Mixing roguelike and tactical squad combat

[hawk66]

Hi all,

this is my first post here, so I say hello to everyone  .

Actually, i plan to create my own roguelike (in python) and have a modern (realistic) setting like http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=Modern_Dungeon_Exploration in mind - but with a different scenario/setting (not fully sure about this, yet).

I'd like to get some feedback about integrating a tactical squad combat system, similiar as it exist in X-COM series, in such a roguelike. I think the combat should be resolved faster - that would mean, the map for example would be smaller to fight in.

Also, in general this would be not your typical hack-and slash roguelike...so, instead of many 'dump' monsters/enemies you only face a couple of more-or less intelligent foes.

What do you think? Is it a good idea to integrate a squad-tactical combat engine in a roguelike? Another possibility would be that the tactical combat could be switched off...

[getter77]

I say go for it!  Tactical wranglings and Roguelike sensibilities should be able to mesh well with some tinkering and flavor.

[george]

I think roguelike elements (permadeath, procedural generation, goal-oriented) mesh very well with squad-level mission-based play. So I say go for it too!

[Fenrir]

A hex-based map might be cool for such a roguelike.

[Vanguard]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[RantingRodent]

I would be an instant fan of a Roguelike X-Com. I say go for it.

I'd suggest not making tactical combat optional though - do you really want to implement two combat systems?

[Z]

What is not roguelike enough in X-Com itself? The maps are randomly generated, and I think you could try playing permadeath if you wanted. (BTW I liked the predecessors of X-Com, Rebel Star and Laser Squad, more than X-Com itself... although the missions were not randomly generated, so they did not last long. You might want to try these if you like X-Com)

Guild is a roguelike where the player controls a group of adventurers, but probably that is not what you want (it is not like X-Com, and it is fantasy). And Exile/Avernum is a fantasy cRPG with gameplay much like something between X-Com and roguelike (although without random dungeons/permadeath).

[hawk66]

First, thanks for your feedback, guys.

There might be a misunderstanding. Neither I want to create a x-com clone, nor I want to create a roguelike with a X-com scenario. I have just refered to X-Com, since I like the tactical squad system there.

I want to create a modern roguelike but modern means not a sci-fi theme . I have a loosely-based 'System Shock' scenario in mind but which plays in the current time. Perhaps a squad of a SecOps in a cold war bunker etc...I am not really sure about, yet. I think I'll start with infrastructure topics, like dungeon creation, basic AI, tactical combat first. Later I would think about the 'story' engine.

Yes, the objection is right: It does not make sense to provide two combat modes (tactical squad and classic roguelike). It is just too much effort.
Now, the question is if a ASCII-representation of a 'tactical map' is feasible...I think you need a somehow isometric/3D map to make the combat interesting (hiding etc.)
Do you think this could be somehow accomplished with pure ASCII (at least for the first version)?

[Z]

I don't know why would you need isometric/3D for that... the tactical system used in most roguelikes works very well in ASCII. That's a single character, not a squad (although against a squad), but that's not a problem.

Rebel Star/Laser Squad had a 2D system which I liked very much: when you switched to the "shoot mode", some objects changed shape: all creatures turned into circles, objects which did not obstruct the line of fire (like moon craters) disappeared. And when you shot, a straight line was drawn from your circle in some direction, and it either hit the enemy circle, or something else. (So if a small robot was on the line to a larger one, you could either shoot the small one, or miss the small one and hit the big one. You could also precisely aim the larger one off center, if you wanted to miss the small one.) That seems impossible in ASCII, of course. (A roguelike with circle graphics and straight line aiming instead of ASCII? That could be original...)

[OverEmbalmed]

The only setback that come to mind for me is conveying a bunch of tactical information in an easy to interpret way.  


Here are some questions to consider while assembling your design document.


Do enemies face different directions?  Can they crouch and go prone?  In what ways does this effect gameplay?

Can the enemies predict player tactics (offensive) or is their AI more geared toward well rounded defensive tactics.  (For example, a defensive enemy's line of thinking may go like this. enemy's survival chance is high if he's in 1 of 4 corners with his 3 AI buddies.  They divide attention between all possible points of entry.  If he's alone and still has the will to fight, he is more likely to survive if he defends a bottleneck area like a hallway or alley.)

Is the enemy aware of secure and unsecure areas?  (The room behind me is secure because no one could get into it without me knowing it)

How do you convey individual character's ammo/health levels without confusing the player and without taking up a large chunk of the screen?

What properties can you give the weapons to make them useful in different situations?  How do you balance the weapons to make team mates complement eachother without absolutely needing eachother?


I hope these questions don't discourage you.  If you can handle these issues with finesse then you will make a uniquely challenging and fun game.  Good luck!

[EDIT]  Also, I believe this can all be done in color ASCII.  If you'd like to bounce some ideas off of me, send me a PM.