Golden Krone Hotel

[jere]

Hmmmm. Detect shows you all enemies on the explored areas of the map in addition to a separate icon on main display for nearby enemies. One tip is that vampires will stick to the darkest areas and humans will gather around brightly lit areas. If you were to take away all the torches, both groups would wander around aimlessly. In that way, you can actually use torches to push mobs around. Still think this needs a better solution, but it'll require some thought. Maybe the best thing is show the last place you saw a monster, but the way I would implement it might still show you monsters that are no longer living because they moved from that spot you saw them at that time around.

Higher levels spells definitely have higher hunger costs, since that's the only downside associated with spells. I am totally shocked that a level 2 spell would take you all the way past the warnings though. You hit the Starving status (in bright red) well before that, but the warning level should probably be higher.

I've considered showing a warning about transformations, but I in fact like the dangerous situations that arise out of an unexpected switch. The Human status does gradually fade though and you can preemptively take a soul elixir if you want to stave off vampirism for longer.

Oh yea, silver is one of the best spells. Since it's only useful against a subset of monsters, I had to make it pretty powerful to seem worthwhile. Similarly, blast is one of the best spells and most people think it is useless.

[Z]

So I have won! And killed Fane, too.

The Solomonars feel extremely unsatisfying. I think they are one of the few creatures which are neither threats nor interesting at the time when they appear (the rat soldier is boring but OK, you could also think about making Moroi more interesting).

There is something wrong with the Princess. Apparently she casts her Heal spell when there is a wounded man nearby, but she heals herself. And you say she is clever? I have turned off all the lights in the Library, then used is as a free blood donor station (whenever the vampire got dangerously wounded, she went to the library to get some blood safely, trying not to kill anyone), and was surprised that her spells seemed so weak. Then, I had to finally kill the Princess, and was surprised that I am unable to kill her due to her healing. But she stopped spellcasting once the nearby guy healed naturally.

The fairy was one of the first monsters I met in the pharmacy. I did not know it was her.

I have read the formulae for spellcasting (after winning), apparently the hunger cost is 1+2*level, and the effectivity of the most spells is proportional to 1+level. So higher level spells are less effective per hunger cost. I think this is not right.

After turning off the lights in the Library, I have been using the human form only for the vampire bosses. Sometimes there is not enough food (or not enough soul elixirs) anyway to use the human form much.

I have been investing in Dexterity only. It is of universal use (better defense, attack faster, cast spells faster, run away from the powerful enemies, drink blood before it disappears, remain in the human form longer, creatures have less time to regenerate), while strength is good only for attacking, and intelligence is useful for humans only (maybe you could consider allowing the fourth spell for highly intelligent characters?). I think it is better to outrun Brawlers (and finally even Nobles) as a human than to risk fights.

Thanks again for the very nice game!

[jere]

No, thank you Z! Your detailed feedback here is invaluable.

[jere]

One last update before this year's 7drl.

v1.6 or should I say.... v1.Z? 

I found a bug where humans wouldn't cast one of their main spells, Firestorm, in the dark even though the game treats adjacent monsters as if they can see you. I've also given Solomnari the ability to use GLOW, which is even more terrifying than the Hunters. You can't outrun it; the glow sticks to you! I think Solomnari should be sufficiently difficult/interesting with these changes.

I think I've fixed all the Princess bugs. I was a bit disturbed by your use of the Library as a blood bank. Very clever, but breaks the game a bit. I changed it so the torches always relight when you enter the Library and the Princess should be a little tougher.

Finally, there is the issue of stats. I don't think I'll ever fix this completely, but here goes. The defense bonus has been taken away from DEX and given to STR, so now STR should be really appealing: you get both offense and defense. Spell hunger has been increased, especially at higher levels, but you can use high INT to counteract it.

Because people get attached to one particular stat, I figured why not take advantage of it? So I added a class system. All it really is is an option to limit which stat you'll increase. You get a little starting item/spell, but it's not too important. Hopefully this increases the replayability.

A few things I didn't change... the Moroi aren't really hard, but the darkness they produce has some interesting emergent effects. You can use it to hide from other monsters. Conversely, it will attract Balaurs to you. Sometimes monsters will hide from you next the Moroi. As for the Rat Soldier, yea there's nothing special about it, but aren't I allowed one simple monster (seems like DCSS has few dozen)? Plus it's a great source of blood for vampires.

