Author Topic: Professions, choosing them or not?  (Read 22755 times)

Endorya

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Professions, choosing them or not?
« on: June 30, 2014, 08:29:53 AM »
I was injecting yesterday a fine chunk of professions into the game's editor when I pondered if the player should in fact be forced choosing a profession during his character's creation phase. The real reason behind it is giving the player total freedom during his training process because choosing a profession means raising a certain group of skills where some of these skills could not be part of the player's interest in developing as priority or at all.

So what options I thought of? I thought of having the player choosing his character's age, if the character is too young he will not be able to choose a profession during the character's creation phase and the player itself would be the one to manually train his desirable set of skills in-game. (Please understand, training a skill in my game means spending weeks, months or even years of his life-spawn to effectively increase them, depending on the skill level and how much he wishes to advance.) If the player decides to start with an older character he can choose one or more professions right from the start, depending of how old the character is set to be.

So what do you think of this? Should this be an interesting starting decision or should the player simply choose what skills to start with right from the beginning, maybe discarding the professions option as a whole?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 08:40:11 AM by Endorya »
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Krice

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2014, 09:01:29 AM »
So what do you think of this? Should this be an interesting starting decision or should the player simply choose what skills to start with right from the beginning, maybe discarding the professions option as a whole?

I think you don't know what you are doing. The way things work in games is not always what the developers is thinking will happen. Some ideas just don't work at all or they don't create a good gameplay experience.

As always it's important to try stuff in action rather than spending time on "planning" features.

Endorya

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 09:13:22 AM »
I think you don't know what you are doing. The way things work in games is not always what the developers is thinking will happen. Some ideas just don't work at all or they don't create a good gameplay experience.

As always it's important to try stuff in action rather than spending time on "planning" features.
That's my whole point, before implementing them I was curious hearing you opinion so I would not end up wasting time. You do need to plan before implementing; acting first and thinking about it later seems is pointless. Planing, implementing and testing it is naturally the ideal way to go.

In the end I fail to grab any relevant data from your post. What will fail? What ideas don't work? What should be done instead?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 09:51:06 AM by Endorya »
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Krice

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 09:54:23 AM »
What will fail?

The idea vs. reality. It's sometimes hard to know what works before you try it in actual gameplay. Let's give an example of an idea. When I started programming Kaduria I had an idea to create more "realistic" role-playing system than D&D was in my opinion. I didn't understand then that there is nothing wrong with D&D per se, it's just a game system. I'm still after 20 years of development trying to figure out how the more realistic RPG system will actually work in the gameplay. It's still an idea that may require big changes to work in a way that makes playing possible in the first place.

I guess sometimes developers try too hard to be original, so they come up with kind of anti-ideas of what is currently available, but it's difficult to say if those ideas are any good.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 09:56:18 AM by Krice »

Endorya

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 11:04:23 AM »
The idea vs. reality. It's sometimes hard to know what works before you try it in actual gameplay. Let's give an example of an idea. When I started programming Kaduria I had an idea to create more "realistic" role-playing system than D&D was in my opinion. I didn't understand then that there is nothing wrong with D&D per se, it's just a game system. I'm still after 20 years of development trying to figure out how the more realistic RPG system will actually work in the gameplay. It's still an idea that may require big changes to work in a way that makes playing possible in the first place.

I guess sometimes developers try too hard to be original, so they come up with kind of anti-ideas of what is currently available, but it's difficult to say if those ideas are any good.
You have a solid point but if we don't try it we will never know. I'm definitely not developing my project in name of originality but attempting grouping all my favorite features, found throughout all games I've played during my whole life into one single experience. I would hardly feel excited developing something containing the same old mechanics leaving out most features that I enjoy. I've been called crazy before just by describing my project's full feature database and I've been positively criticized by doing the very same thing; unfortunately good and bad feedback won't turn itself into factual data until one can actually experience it.

