Rogue - let's beat it

[Squeeealer]

Vanguard - did you see the ending to my deep run yesterday? So painful. I had a lot going for me, but I needed one more trick up my sleeve...

It was Floor 21. I started in the bottom middle room and a Medusa was blocking my passage (I had a ring of stealth on). I wasted a lot of turns trying to find an alternate route until ultimately using a scroll of magic mapping, and found out that the stairs were in the adjacent room just beyond the Medusa. I thought I could beat her in hand-to-hand combat, and wanted to because I knew my wand of poly was almost out. I was barely right. With something like 12 HP left and no room to move away further I beat her with my last gasp. I hightailed it to the stairs only to find a Black Unicorn sitting on them. So then I screwed around until I had full HP, moved one space away and threw a random projectile at him. I was going to move up diagonally, then down diagonally, assume I survive the two hits, and I should have been able to go down the stairs at that point.

But when he moved one space toward me, another Medusa pops out of the hallway at the exact same time and I'm completely blocked. Out of desperation I am able to change the Black Unicorn to a Venus Flytrap, but when I use it on the Medusa it's out of charges. At this point I know it's over so I quaff a potion of monster detection. All the wasted moves has created a horde of horribles.

Looking back I don't really think there was anything I should have done differently, so at least I don't have that awful feeling of regret. Trying to find an alternate route before using up my precious scroll of magic mapping was the right move. And considering that between that scroll and the one charge of the poly, only a miracle would have made it a successful run. Hmm, but maybe not. With my ring of stealth and tons of charges on my two staves of light the key would be finding the stairs ASAP without monsters spawning. I just ran into terrible luck being forced to engage two major enemies because they were in exactly the wrong places.

This run did have a couple of firsts for me. For one, it was the first time I'd ever had a ring of stealth with enough food that I could just keep it on permanently. That was fun. It was also the first time that I had a ring of stealth on while navigating a treasure room. I still managed to bumble around and run into a Nymph who promptly stole my bow, but considering what else she could have taken I was lucky.

[Vanguard]

Vanguard - did you see the ending to my deep run yesterday? So painful. I had a lot going for me, but I needed one more trick up my sleeve...

I missed that one, but I do like to take a look when you've got a game going.  I like your lightning fast playing speed, and sometimes it's educational.

Too bad about your run, though.  This game is brutal.

You got any pro tips?  I recently learned that it's better to enter rooms vertically than horizontally.  Rooms tend to be wider than they are tall, so if you wait in the northern or southern doorway, it's more likely that an enemy will move into the spaces diagonal from your position, giving you an extra turn to react.

[Squeeealer]

Vanguard - did you see the ending to my deep run yesterday? So painful. I had a lot going for me, but I needed one more trick up my sleeve...

I missed that one, but I do like to take a look when you've got a game going.  I like your lightning fast playing speed, and sometimes it's educational.

Too bad about your run, though.  This game is brutal.

You got any pro tips?  I recently learned that it's better to enter rooms vertically than horizontally.  Rooms tend to be wider than they are tall, so if you wait in the northern or southern doorway, it's more likely that an enemy will move into the spaces diagonal from your position, giving you an extra turn to react.

Whoa, I never really thought of it that way. That's important for Medusae, but that deep in the cave I don't know if I can split hairs over which room entrance I'm taking. Good stuff.

I haven't watched enough of your play yet to see if I have anything for ya. It looked like you are still finding your rhythm in searching rooms. As a time saver, I recommend the A button for repeating actions. It makes using a bow and arrows/projectiles much faster and less chance of keystroke errors.

[Squeeealer]

***Almost forgot - the most frustrating part of this run was how poor my... hit% (?) was. Against the tougher enemies I would miss over and over again. My experience level was about right and my strength was in the 15-17 range, so I don't know what the problem was.

+A, +B weapon

First enchant parameter (A) increases chance to hit, second (B) increases damage. With no enchants your weapons would have their default chance to hit %, which is apparently quite poor against deeper level monsters. Factors that influence chance to hit are: weapon chance to hit, your strength, and monster's armor.

Thank you for this!  I never knew!  So is it random which one gets the increase when you read a scroll of enchant weapon? Does anyone have an opinion about which is preferred? I think I would much rather have the chance to hit over damage.

[elwin]

The real disadvantage of the IBM version is that nearly every room is dark even in the early parts of the game.

I didn't know that.  It sounds quite annoying.  Rogue Clone did the opposite, and abolished dark rooms entirely.

Squeeealer, I saw you walking around the treasure room with stealth, but I missed the ending.  A sad tale.  I can't think of anything you could have done differently either.