Thanks again for the feedback.

The game has changed so much since the last LP. I hope someone stumbles upon it again.

[Samildanach]

The game has changed so much since the last LP. I hope someone stumbles upon it again.

I did a video review of an earlier version. I might do a 'return to Golden Krone Hotel' now it's been altered so much.

[jere]

Yes, I recall. That would be really awesome if you did another!!!!

It should be a lot harder this time around. I've made an effort to make the game mechanics more transparent, but if you do happen to play it please let me know if you have questions. The only person that I know that has played it lately is Z and I don't know anyone who has played it since this last balancing update.

By the way, I just now fixed a couple more bugs. One of them was quite annoying; if a vampire had 2 moves, it could sometimes dodge beams of sunlight. No more.

[jere]

Real talk, people. I read Darren's post today about Steam and it has made me wonder....

Would anyone here actually buy GKH if it were on Steam for, say, $1-$3? Or I'll hedge a little bit and say: would you buy the game if you had never played it but knew what it contained?

Is there something the game fundamentally lacks or bothers you so much it'd be a dealbreaker? In many ways, the design is intentionally very simple (e.g. autopickup, single number for your sword). I know it lacks the complexity of other RLs, but I figure some people might prefer the simplicity. On the hand, I think the mechanics and aesthetics are pretty solid. And there's enough content for many hours of gameplay: it takes me about 1.5 hours to beat and there are 20 monsters, 14 floors, 9 spells, etc. Of course, I'd probably expand the game with new monsters, spells, and areas, especially something that allowed an extended, optional endgame.

Honest feedback is appreciated.

[akeley]

I`ll go in blind and buy nearly any old thing up to 5$ as long as it`s turn based, calls itself a  roguelike and isn`t just a sketch. Above that level I actually start doing some research and ponder if it`s "worth it" (whatever that means) and if I might actually enjoy it.

I realize that is probably a deeply flawed approach and sometimes I wonder if buying weak RLs isn`t actually hurting the cause - but here I am just answering your question.

I (and few other people I suppose) also buy only DRM-Free games. This can be done through Humble, Desura, itch.io, direct form your website and a few other methods, so please consider this avenue if you decide on selling. 

[jere]

Thanks for your input. According to Darren:

You can opt out of DRM on Steam (many indie games I play do just that), and you can still just have a link on your desktop. Some people like to demonise Steam, but from a developer perspective it's only as evil as you want it to be.

Anyway, if you want to play it right now for free, it's out there in a complete form.

Getting a game on Steam would be a pretty cool personal achievement (even if that means less than it used to) and the idea of bringing lots of new players and feedback is very enticing. Itch.io is a great platform, but I don't know how well it works for discovery. I put an early version of GKH on there last year and it's gotten fewer than 150 views in that time.

I guess I'll probably bite the bullet and end up doing this. It's only $100 and that goes to charity. There's just a lot of insecurity I've got to deal with here.

[Vanguard]

My opinion is that Golden Krone Hotel is a real solid 7drl but isn't good enough to justify a commercial release.  More monsters and items are nice but GKH's real problem is that it's too shallow.  If you can fix that then go for it.

I wonder if buying weak RLs isn`t actually hurting the cause

It is.  Indie developers are cranking out tons of shovelware roguelikes and pseudo-roguelikes these days because it's easy money.  It tarnishes the public perception of what a roguelike is and, more importantly, it makes it more difficult for quality developers to stand out.

[reaver]

If you plan to release, besides extra depth you also need more polish. And definitely some tutorial or overlay hints or something. If I want to check a game out to see if I like it for 1 hour, I don't want to be learning the rules and game UI quirks the hard way for 45'.

Re polish, an example: I tried to play the game a few days ago on a browser. I start the game and saw my character, in a 3x3 visible grid, and a vertical visible corridor. In my big, big screen, I did not notice the minimap. Pressing 'up' and 'down' had no effect besides some tiles changing and some monster appearing. You can call me dumb, but with the way I've been used to 'fog of war' which this game lacks, I *did not* realize that I was moving, and it confused me a *lot*.

[Samildanach]

I start the game and saw my character, in a 3x3 visible grid, and a vertical visible corridor. In my big, big screen, I did not notice the minimap. Pressing 'up' and 'down' had no effect besides some tiles changing and some monster appearing. You can call me dumb, but with the way I've been used to 'fog of war' which this game lacks, I *did not* realize that I was moving, and it confused me a *lot*.