Still, you haven't mentioned anything towards this thread's topic. Do you have anything to say about it? If nothing negative can be said about those options, I'll just assume there is nothing wrong with them. Maybe I failed to explain myself, in which case I would appreciate that someone would mention it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:16:40 AM by Endorya »
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reaver

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2014, 11:22:19 AM »
Friendly advice:
-K.I.S.S.
-Kitchen Sink design (aka feature creep) is bad
-Release early, release often
-Waterfall design is bad

I like fish. I like meat. I like eggs. I like porridge. I would NOT like a sandwich with salmon, octopus, beef, omelette and porridge.
Listen to what other people who have *released* stuff have to say.
But I guess you won't, because you seem fixed at advertising your overcomplicated systems, features and Stuff That Will Never Materialize (into bits) and will probably forever remain in spreadsheets.

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2014, 11:41:05 AM »
Friendly advice:
-K.I.S.S.
-Kitchen Sink design (aka feature creep) is bad
-Release early, release often
-Waterfall design is bad

I like fish. I like meat. I like eggs. I like porridge. I would NOT like a sandwich with salmon, octopus, beef, omelette and porridge.
Listen to what other people who have *released* stuff have to say.
But I guess you won't, because you seem fixed at advertising your overcomplicated systems, features and Stuff That Will Never Materialize (into bits) and will probably forever remain in spreadsheets.

Woooah, calm down friend. I find your post quite emotive and I guess I can understand why; just don't let you emotions cloud your sense of judgement.

Why shouldn't I listen to other person's opinions? It is not like I have nothing else to do apart advertising complex systems. You speak as if I have criticized / reject everyone's opinions towards the features I've presented which so far none have truly discussed them, including yourself. Discussing is actually exchanging ideas between a subject and not simply saying: "It won't work" or "You don't know what you are doing". If my complex systems bother you that much I simply advise you to ignore them, which in the end seems weird due to the nature of the forum itself and what it stands for.

Maybe if the other controversial thread didn't exist in first place you would have posted something different and with a different attitude but I guess more people with just act like you, which ends up proving my simulated opinion about people simply letting emotions destroying the logical behind their exposed thoughts.

With all this, I'm just glad I get to know people better; how their mind work and how they react under certain subjects / situations. You my friend, you seem to be quite inexperienced when dealing with controversial content, which was actually one of the reasons behind creating the controversial thread. Yes, you were all submitted to an experiment without your consent, which wouldn't have worked otherwise. Go ahead, crucify me.

What this posture of yours, I would simply deny you the opportunity of becoming a forum moderator.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:56:52 AM by Endorya »
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reaver

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2014, 11:56:24 AM »
My post is quite rational really, I said, friendly advice, been there done that seen that heard that, from myself, friends, coworkers etc. I think that you, by interpreting "emotional" in so many posts, you are quite emotional yourself even if you try to disassociate yourself from such a description. Anyway, I'm not a psychologist and that's *not* the point of my post, I'm just a fellow developer trying to share and receive advice and knowledge for rpg game dev in this forum.

If I ask a question : "Should my fighter start with 5 or 10 strength?" you understand it's kinda pointless, unless you try, play and see the difference. That's the point Krice is making I believe.
My grumble with this post, with some other of your posts (NOT the rape one - that's douchebaggy attention-whoring by your part, but is unrelated to this) is that they are of the sort of "I have this overcomplicated thing in theory, what do you think?" "My theoretical game supports 400k items and 580 crafting ingredients and ..." etc.

Read my post again and pretend that it has been sent by an unemotional robot observer that has seen a few such mega-projects-on-paper fail. You'll see that it's not emotional, and you might benefit a bit from it.

rust

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2014, 12:03:39 PM »
Woooah, calm down friend. I find your post quite emotive and I guess I can understand why; just don't let you emotions cloud your sense of judgement.

So you ignored the 4 pieces of advice reaver gave you and instead focused on how he supposedly doesn't like you because of your previous thread. If that's not getting emotional then I don't know what is.

