Author Topic: Golden Krone Hotel  (Read 26821 times)

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 12:11:33 AM »
Quote
Human form suffers a lot from how rare equipment is, and maybe it's just me, but the human form feels weaker in general.
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I found when I played the 7DRL version that the game was pretty easy once you became a vampire, as long as you stayed that way. Hoovering up blood from slain enemies mostly made survival a non-issue.
Ah! I was curious about that! If vampires are the no-brainer choice, that's anathema to my vision of the game. It doesn't work thematically and I don't think it's as fun as having both be balanced.

Thus, here is one last major update to try to fix that. It also adds a boss to each branch. http://humbit.com/gkh/

  • Each dungeon branch now has its own boss; you must beat all 4 to reach Fane. Lots of balance tweaks with the primary goal of making human mode as good as vampire mode.
  • There are now 4 mandatory bosses, one in each branch: a werewolf, a trickster faery, a vampire necromancer, and a human princess.
  • The effect of dexterity has been condensed. There is less marginal utility in a dex upgrade (it was previously way too powerful) and the speed difference between the fastest and slowest creatures has been reduced signficantly.
  • Enemy humans are a lot tougher.
  • Removed the blood golem and added 4 new enemies: Ice Golem, Sunstone Golem, Field Viper, and Sand Viper
  • Added a "poisoned" status, which prevents most forms of HP recovery. Vipers and Rat Assassins cause poisoning and several potions have been added that deal with this concept.
  • Added a "delusion" status. You can become afflicted through a certain potion or through one other route...
  • Added a potion that reveals a floor layout.
  • The order of potions was previously deterministic, but they are now shuffled at the start of a game.
  • Fixed a bug with the light icon not displaying correctly.
  • The Varcolac now acts like a normal human during the day (instead of always fighting you)

I'm happy with the current complexity and length. There are now:
-20 monsters
-5 bosses
-9 spells
-20 potions

So I'll probably only stick to balance updates from now on. I've been playing all day and haven't beat this version yet. It's really bloody difficult!

Or maybe I'm just bad at roguelikes. I've been playing DCSS for years and have only beat it once.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 12:13:47 AM by jere »
Golden Krone Hotel -- available on Steam Early Access now

Z

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2014, 09:59:12 PM »
A great game! I think it is too hard now, though.

I think the map should be improved. Torches, their states, and broken windows should be shown. Maybe even show the light from the broken windows? It would be more precise than the current light icon, make the mechanics clearer for the new players, and help with the strategy for the experts.

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2014, 10:13:17 PM »
Thank you very much!

Every time I revisit it, I tend to add more information to the map. Showing windows is a really good idea; I'll probably do that. I'm not so sure about the torches though because they're pretty abundant and the time you most desperately need to find one is in an area you haven't yet visited and thus wouldn't be on the map. The challenge with the map is that I'm running out of distinct colors and I don't have another way to distinguish elements. If I add too many things, I also worry that it will be way too confusing.

Now I really have to ask for more detail about the difficulty (because this is some of the only feedback I've gotten since the bump). What are you having trouble with? How far are you getting and what is typically killing you? To me, it seems no more difficult that some of the standard big RLs, but I also know exactly how everything works. Are you resting, using stealth, lighting torches, etc.?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 10:33:38 PM by jere »
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Z

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2014, 12:24:45 AM »
Well, I have a feeling of hardness that I do not usually have when playing roguelikes. Hard to tell how much of this is unfair, and how much it is due to my inexperience with the innovative features. Most monsters are threats, and meeting two at once is often deadly. In most big roguelikes, threats occur rather rarely, and you get some escape routes (teleport, healing, powerful wands, etc.). I seem not to get enough of them here (of course, a roguelike is won once you play so good that you get more healing potions and other escape routes than you use, maybe I am simply not yet on this level).

Currently I get to around floor 4 in my better games.

Sometimes I get killed by unintentional starvation (I am suddenly dead). An audio hint and some other hint would be helpful here.

But generally, meeting something too strong. For example, in my last game: I walk around on Floor 4 in the human form, and I meet a green man. Sunlight makes it stronger, and it is faster. I see no way to prevent death in this situation.

I also once almost starved (found no food -- actually I did not starve, I went to the next floor looking for food and got killed by a powerful lapis golem, but anyway). There was no food on the first two floors, or something.

Showing torches on the map surely would be helpful -- I go as a vampire, extinguish all the torches to kill humans, then I return as a human to kill the vampires, and I want to know where these torches were.

Maybe you could use this style for the map: http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/33/32467/dungeon2.png -- basically, a tiny ASCII screen. Then you could easily mark everything clearly.