Ah yes, that. Even now, after having played the game multiple times, that throws me if I haven't played it for a while. More than once I've thought the game had frozen because you almost can't discern any movement in that first corridor. I consider that a minor niggle more than a game-ruining issue, but I imagine if I was coming to it for the first time with a view to spending money on it, "has this frozen on the first screen of the first play?" wouldn't be a great first impression.

[jere]

If you plan to release, besides extra depth you also need more polish. And definitely some tutorial or overlay hints or something. If I want to check a game out to see if I like it for 1 hour, I don't want to be learning the rules and game UI quirks the hard way for 45'.

Re polish, an example: I tried to play the game a few days ago on a browser. I start the game and saw my character, in a 3x3 visible grid, and a vertical visible corridor. In my big, big screen, I did not notice the minimap. Pressing 'up' and 'down' had no effect besides some tiles changing and some monster appearing. You can call me dumb, but with the way I've been used to 'fog of war' which this game lacks, I *did not* realize that I was moving, and it confused me a *lot*.

I agree. I have a whole list of things. The fog of war is one of those things I did for aesthetic reasons (that tile is pitch black and you can't see it), but I think everyone here has disliked it and this is the first time I've had someone say it made the game look like it was frozen. I'm going to reevaluate. Some other big things:

• Get FOV working correctly. It's currently very hacky and you should be able to see more tiles than you can (especially in a narrow hallway).
• Improve level generation so there are fewer floating hallways and dead endds.
• Make it fully playable with mouse or keyboard. It's close on keyboard, but not mouse.
• Maybe: expand the FOV to something like 7 tiles in each direction instead of 5.  Currently, it's usually too late to run away once you've seen an enemy

My opinion is that Golden Krone Hotel is a real solid 7drl but isn't good enough to justify a commercial release.  More monsters and items are nice but GKH's real problem is that it's too shallow.

Thank you Vanguard. This is the the thing I was looking for. I personally have those doubts, but it's hard to know if I'm judging things objectively.

I struggle with the shallow/complex thing. I made the thing simple on purpose. There's no endless item, inventory, skill management. Is that needed for a game to succeed? I don't know. Not to compare my game to it, but consider something like 868-HACK. 868-HACK is a brilliantly designed game, absolutely brilliant, but on paper the game sounds really simple: move through 8 levels of 6x6 grid, collect powers, and try to get a high score. It that too shallow? For a few bucks?

I don't have plans to add a lot layers of complexity to the game. At most, I've been considering adding some collectible abilities to the vampire side, so you can do more than just walk around (it would fit in nicely by replacing magic). I think some emergent complexity can be wringed out with new spells, potions, and monsters (that are actually interesting), but nothing that would try to reach at the depth of a big traditional RL. If that's the dealbreaker, I'll move onto other things. No biggie. This is just a thought experiment.

[jere]

Just to ramble a little bit more:

The game could certainly use more meaningful decisions. What I don't want to do is something that keeps you stuck in a menu. Like, I could add complex weapons, weapon types, branding. A lot of that stuff can be filler though (multiple types behaving identically) and I don't want the player to be overwhelmed with managing a huge inventory, carrying around dozens of swords because each one has a small advantage in various situations, etc.

What I would like is to have more tactical choices at any given moment and add a little more choice to the progression. So maybe you pick up books and they offer to teach you your choice of 1 out of 3 spells. And I kick your spell slots up to 4 or 5. If there were dozens of useful spells, I think the game would be a lot more interesting. I'd probably do something similar for adding vampire abilities. These things would give you one-time progression choices and constant tactical choice. I'm also thinking about getting rid of the potion identification, so you actually spend more time deciding which potions to use.

But when you use the words "shallow" and "depth", I have a feeling you mean there are no skills, no races, no mutations/religion, etc.

[Darren Grey]

Different people will have varying opinions of what's good enough to get on Steam. I've certainly changed my mind after seeing the like of HyperRogue and 868-Hack thrive on there. I never thought they would be on Steam without a slew of negative comments.

A key point is pricing. $1 on Steam means something totally different to $1 on mobile. $1 is ridiculous in fact and is probably way too low for any game.

There's a lot of crap on Steam these days, but the biggest problem is buggy, unpolished and unfinished games, not small games. And the idea that small games can detract from big games is ludicrous. Only bad games are bad, the size is irrelevant.