My two cents about Permadeath

[Zireael]

My 2c:  depends on how one enjoys the game. Allow the option, probably at the start of the game. Easy, normal, hard. Hardcore mode of Diablo/Torchlight/Tales of Maj' Eyal. It's not rocket science. Do vendors sell balls saying "Only play football with this product"? Why would you handicap the product? So that elitists/zealots can cheer? Define the game in the scope of the session ("I'm gonna play normal difficulty - hardcore mode", or "I'm gonna play basketball") and don't change the rules as you see fit midway through.

That's a good solution.

[rust]

I rather replay my death 10x times from a saved point at level 20 than restarting my char 10x times at level 1, replicating the skill developing, collecting and selling early equipment also 10x times. My point about unlimited scenarios comes exactly to this as you should not feel scared for finishing the game in much less time or having it feel less challenging due to controlled saved games as the key lies with the right amount of difficulty; challenge is not something exclusive to permadeath. Each time you start over you will play a new and different game promoting a unique experience, as long as the game features procedural algorithms naturally. You would probably try a different class or race or investing in a different skill tree once you've finished the game.

It comes to personal preferences here. I'd rather replay everything from scratch ten times, because every time I experience a completely new world with new challenges. That's because continuous saving and reloading make the game less challenging - in a game with permadeath, if you die to a particular monster, next time you have to develop either a better character or an effective strategy to defeat it, while in a game with saving/reloading you can do the same things as in a permadeath game, but you also can try the same strategy with the same character over and over and you might eventually make it through thanks to luck. Not to mention that after reloading the world is the same, which, as others pointed out, pretty much defeats the purpose of procedural generation.
You also make the assumption that a game is something to complete. There's nothing wrong with that, but it seems to imply that once you won it, it's over. Of course this is not the case if the game features procedural generation, but it doesn't change the fact that if someone plays only to win, then they're not going to play the game again, even though it'll be set in a new world the next time.

[Etinarg]

My personal preference is to play without permadeath. I feel frustrated if my character dies, and I want to play for fun and the illusion of being successful, not for feeling frustrated.

Admitted, there are points when save/reload won't help either, because the character is titally screwed, but the tolerance is higher.

If I have the choice I play without permadeath in a setting that has a "fair" balance between challenge and reward (usually called "easy") and I make my own projects without permadeath by default.

I know other will call this lame, but it is my way to have joy in playing a game. Life is hard enough, and has enough challenges, I don't need to play difficult games in my free time, rather something to relax and spin down.

[Eben]

My personal preference is to play without permadeath. I feel frustrated if my character dies, and I want to play for fun and the illusion of being successful, not for feeling frustrated.

Admitted, there are points when save/reload won't help either, because the character is titally screwed, but the tolerance is higher.

If I have the choice I play without permadeath in a setting that has a "fair" balance between challenge and reward (usually called "easy") and I make my own projects without permadeath by default.

I know other will call this lame, but it is my way to have joy in playing a game. Life is hard enough, and has enough challenges, I don't need to play difficult games in my free time, rather something to relax and spin down.

This, exactly. You are talking about non-roguelike RPGs here. Or even scripted story games like Heavy Rain. Those are great games and genres, but thinking that roguelikes are suffering because they're roguelikes is just odd. It's like saying you prefer a vehicle to have four wheels and so motorcycles aren't as good of vehicles as they could be.

Once again, I suggest you play some of the really amazing scripted story games, especially the ones by Bioware, based on your stated preferences. Even AAA FPS games offer exactly what you say you want. (This is not meant as a demeaning comment, I personally love playing AAA FPS games and such.)

[Endorya]

It comes to personal preferences here. I'd rather replay everything from scratch ten times, because every time I experience a completely new world with new challenges. That's because continuous saving and reloading make the game less challenging - in a game with permadeath, if you die to a particular monster, next time you have to develop either a better character or an effective strategy to defeat it, while in a game with saving/reloading you can do the same things as in a permadeath game, but you also can try the same strategy with the same character over and over and you might eventually make it through thanks to luck. Not to mention that after reloading the world is the same, which, as others pointed out, pretty much defeats the purpose of procedural generation.
You also make the assumption that a game is something to complete. There's nothing wrong with that, but it seems to imply that once you won it, it's over. Of course this is not the case if the game features procedural generation, but it doesn't change the fact that if someone plays only to win, then they're not going to play the game again, even though it'll be set in a new world the next time.

This, exactly. You are talking about non-roguelike RPGs here. Or even scripted story games like Heavy Rain. Those are great games and genres, but thinking that roguelikes are suffering because they're roguelikes is just odd. It's like saying you prefer a vehicle to have four wheels and so motorcycles aren't as good of vehicles as they could be.

Once again, I suggest you play some of the really amazing scripted story games, especially the ones by Bioware, based on your stated preferences. Even AAA FPS games offer exactly what you say you want. (This is not meant as a demeaning comment, I personally love playing AAA FPS games and such.)

@Everyone
Yap, it comes down to personal preferences. I could go one and grab everyone's text and counter argument it with my own statements but there is not point presenting arguments against personal preferences. It's like me trying to convince all of you that you should like blonds instead brunettes. It's pointless. It really doesn't mean a thing when you try to tell me that an athletic body of a blond and its golden hair and blue eyes is better for me when I prefer curvy brunettes with black hair and black eyes. That's why I said my opinion was not open for discussion. The best approach to this issue was already stated here, which would satisfy everyone's demands. It presents itself as letting the player choosing his own playing style i.e. with or without permadeath at the beginning of the game. The whole issue is indeed so easy to solve.