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 12:51:26 AM »
Ok, thanks for the feedback. I see your point about the torches.

Here are some of my initial responses (please know I'm taking your report seriously though).

There are a few escape items. If you're fighting against a human/vampire, switching to the other form is a pretty reliable escape. Soul elixirs and blood are the two common potions, so you usually have this option available. Retreating into darkness can work often because most things can't see in low light; doing it as a human is really dangerous though. There are a few other rare escapes: health potions, celestial essence (kills all vampires), unholy essence (turns everything dark).

Hunger might be too much of a problem, but you do start with an Ale in case you don't find food early on. There should be a pretty noticeable starvation warning that says EAT SOMETHING!!! An audio cue would be good.

Golems are really strong, but you can run away from them easily. Sunlit Green Men are meant to be huge threats. Your best bet is probably to run into a dark area.

You shouldn't have much trouble getting to floor 4. But as I give these tips, I realize they're not immediately clear. Also, keep in mind that there are only 9 main floors compared to 27 or more for a lot of RLs, so floor 4 is nearing the mid-game.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 12:57:41 AM by jere »
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Z

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 10:43:51 AM »
Yes, I know about switching the form as an escape route. Does not work against green men or groups which include both humans and vampires, though. In my case of the green man, there was no darkness nearby either.

When exploring, I look at the main screen, not at the message log, so I don't notice "EAT SOMETHING!". Also when fighting, I see what happens from the main screen, so I don't look at the message log.

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2014, 04:56:38 AM »
I'm working on some of these changes. In the middle of this, I wanted to post two options for how the map could look.



Option 1 on the left: lit torches are yellow; unlit torches are brown.

Option 2 on the right: no torches are shown, but the lighting is displayed.

I'm heavily leaning towards the second option because a) it looks pretty damn cool, b) it's a lot less cluttered, and c) it still lets you easily figure out which areas are lit.
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Z

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2014, 11:49:42 AM »
Option 2 looks great, but walls (and unknown places) should use a different color, and broken windows should be marked. Would the sunlight be shown?

It does not solve the problem I mentioned above (where are the torches in the dark areas?). Why not just put a single pixel in the middle of the square which represents a torch?

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2014, 01:17:47 PM »
Unexplored is always black. Walls will now be grayish blue.

These are at night, but if sun is coming in through a window it appears yellow. I don't think it's worthwhile to distinguish broken windows in other cases. You know you can break them right?

I must have misread your comment above. I thought you just wanted to find lit torches as a vampire. I'll have to think about this because a single pixel is going to be really hard to see.

[edit: here is the final result]

« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 03:09:28 PM by jere »
Golden Krone Hotel -- available on Steam Early Access now

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2014, 03:52:45 PM »
I really should be working on my school work right now......

v1.5  :P

  • Improvements to the map. Tons of balance tweaks.
  • The map now shows lighting (including sunlight), windows, and unlit torches.
  • Audio cue added when near starvation.
  • Wait key (.) now works on numpad.
  • Green Man has moved up a floor to prevent early deaths to sunlit Green Men
  • Lapis Golem has been moved down a floor (swapped with Green Man) and weakened.
  • Tweaks: slightly less XP required to level, hunger issues reduced a bit, balaurs slowed somewhat, and a few early monsters are easier.

Thanks for the feedback, Z! They were great ideas. I believe this addresses most of it. Lighted areas let you know where light sources are coming, so that should mostly cover lit torches. And unlit torches are now displayed.

As for the difficulty, I've made a few small changes. Green Men should usually appear on Floor 5 and the earliest you could possibly see them is Floor 3. I am still not convinced the game is overall too hard, but I'll certainly listen to someone who disagrees.
Golden Krone Hotel -- available on Steam Early Access now

Z

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 11:48:17 PM »
Looks great, but is it intentional that Hunters (or whatever the guys with torches are called) are visible on the map?

I think that SWD and SHD should show up for vampires, but grayed out (just like spells).

I have reached Floor 6, but I have used up my soul elixirs, and hunters guarding the stairways seemed too strong for some reason :( In my last game of v1.4 I have reached Floor 6, but Rat Assassins proved too strong, but now they don't feel as strong, not sure whether this is because of higher XP, or of better equipment found.

Regarding hardness: if you can win the game (with strategy, not with luck), then it is not too hard. :)

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2014, 12:08:04 AM »
Heh. I was wondering if someone would catch that. ;D That just falls out naturally from the way the lighting on the mini-map is drawn. It's kind of odd because the map shoudn't normally show enemies, but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. I'm too lazy to maintain some sort of "last seen lightness" value. Plus I'd have to remove the sunlight drawing, which is surprisingly awesome.

