Author Topic: My two cents about Permadeath  (Read 125341 times)

LazyCat

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #105 on: April 06, 2014, 10:22:51 AM »
It's not repetitive, tedious or annoying if you start a brand new game with a brand new world every time you die. It is, though, when you load the game for the tenth time just to find yourself in the same place, with the same enemies around.
And if someone wants a game to hold them by their hand and give them lots of fun they don't have to work for, then there are a lot of other genres so they'll surely find something suitable.

You can always not save and not continue, why do you mind if there was an option to do so?

rust

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #106 on: April 06, 2014, 10:38:21 AM »
You can always not save and not continue, why do you mind if there was an option to do so?

You can save scum already, but that's hardly the way roguelikes are meant to be played.

reaver

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #107 on: April 06, 2014, 11:39:17 AM »
I wouldn't say that Menzoberranzan or Eye of the Beholder are that much 'other genres'

Wasn't aware about the save system of those two, I had in mind platformers and the like, in which such saving mechanisms were more common

Krice

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #108 on: April 06, 2014, 12:15:47 PM »
When people ask why roguelikes must have permadeath it's like asking why platformers has to have platforms.

Endorya

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #109 on: April 06, 2014, 12:22:12 PM »
You can save scum already, but that's hardly the way roguelikes are meant to be played.

The way roguelikes are meant to be played (or any other game) is defined by the author himself. The author may offer you, the player, only one or several ways you can choose to play his game, including choosing classes, adjustable the game's difficulty level and deciding whether or not the player can save his progress. If you don't like to save your progress then by all means don't save it but for fracks sake let those who favor it doing so. Will this harm permadeath fans in which way? But even though the author decided his game should be played in a certain way, that doesn't mean you can't save scum or slap your genitals against the keyboard out of happiness when defeating a strong mob.

@Everyone
Yeah, the original Rogue game from 1980 didn't allow saving, was made entirely in ASCII and had an interface that was everything but user friendly. What does this means? Does it mean that all roguelikes made 30 years later need to have a non-optinal permadeath, being displayed in ASCII while at the same time being administrated in horrendous and non-practical interfaces without mouse support?

I understand that removing permadeath entirely would affect part of what a roguelike stands for, but being against not making it optional completely baffles me. There is simply no plausible excuse you or Obama can throw at me that will make me think about it. Since when having choices is a bad thing? "Endorya because that's how roguelikes shou...". Oh please give me a frakking break and think out of the box for once.

And don't give me the crap that its hard work implementing a saving feature due to balancing issues. Take ADOM as an example, all it would take to implement a saving feature in ADOM (which is already there for saving the player's progression when quitting the game) would be disabling the SINGLE LINE of code that deletes the save point whenever the player dies.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 05:29:59 PM by Endorya »
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Endorya

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #110 on: April 06, 2014, 12:29:44 PM »
When people ask why roguelikes must have permadeath it's like asking why platformers has to have platforms.

Your analogy would have made sense if a roguelike was instead called permadeather.
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reaver

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #111 on: April 06, 2014, 12:35:44 PM »
For some reason the whole discussion reminds me of the respec potion discussion in Torchlight 2 (for those who don't know, if you should be able to "legally" change skills within the game if you don't like them, paying some cost, or if you need to roll a new character if you don't like your skills).

Here, on one side are the elitists that don't like their niche to be tinkered with, and bragging rights that come from endless hours of playing  are the reason to keep roguelikes "pure", with permadeath, as if other people can beat the game legally, their accomplishments won't matter as much anymore.

On the other side you have people that want to play and enjoy this genre in a more casual way (aka without spending tens or hundreds of hours to master the game).

Both sides have valid points, so it's up to the developer in the end to define the target intended audience by setting up the gameplay appropriately. Obviously each audience wants to skew the developer opinion their way, and that's how these multi-page discussions will never ever resolve :D

Endorya

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #112 on: April 06, 2014, 12:43:09 PM »
Both sides have valid points, so it's up to the developer in the end to define the target intended audience by setting up the gameplay appropriately. Obviously each audience wants to skew the developer opinion their way, and that's how these multi-page discussions will never ever resolve :D

And then you have authors that decide to include both options ending completely the needing to discuss such issue. But then of course, the 'purists' will still complain about it even though they have the option to play it in hardcore mode.
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reaver

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2014, 12:53:09 PM »
But the purists have lost by the option to include arbitrary saves. I'm no purist myself (in video games), but I understand that position. Their accomplishment  of finishing the game is reduced if other people finish it more easily. That's why I bet if you ask permadeath people if "casual, easy, normal, hard" modes WITH permadeath would be ok for them, you'd still get a NO for an answer. The sense of accomplishment is globally diminished.