Endorya

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2014, 12:24:15 PM »
Quote from: rot13
So you ignored the 4 pieces of advice reaver gave you and instead focused on how he supposedly doesn't like you because of your previous thread. If that's not getting emotional then I don't know what is.
What he basically said was me testing out those options. Well, I was actually hoping that those options could be discussed in more detail like: "If you let players choose those options this it could happen this or that". But even if no one can guess what will happen, I would just appreciate I've been told the following:

"Sorry, I really can't say what could happen. I guess you just need to try it out by yourself."

Then he further reveals me that my project and my threads do generally bother him, getting to his emotional side.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 12:46:52 PM by Endorya »
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Endorya

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2014, 12:31:11 PM »
My post is quite rational really, I said, friendly advice, been there done that seen that heard that, from myself, friends, coworkers etc. I think that you, by interpreting "emotional" in so many posts, you are quite emotional yourself even if you try to disassociate yourself from such a description. Anyway, I'm not a psychologist and that's *not* the point of my post, I'm just a fellow developer trying to share and receive advice and knowledge for rpg game dev in this forum.
Never said anything about not being emotional, I do get emotional a lot. My real point about was not about giving emotional answers, but making decisions out of an emotional state. I can say the same logical thing with emotion and without it:

"Man you post simply sucked" - Being emotive.
"I don't think your post added anything usefull" - Saying the same thing without a nasty attitude.

The above example tells exactly the same thing through different emotional states, which is not clouding judgment.

Quote from: reaver
If I ask a question : "Should my fighter start with 5 or 10 strength?" you understand it's kinda pointless, unless you try, play and see the difference. That's the point Krice is making I believe.
Unfortunately my post was not about choosing the right number but discussing a mechanics option. I did it because you guys do have created stuff before me, I guess, so I was hoping a more in depth answer, like usually happen in all other threads, like in my previous complicated threads. Sorry if I hoped for something that wasn't possible to achieve. I should have guessed that. Discussing if the player could pick up professions during the character creating phase is not really an overly complex feature but I guess that for you, everything I ask about is simply too complex.

Quote from: reaver
My grumble with this post, with some other of your posts (NOT the rape one - that's douchebaggy attention-whoring by your part, but is unrelated to this) is that they are of the sort of "I have this overcomplicated thing in theory, what do you think?" "My theoretical game supports 400k items and 580 crafting ingredients and ..." etc.
I simply suggest that you avoid my future posts containing complex stuff. And you needed to make sure you would call me again a douchbag, which just proves my point about you being emotive (I hope you have witness this rot13).

Quote from: reaver
Read my post again and pretend that it has been sent by an unemotional robot observer that has seen a few such mega-projects-on-paper fail. You'll see that it's not emotional, and you might benefit a bit from it.
Unfortunately I can't, as you just reassured me, you are emotive. And I'm really sorry if my already-failed-mega-projects-on-paper bother you that much. Again, ignore them, this is the most logical thing to do.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 12:54:17 PM by Endorya »
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rust

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2014, 01:01:06 PM »
Unfortunately my post was not about choosing the right number but discussing a mechanics option. I did it because you guys do have created stuff before me, I guess, so I was hoping a more in depth answer, like usually happen in all other threads. Sorry If I hoped for something that wasn't possible to achieve.

I think you don't get what Krice and reaver said. Their point is that first you should set some goals and only then think about mechanics that will fulfill these goals.

Let's say you want three classes: tank, ranger and spellcaster. Going from there you think about skills for each class: sword parry, shield block, shield charge for tank; multishot, burning arrow and bear traps for ranger; various spells for spellcaster. What you're doing is basically thinking about skills first, then hoping something fun emerges out of this clusterfuck. It could work if it was as simple as in my example, but having tens or hundreds of skills (or items, or whatever) without thinking how will they be used is downright stupid.

From what I observed in all these threads, your problem is that you don't know what will your game be like. It seems you want to give players complete freedom of choice (even the "choice" to play without permadeath, as we discussed earlier) but aside from that there's nothing that makes your project stand out in any way.

I simply suggest that you avoid my future posts containing complex stuff.

Kindly telling someone "fuck off, I don't want you in my threads" isn't going to solve any of your problems.