I'll say that how many soul elixirs/blood you can conserve correlates with skill. Sort of what you were saying earlier. Because when I make a lot of dumb decisions (and I do), I waste them quickly trying to save myself.

Glad to hear you reached Floor 6! You get branches on floors 6-9.

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Rat Assassins proved too strong, but now they don't feel as strong
Not sure when exactly you played, but at some point I nerfed several OP monsters. Rat Assassins were one.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 12:11:47 AM by jere »
Golden Krone Hotel -- available on Steam Early Access now

Z

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2014, 02:13:42 PM »
Yes, it looks like a bug, but might actually improve the gameplay experience. GHK is a bit atypical from other roguelikes, because I often have to leave enemies for later (humans met while in human form, vampires met while in vampire form), and I would like to remember where they are. You could even think about displaying all the previously seen enemies on the map, not only hunters  (thematically, Arobase should have some "exalted huntress" instincts and thus be great at tracking enemies, and the hunter thing would no longer seem a bug).

Another thing a bit suspicious:
Code: [Select]
#######
.......
...@...
.......
#######
I am walking in the southern corridor, which is of width 3, and dark. I prefer to go in the middle, to see all the three rows. I don't see the southern windows on the main map, but I do see them on the mini-map, so when vampires come, I could blast them, even if I didn't see them on the main map. I also see the unlit torches on the mini-map before seeing them on the main map.

A pity that I cannot break windows as a vampire ;)

Usually I have around 8 soul elixirs after Floor 2, but sometimes I have just 2.

It might be also a good idea to display more information about spells. Is the Blast spell only for breaking windows/walls, or can it be also used to attack enemies? Can other spells break windows? What's the range? Does Silver work only against vampires, or also against werewolves and ghosts? How powerful it is compared to Shock and Ice? Are some monsters resistant to specific spells?

jere

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2014, 05:20:55 PM »
So I've thought about that a lot. Tracking down enemies is indeed tedious. However, there's a problem with always showing previously seen enemies: it really reduces the risk of walking through dark areas as a human. You should get punished for walking around in the dark OR putting yourself in a bad tactical position as a vampire (stuck in long lit hallway). There is a spell called DETECT that basically does what you're asking for.

You've found more bugs. Sharp! I knew about that one, but left it in because it makes a lot easier for the player (as opposed to you having to do TWO walks down that hallway). But I'm also contradicting the previous paragraph, so I'm not sure.

Spell descriptions can be seen if you ID a grimoire before reading it. Which I know is lame, but I had all the descriptions in the Help before. People either didn't read it or (and I watched this in an LP) would read all of it word by word and then proceed to totally forget it 10 seconds later. WHAT DOES BLAST DO? Maybe I should put an info button on the magic buttons themselves.

Assuming you actually wanted answers: blast is the only way to destroy windows. It also damages obstacles, hurts Golems, and opens doors. Silver works only against vampires and the Varcolac and it does percent damage, so it's excellent as a first or second shot. Ice and shock are equivalent damage, but ice slows and shock goes through anything but walls (you can use this knowledge when fighting humans). Firestorm does a bit more since it is close range. Firestorm, shock, and glow all provide some form of light. I think the only monster with a specific weakness is the Ice Golem (want to guess?).

I beat the game by the way. AND I killed Fane, which I can almost never do. So If i can do that in only a few tries, the only thing I worry about is how reliant I am on spoilers. Is a tips page or small wiki in order?
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Z

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Re: Golden Krone Hotel
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2014, 10:15:07 PM »
Yes, I did not think about that when posting. But the idea is to track enemies which are currently far away, and only them (contrary to the Detect spell, which only shows the close enemies AFAIK). I am currently using torches to mark the enemies, but it does not work very well. :)

Code: [Select]
10:43 Select a direction for SILVER.
10:43 You hit the Brawler with SILVER.
10:54 Select a direction for SILVER.
10:54 You hit the Brawler with SILVER.
10:57 You die of starvation.

Apparently SILVER2 starves me even if I am still above the warning level. (Are the higher level spells more starving anyway?)

What about showing when the transformation will happen? Transforming just after a tough battle (no HP) or in the middle of a group of humans is a loss of Soul Elixir, at least. I see that my first transformation is always the same time (about 3:20 pm on the second day), I am not sure about the next transformations, but it also seems to take about 30 hours from the last Soul Elixir (I always forget to take notes, so i am not sure here).

Thanks for explaining the spells! I thought that SILVER was useless, but apparently I simply always tested it on the nearly dead vampires.