@Etinarg
You hit the Jackpot as I share your view at 100%. Permadeath for me equals frustration instead fun. I rather go to work and feel useful than spending countless hours having my progression being reset through unfortunate events.

[Eben]

I'm confused. You seem to be claiming it's personal preference and then suggesting that all brunettes should dye their hair blond. That's not just personal preference, you're trying to change what people do in order to turn what they've done into what you wanted.

[chooseusername]

The best approach to this issue was already stated here, which would satisfy everyone's demands. It presents itself as letting the player choosing his own playing style i.e. with or without permadeath at the beginning of the game. The whole issue is indeed so easy to solve.

The best approach for who?  It's only easy if you do not value the developer's time, energy and personal interests - if the respective part of the game is something they would otherwise do differently from the way you want.

[awake]

I wouldn't savescumm in a roguelike any more than I'd delete my save file after dying in Fallout or whatever. I don't see the appeal in either one. You could glue some half-assed permadeath "hardcore" mode onto just about any game I guess, but it seems pointless if its just an afterthought.

[Endorya]

I'm confused. You seem to be claiming it's personal preference and then suggesting that all brunettes should dye their hair blond. That's not just personal preference, you're trying to change what people do in order to turn what they've done into what you wanted.

WHAT?! Where did I say that? Ok, let me rephrase it:

It really doesn't mean a thing when you try to tell me that an athletic body of a blond and its golden hair and blue eyes is better for me when I prefer curvy brunettes with black hair and black eyes.

[Eben]

I'm confused. You seem to be claiming it's personal preference and then suggesting that all brunettes should dye their hair blond. That's not just personal preference, you're trying to change what people do in order to turn what they've done into what you wanted.

WHAT?! Where did I say that? Ok, let me rephrase it:

It really doesn't mean a thing when you try to tell me that an athletic body of a blond and its golden hair and blue eyes is better for me when I prefer curvy brunettes with black hair and black eyes.

Except that you're suggesting that roguelike devs not use permadeath, which in the analogy means you're suggesting that blonds become brunettes to meet your preference, rather than you just going after brunettes in the first place. (I did in fact have the hair color switch backwards there, sorry)

[Endorya]

The best approach for who?

The best approach for those who play the game, those who enjoy permadeath and those who want to save their progress. Sorry if that was rhetorical.

It's only easy if you do not value the developer's time, energy and personal interests - if the respective part of the game is something they would otherwise do differently from the way you want.

Author's developing time, energy, personal interests VS having permadeath and saving progress. Sorry, you lost me here.

[Quendus]

It's only easy if you do not value the developer's time, energy and personal interests - if the respective part of the game is something they would otherwise do differently from the way you want.

Author's developing time, energy, personal interests VS having permadeath and saving progress. Sorry, you lost me here.

If it would consume the developer's time and energy to allow a player to save their progress, and the developer has no personal interest in developing a game where that is possible, or if being able to circumvent permadeath would conflict with the developer's vision of gameplay, then there's little reason for the developer to do so.

[kniiight]

So, you're saying that you don't like roguelikes?

[Endorya]

I'm confused. You seem to be claiming it's personal preference and then suggesting that all brunettes should dye their hair blond. That's not just personal preference, you're trying to change what people do in order to turn what they've done into what you wanted.

WHAT?! Where did I say that? Ok, let me rephrase it:

It really doesn't mean a thing when you try to tell me that an athletic body of a blond and its golden hair and blue eyes is better for me when I prefer curvy brunettes with black hair and black eyes.

Except that you're suggesting that roguelike devs not use permadeath, which in the analogy means you're suggesting that blonds become brunettes to meet your preference, rather than you just going after brunettes in the first place. (I did in fact have the hair color switch backwards there, sorry)

I'm just saying that no one can change the personal preferences of another person simply by giving away their opinion about the opposite things that they enjoy. Let me try to give another example:

I say: "Dude! Ramstein is awesome!"
You say: "Meh, they kinda suck. Their guitar riffs lack originality and they have the worst language in the world!"
I say: "Actually they have strong riffs and fine melodies and they provide awesome shows during live performances."
You say: "Well, the lead singer does look spooky, that alone must provide a good show."

After this dialog nothing will change. You will still hate Ramstein and I will still enjoy it. This is a common problem with people nowadays, when someone likes something and if the other person who hates it knows about it, the one who hates will just have to say something about it! Even knowing that he cannot simply change the personal preferences of another person by giving away his opinion.

@Everyone
So having someone explaining himself why he enjoys permadeath after I've stated I don't like permadeath, won't change a thing. It won't change the way I feel about it. I just created this thread to demonstrate that are players who enjoy the roguelike concept, except for its permadeath feature. Take it as you must. Don't give a crap about it or give a crap about it, its all up to you. The game I'm developing will have permadeath and saving progress features, because this will "capture" more audience. If this is too much for you then don't implement it. If this collides with your personal interests then don't do it.

[Endorya]

Ok I had enough with this thread. I think I've explained myself really good and its time for me to leave, as I'm beginning to repeat myself. I consider this thread closed. Don't bother posting as I'm not coming here again.

Take care guys. Thanks for your feedback, I know this is a delicate topic and I hope I did not offended anyone by sharing my views about this subject.