd.  You may not mean that of course, but lazy generalisations put across very negative messages.

Men like football and molesting women, for instance.  Black people are poor and uneducated.  White people are racist.  Gamers don't have friends.  This sort of shit generalisation, whatever stats/proportions may be behind it, is outright insulting to whatever group you target it at.

And on this subject I don't think the proportion of women into maths/logic is a big deal - as has been pointed out there are many top universities where the female/male ratio on maths courses is equal or more women.  Your logic, founded on crap gender stereotypes, is *completely flawed*.  The real issue here is one of culture and accessibility.  And in spite of these barriers there are many excellent women roguelike players, who may or may not have an interest in logic and maths.

Back to the original post, I wonder what the general male/female ratio on Desura is?  Might not be much better than that 3%, since it's relatively speaking an obscure service.

[Krice]

gender stereotypes

However genders are different, it's some kind of fact that can't be denied either. The real question is "so what?" It's just how genders are. These days people who recognize there actually are different human races can be accused to be a racist while it's not the point. Men and women are not equal and will never be. Women seem to like different things in general than men. Just look at us. Which one of us roguelike developers is a woman? I'm waiting...

[Darren Grey]

How much is culture and how much is genetics though?  And just because of a general trend doesn't mean there aren't exceptions.  Johanna Ploog was one of the best Crawl devs.

And this sort of thinking can be dangerous.  For a long time women were excluded from politics and other areas because it was considered "not their sort of thing".  As a society we have a duty to reject imbalances in social norms.

[Skeletor]

Haha, calm down man.
I am not generalizing, just stating my perception of reality.
You seem to take it personally as people like me were the reason why there are no girls into roguelikes (and who cares, I would say).

[Darren Grey]

No, I just generally think there's too much casual sexism on the internet and it's not very healthy for online communities.  It doesn't make a difference to how many people play roguelikes - that's its own problem stemming from how few people play roguelikes *at all* 

[Z]

Haha, calm down man.
I am not generalizing, just stating my perception of reality.
You seem to take it personally as people like me were the reason why there are no girls into roguelikes

AFAIK many people believe that the low number of girls in maths/CS is caused by such perception of reality (girls are told that this is not for them, instead of being shown successful women). Roguelikes are a niche anyway, but you get a chance to learn about roguelikes by doing maths/CS.

(and who cares, I would say)

Well I do care, I want them to play my games.

[Quendus]

I thought I'd end up having to link this report, so here it is. Some actual facts. The research was done in america but most of its conclusions would probably hold elsewhere.
http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/whysofew.cfm

Why So Few? Women in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (AAUW, 2010)
This in-depth report describes eight key research findings that point to environmental and social barriers that continue to block women’s participation and progress in science, technology, engineering, and math.

Maybe I just went to a weird university, but the proportion of women in my maths classes was pretty close to 50%, and the state of the physics department seemed pretty respectable too. Computer science takes about the same skill set, but the proportion there was a lot closer to 10%. Suggests it's something to do with computers and stereotypes about computer scientists rather than something to do with logical/mathematical thinking.

[Krice]

There are no barriers for women if they want to do something. It's not the reason. Women just don't like same things as men (usually). It's funny that equal rights seem to mean some people that there should be 50/50 distribution of men and women everywhere.

[guest509]

  When a disparity exists due to lack of opportunity, or the subtle social pressures that keep people away from a certain activity, that shit is WACK.

  If, in the case of Roguelikes, the ladies don't decide to partake then it's no biggie.

  Perhaps someone should make a roguelike with a girl protagonist. That'd be neato.

-Jo

PS: If someone makes a Roguelike about shopping that will be missing the point, but would be hilarious really. Try to make it to the end of the mall. Choose to steal, buy, switch tags on the clothes, etc. Dodge teh security guards. Sounds like a great 7DRL. But I digress.

[Z]

I have read somewhere that such roguelike should be called GiRL.

[Darren Grey]

There are no barriers for women if they want to do something. It's not the reason. Women just don't like same things as men (usually). It's funny that equal rights seem to mean some people that there should be 50/50 distribution of men and women everywhere.

It's about equal opportunity and not making presumptions.  Don't equate gender norms with expectations of the individual.  And overall men and women are more alike than they are different.  Most of the differences come about through cultural set-ups, not biology.

It works both ways of course.  There are comparatively few male nurses, air stewards or secretaries.  This is nothing to do with men being worse at these jobs, it's just a cultural set-up that says men shouldn't do these jobs.

[Krice]

Most of the differences come about through cultural set-ups, not biology.

I think it's exactly the other way: biological differences dictates our behaviour more than we even realize. It's the culture that is driving these differences to equality with no great success this far. However I want to say that I'm a big fan of equal culture, but it doesn't often happen in the real world because the real differences between men and women.