I recently got killed between two Centaurs, which could probably have been avoided if I'd used my two scrolls of enchant weapon on my long sword instead of waiting to see if a two-handed sword got generated.  I still try to conserve items too much.

+A, +B weapon

First enchant parameter (A) increases chance to hit, second (B) increases damage. With no enchants your weapons would have their default chance to hit %, which is apparently quite poor against deeper level monsters. Factors that influence chance to hit are: weapon chance to hit, your strength, and monster's armor.

Thank you for this!  I never knew!  So is it random which one gets the increase when you read a scroll of enchant weapon? Does anyone have an opinion about which is preferred? I think I would much rather have the chance to hit over damage.

Yes, it's random.  Usually I prefer the to-hit bonus, but when enchanting your original mace, you need some of both.

[Vanguard]

Thank you for this!  I never knew!  So is it random which one gets the increase when you read a scroll of enchant weapon? Does anyone have an opinion about which is preferred? I think I would much rather have the chance to hit over damage.

I'd rather have +damage on my starting mace and +hit on longswords and two handers.

I didn't know that.  It sounds quite annoying.  Rogue Clone did the opposite, and abolished dark rooms entirely.

I've played a few more rounds of that version and now I think it's probably the same.  I get superstitious when I play Rogue.  Start noticing patterns that aren't there.  Doesn't happen with any other game.

[Squeeealer]

So I've now had two runs recently where I found 5-6 rings, but only one scroll of identify. I also did not have a curselifter. What would you do in such a situation where you could tell you needed help to make it further? Would you test drive some rings or just hope there's good fortune just around the corner? What if two of the rings were identical? Would that have any bearing?

[Vanguard]

If I find one really early on I put it on, and if it's not cursed I test to see if it's regeneration, otherwise I just name it "good" so that if I do find a scroll of identify, I can find out what that one is instead of wasting it on something cursed.  If it is cursed then I read my scrolls to try for remove curse, and failing that I kill myself.

Once I'm a little ways into my run I won't test them without either a scroll of remove curse, or a stack of unidentified scrolls large enough that there's a good chance of remove curse being in there.

[Squeeealer]

If I find one really early on I put it on, and if it's not cursed I test to see if it's regeneration, otherwise I just name it "good" so that if I do find a scroll of identify, I can find out what that one is instead of wasting it on something cursed.  If it is cursed then I read my scrolls to try for remove curse, and failing that I kill myself.

Once I'm a little ways into my run I won't test them without either a scroll of remove curse, or a stack of unidentified scrolls large enough that there's a good chance of remove curse being in there.

What a cruel game. Just watched you get two early gain strengths, a wand of poly, and an incredible string of HP gains. I think you were at 71 max HP at exp level 8? But you had sketchy armor and your mace with maybe one enchantment? And then you got a Troll sammich. Was that wand called "teleport" a wand of teleport to or teleport away?

[Vanguard]

What a cruel game. Just watched you get two early gain strengths, a wand of poly, and an incredible string of HP gains. I think you were at 71 max HP at exp level 8? But you had sketchy armor and your mace with maybe one enchantment? And then you got a Troll sammich. Was that wand called "teleport" a wand of teleport to or teleport away?

Teleport away.  I totally had a way out of there, I just pressed the move button one time too many before I saw that second troll.  Oh well!

Those HP gains really were incredible, though.  I got 10 on both of my first two levels, and iirc I got an 8 on the third one.

[Vanguard]

I'm really gaining an appreciation for this game.

The basics of Rogue are much the same as any other roguelike.  Get the first hit, don't get surrounded, have an escape route, manage your lifesaving items, etc.  What makes Rogue unique is the way it combines a extreme unforgiving difficulty with a very limited player character.  The end result is that you have to make every minor optimization you possibly can.  Like, I don't put too much thought into exactly how I'll explore empty rooms in Sil or how to squeeze every bit of utility out of doorways in Brogue because those little optimizations don't really matter compared to the bigger things you can do.  But in Rogue you need every single advantage you can get.

It's an incredible scrub filter.  If you come into the game with the attitude that you deserve to win, or that obsessing over minor details is beneath you, or that your failures aren't your fault and it's just a matter of rolling the dice enough, then you are going to get crushed.  The improvements you need to make to succeed in Rogue are subtle and you won't see them if you aren't actively looking for them.  There was a similar thread to this one that I participated in some years ago, and from reading my own posts, I clearly had a scrub attitude then.

That's not to say that I think it's a perfect or that I wouldn't have made any changes if I was one of its developers, but appreciate it for what it is - a mercilessly brutal game that tests your perseverance and attitude just as much as your tactics.