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2014, 01:20:52 PM »
Unfortunately my post was not about choosing the right number but discussing a mechanics option. I did it because you guys do have created stuff before me, I guess, so I was hoping a more in depth answer, like usually happen in all other threads. Sorry If I hoped for something that wasn't possible to achieve.

Quote from: rot13
I think you don't get what Krice and reaver said. Their point is that first you should set some goals and only then think about mechanics that will fulfill these goals.
Why do you people keep saying I don't know what I'm doing. It feels like everyone simply thinks that I started this project yesterday and that everything is still on paper. It feels like everyone just want it to fail because it is a complex project no one is allowed to do it alone. I'm definitely start holding myself from revealing any further information about it. It seems that it bothers everyone around here.

I'm truly curious about what AgingMinotaur has to say about this as I value his opinion like no one else. If he really agrees with all that you say to be true, well than I will simply leave this forum, sparing you the trouble of reading yet again more about my deeply complex and showoff threads, as reaven seems to imply. I put this in the hands of AgingMinotaur. I think everyone will benefct from this, you all cease to read my crap and I stop wasting time posting it. Maybe this is a good thing. I think that the moral controversial thread was the best thing I could have possibly done, I really starting to have a deep look into your minds.

Quote from: rot13
Let's say you want three classes: tank, ranger and spellcaster. Going from there you think about skills for each class: sword parry, shield block, shield charge for tank; multishot, burning arrow and bear traps for ranger; various spells for spellcaster. What you're doing is basically thinking about skills first, then hoping something fun emerges out of this clusterfuck. It could work if it was as simple as in my example, but having tens or hundreds of skills (or items, or whatever) without thinking how will they be used is downright stupid.
Completely wrong, I know what skills I have and know how they will play in the game but even if I didn't know it has nothing to do with this thread's title.

Quote from: rot13
From what I observed in all these threads, your problem is that you don't know what will your game be like. It seems you want to give players complete freedom of choice (even the "choice" to play without permadeath, as we discussed earlier) but aside from that there's nothing that makes your project stand out in any way.

I guess it is a problem of mine and no one else's. I would appreciate everyone's guidance but it seems that people just took my recent discussion as an excuse to tell me what they think about my project, which is fine with me.

I simply suggest that you avoid my future posts containing complex stuff.

Quote from: rot13
Kindly telling someone "fuck off, I don't want you in my threads" isn't going to solve any of your problems.
I don't have any problem with having him on my threads. On the other hand reaver seem to have a problem with threads. I didn't went that hostile as you are kind of implying. I would appreciate you wouldn't distort my intentions.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 01:23:45 PM by Endorya »
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rust

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2014, 01:52:38 PM »
Once again you're getting emotional. This time you paint yourself as a victim by saying that those evil forum users don't want you to finish your magnificent game.

Completely wrong, I know what skills I have and know how they will play in the game but even if I didn't know it has nothing to do with this thread's title.

That was just an example and your reply proves that you really don't get it.

Read your first post again and ask yourself a following question: how do I want players to start my game? Not from the perspective of mechanics, but gameplay. Do you want to give them freedom of choice? If so, give them this opportunity, carefully balancing the professions so one of them isn't more profitable/easier than others. Do you want them to more or less follow the route they chose at the start, with all its benefits and drawbacks? You can then encourage players to stay on it by giving quests, crafting recipes etc. unique to their chosen profession and hold them back with penalties to other professions.

reaver

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Re: Professions, choosing them or not?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2014, 02:10:16 PM »
I just found this gem while looking for something concrete about the project: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128206.0

Ok, I get it now. The project is a feature creeper's wet dream: Data entry in an editor of whatever feature one thinks is fun. A big funnel where you put in data (apparently "80% done TM" ), magic happens and a fun, interesting, challenging, roguelike game comes out, without even having to code! Oh boy. Reminds myself daydreaming like that when I was 14, furiously writing about game features in notebooks (or notepad) under the summer sun.

Good luck, I won't bother you anymore with my "bad karma" and my emotionally-based fear of complexity.