I liked the idea of Diablo's hardcore mode AND separate ladder. Bragging rights and special treatment, I don't care about that I still enjoyed the game in softcore mode massively. I bet they enjoyed their game too, without mingling with mere softcore mortals. Good for them, good for me, thanks to the developer.

Endorya

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2014, 12:58:25 PM »
But the purists have lost by the option to include arbitrary saves. I'm no purist myself (in video games), but I understand that position. Their accomplishment  of finishing the game is reduced if other people finish it more easily. That's why I bet if you ask permadeath people if "casual, easy, normal, hard" modes WITH permadeath would be ok for them, you'd still get a NO for an answer. The sense of accomplishment is globally diminished.

So what you are saying is that they want to be viewed as special people who achieved something Grand. I don't know about you but for me the sense of accomplishment of crossing the Atlantic alone in a small boat is incredibly impressive, even knowing that airplanes can cross it absurdly more easily. I completely fail to see this position of theirs in finishing the game in hardcore mode when the common lot could only do in softcore mode. Why would their achievement feel less impressive?

LOL! I'm sorry, I just honestly laughed incredibly loud. I even spook my dog that was sleeping next to me.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 01:06:55 PM by Endorya »
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reaver

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #115 on: April 06, 2014, 01:06:36 PM »
If you are an explorer by trade, and one of the few, and you have your own little club of special explorer people where you regale your stories, you would become depressed if suddenly everybody could go where you go, even if using much easier means of transport. And that sucks and is understandable for them. But it's awesome for the rest to be granted such new opportunities.

But I might be pulling it out of my ass, it would be nice to get an honest opinion by them, besides "roguelikes should be that way because they have always been that way".

Ok, so I don't want to play roguelikes, I want top-down tile-based turn-based RPGs instead, typically in a high-fantasy setting, with procedural dungeons and high strategic depth without permadeath as the only option. Could we make more of those please? I don't think we have enough of those, and I think there is an audience.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 01:15:02 PM by reaver »

Endorya

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2014, 01:14:34 PM »
If you are an explorer by trade, and one of the few, and you have your own little club of special explorer people where you regale your stories, you would become depressed if suddenly everybody could go where you go, even if using much easier means of transport. And that sucks and is understandable for them. But it's awesome for the rest to be granted such new opportunities.

But I might be pulling it out of my ass, it would be nice to get an honest opinion by them, besides "roguelikes should be that way because they have always been that way".

I fully understand what you mean but every time I think about it, I can' help it, I simply start to laugh  ::).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 01:17:34 PM by Endorya »
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Endorya

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #117 on: April 06, 2014, 01:17:04 PM »
Ok, so I don't want to play roguelikes, I want top-down tile-based turn-based RPGs instead, typically in a high-fantasy setting, with procedural dungeons and high strategic depth without permadeath as the only option. Could we make more of those please? I don't think we have enough of those, and I think there is an audience.

That's exactly what I'm doing. In fact combat will be similar to Fallout with action points and all. And yeah, it's party based instead single character.

[EDIT]
I'll post some shots in future as I need people to give me some feedback, mainly towards the anatomy system I'm developing which will be quite complex, like each creature having a full anatomy system with internal organs, bones, flesh etc and having each body part compromising a certain creature's faculty when damaged, like having the legs wounded (or cut off) that will severely increase the cost of movement.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 01:25:45 PM by Endorya »
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LazyCat

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #118 on: April 06, 2014, 10:46:34 PM »
When people ask why roguelikes must have permadeath it's like asking why platformers has to have platforms.

It is not genre defining classification. It's general property like user interface, complexity or game difficulty.

It is as unreasonable as suggesting that all platformers must have 3 lives because first platformer had 3 lives.

It is as unreasonable as suggesting that horror movie is not horror if it has a sequel because first horror didn't.


Roguelike is bogus genre. It is ambiguous, it does not qualify to classify. It's a slang coined by some drunk 14 year old nerd on LSD, just unnecessary semantic nonsense. Correct and meaningful classification for roguelikes is "role playing game", that describes what actually matters. Type of graphics, number of lives, turn based or real time are general properties and sub-classifications on their own.

Vanguard

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Re: My two cents about Permadeath
« Reply #119 on: April 06, 2014, 11:10:12 PM »
No, saving does not change anything about game. It only allows you to learn faster.

What part do you disagree with?

Clearing one part of a game at a time with infinite mistakes is vastly easier than clearing an entire game in one go with no mistakes.

But don't take my word for it, test it yourself.  Go get an emulator and an infamously tough game like Ghosts 'n Goblins or DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou.  Try to 1 credit clear the game while using save states.  You'll probably be able to do it in one or two sittings.  Next try to 1cc the game without save states.  You won't be able to do it.  It's more than just a matter of taking enough time.  Your skill level is not high enough and you won't get anywhere until you improve.

Save abuse really is a useful tool for learning how to play a game quickly, but to say it doesn't reduce difficulty is astonishingly wrong.