I've made two recent modifications to my play.  First, I test-ID early rings to see if they're stealth rings.  Stealth is possibly even more useful than regeneration, and it's not too hard to test for.  Other rings are difficult to test for and generally not worth it.  Maybe I'll start checking for slow digestion as well, but that's it.  The other change is that from floor 9 onwards, I step into a doorway, and then back into the nearest bend in the hallway.  This takes a few more turns than waiting in the doorway, but it's more reliable in getting the drop on aquators and other nasties.

[Squeeealer]

I still remember how I felt when I first started playing. I questioned what the point of this was. I thought there was no strategy because all you could do engage or run with the enemy tailing you the entire way. The "strategy" of this game is so subtle, it's hard to even recognize. And it comes with absolutely no guarantees. Now that I've escaped the Dungeon of Doom once, I almost feel like it wasn't real. I went back and watched the TTYREC, and while I was proud that I made some good moves, I still feel like there was plenty of luck involved or that I was somehow "blessed" for that moment in time.

[LazyCat]

That's not to say that I think it's a perfect or that I wouldn't have made any changes...

I was asking before and I am still interested to hear what changes anyone think would benefit the game. So please, do tell, what would you change?


I think some use for useless/negative items would make the game more interesting. For example, potions of LSD, blindness and confusion could have confuse effect when thrown at monsters, while potion of poison could decrease monster's HP by point each turn. Also negative/useless wands. There could be "break a wand" action which could give its effect to the player, so breaking haste monster wand could haste you instead, while breaking invisibility wand could give you 'ring of stealth' effect.

Dark rooms, are they really a difficulty factor, or more of an annoyance factor? If there were no dark rooms at all, would you really be able to beat the game more often? Would the game be more enjoyable with less dark rooms, and is that worth making it slightly less difficult?


I already know the objection, people do not like the idea of making the game easier. But how much easier are we talking about, and does easier really mean "worse"? I think there is about only 1 in 100 dungeons with actual realistic chance to beat the game, even if you play every dungeon with the best logic and strategy. You will die 99% of the time simply because your sword does not hit hard or often enough. And so those changes I'm talking about will actually not make much difference, perhaps increase the chance of beating the game from 1% to 2%. But if they are going to make it more interesting, more enjoyable, even by 1%, then I think it's worth it, and easier game in that case would actually mean "better" game.

[LazyCat]

I went back and watched the TTYREC, and while I was proud that I made some good moves, I still feel like there was plenty of luck involved or that I was somehow "blessed" for that moment in time.

It was luck that you got the dungeon generated with a theoretical chance to be beaten, but that you actually made it through had to be due to your skill, or let's call it ability to not make (many) tactical/strategic mistakes. In other words, it's definitively something you can brag about. However, it does make me wonder if another 100 people played as many games as you did, how many times, if any, would they ascend.

This brings me to Brogue, and what I really like about it. However relatively hard, and always challenging, it seems with every dungeon there is still at least some theoretical chance to make it out with the amulet. I call that well-balanced game, and I think in that sense Rogue should be more Broguelike.

[Vanguard]

I was asking before and I am still interested to hear what changes anyone think would benefit the game. So please, do tell, what would you change?

The thing about improving Rogue is that the roguelike genre has gotten so much better over the years that there's no point.  You're never gonna tweak Rogue until it's more tactical than Sil or has as much cool stuff as Nethack or is as overall excellent as Brogue.  The reason for playing Rogue is because it's Rogue, you know?  Not because it's the best roguelike but because of its historical importance, or so you can say you've beaten such an infamous game.

With that said, I'd start by increasing the game's tendency to generate light rooms over dark rooms.  I'd still keep dark rooms and I wouldn't increase the player's default vision radius because those are very important parts of the game's personality and difficulty.  One extra turn is enough to turn tons of encounters in your favor.  Aquators in particular don't matter at all if you can see them coming.  Dark rooms are sort of interesting because they reduce your tactical options by a lot, so initially I thought that it'd be better if they were removed.  But the thing is, all the depth Rogue loses to dark rooms can be found in other roguelikes, and the depth Rogue gains from forcing you to engage with dark rooms is unique.  Anyway, I'd say a good change would be to make the rate of dark rooms increase at one half of the game's default rate.  By the time you reach the bottom everything would be dark, but you'd still have at least one light room in most lower floors as a good place to rest, retreat, test ID, etc.

I'd do something about the difficulty of finding an endgame-worthy weapon without increasing the power of endgame weapons.  Something like changing spears to 2d8 and longswords to 3d5 sounds about right.  It might also be worth changing maces to 2d6 and starting the player with a +0,+0 mace instead.  That way your starting position would be about as strong as it currently is, but it'd be worth identifying other maces in case you found a good one.

Oh yeah and I'd give elemental staves 100% accuracy because why not.