Author Topic: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4)  (Read 38437 times)

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2014, 06:28:05 AM »
I also don't feel any sense of lack if I don't learn anything new or necesarily improve my future chances of success, the experience of pitting myself against the overwhelming odds is my end game.

But floor 14 are not overwhelming odds, you just lack information to plan in advance and properly prepare. It's like playing chess without fully knowing the rules. The only difference whether you will undo last move and continue playing, or start all over from the beginning, is that you will learn much faster without playing 50 more games until you get yourself into similar situation to finally analyse it again and hopefully see the best solution this time around. It's sadistic way to learn, slow and non-optimal. You wouldn't want to learn chess that way, I don't see why is it any better to torture yourself in Brogue.


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I appreciate your perspective but Brogue wouldn't be Brogue to me if I could keep restarting upon failure and so while I'm aware I could manually save scum anyway (but never would), having it be the default operation is something I really dislike and it would surprise me if I was in the minority on this.

There is nothing to dislike. It's no different than every chess program having the option to undo moves, and if you want to play a proper game, you just simply don't. But if you want to learn how to play first, it will save you time.


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Let's avoid talk of reduced difficulty altogether: is there any way of disabling the sneak functions that you've added? If not, would you consider releasing an additional version without them?

I want to finish this project and release one final build. Full-mod v9e is what needs attention here, it would be counter-productive to make any other release.

Vanguard

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2014, 07:43:10 AM »
I think you just birthed a new meme with 'Disagreedo'

I didn't come up with it.

But anyway, here's how you beat Brogue: enchant a broadsword until you can use it, then enchant plate armor until you can use it, then bump into every enemy until they die.  Now you know the rules.  Now you don't have an excuse for failure.

The save scum feature in this version is not a problem because the game doesn't force you to use it.

RiC David

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2014, 09:17:39 PM »
But floor 14 are not overwhelming odds, you just lack information to plan in advance and properly prepare. It's like playing chess without fully knowing the rules. The only difference whether you will undo last move and continue playing, or start all over from the beginning, is that you will learn much faster without playing 50 more games until you get yourself into similar situation to finally analyse it again and hopefully see the best solution this time around. It's sadistic way to learn, slow and non-optimal. You wouldn't want to learn chess that way, I don't see why is it any better to torture yourself in Brogue.

Floor 14 is indeed overwhelming odds to me because I've yet to 'level up' my own playing ability (in addition to lacking knowledge of future hazards). I'm not a great strategist (see the complete vid for proof of this - youtube.com/watch?v=F7rBPsAUqp0) just as I'm not a great chess player despite fully understanding the moves and rules. Of course I understand that if I save scummed in order to cheat death I could gain knowledge that would improve my chances of advancement without scumming in future but I have no desire for that because, again, the advancement to later levels or the completion of the game is not overly important to me. Playing the game as is and hopefully making gradual process as I do is what I want from the game, it's my preferred experience - I don't see the need for contention here, I'm not trying to convince anyone that my perspective is superior, I'm just telling you why I like what I like and why that feature is lost on me.

Yesterday's play through (as featured in that video) went tits up after I accidentally threw a staff of tunnelling instead of zapping it at a salamander who was guarding an imprisoned troll. Had I zapped him, he would have been knocked across the room, I would have freed the troll, and probably survived. As it happened, I instead threw a potion of descent at him thinking I was far enough away only to learn that I wasn't - the fall didn't kill me but I never recovered my game and died on floor 14. Is that a masochistic way of learning from mistakes? Sure if you see it as punishment, I just see it as 'no safety net' serious business gaming. Of course it's non optimal but I don't care for optimal play as I know many players do - I don't see it as a rubix cube to be solved as efficiently as possible, I see it as an experience: an adventure, not a puzzle. It would be torture for you, not me.

Why the defensiveness? I've practically gone overboard in emphasising that I don't think your features are bad, they simply don't mesh with my style of play; I'm explaining my preferences and you're making a case for why I should do things differently - for whose benefit? For efficiency and optimality's sake? I personally can't stand that approach to gaming (though I completely understand it). Again, I'm not requesting that you remove those features for everyone - just asking if you'd make a version without them for players like myself. You eventually declined, which is fine, I just wish we could have got there with less defence of said features! As I'm being less diplomatic now, I'll say that it's ridiculous that you've insisted that your features don't make the game easier - of course they do. You increase the chances of going unseen which obviously decreases the chances of being attacked. As for the mirror statues reflecting magic (a brilliant idea), to say this doesn't make the game easier is just absurd. Being able to heal yourself, increase your strength etc. isn't making the game easier? If "easier" is such a prejorative to you then use a euphemism or don't make the game easier! Either the difficulty is increased, unchanged, or decreased - I don't think it's open to subjective interpretation.


Quote from: RiC
I appreciate your perspective but Brogue wouldn't be Brogue to me if I could keep restarting upon failure and so while I'm aware I could manually save scum anyway (but never would), having it be the default operation is something I really dislike and it would surprise me if I was in the minority on this.

Quote from: LazyCat
There is nothing to dislike. It's no different than every chess program having the option to undo moves, and if you want to play a proper game, you just simply don't. But if you want to learn how to play first, it will save you time.

There is nothing to dislike? Come on now. If there was nothing to dislike, the term 'scum' would never have been coined and every roguelike would implement it. If I dislike it then there's something to dislike - your defensiveness borders on belligerence here. Absolutely we can simply avoid using it and yes it's my fault if my willpower is so low that I struggle to resist the temptation but I doubt I'm the only one with that conflict of interest and that's why I'd find an option to disable it preferable. If most people like it as you've made it then keep it like that, maybe I'm wrong and I am in the minority here but I'm telling you how I found it because presumably as you're releasing this to the public, you're making it with other people in mind and if most people share my perspective then it's a perspective to acknowledge, surely.


Quote from: Vanguard
But anyway, here's how you beat Brogue: enchant a broadsword until you can use it, then enchant plate armor until you can use it, then bump into every enemy until they die.  Now you know the rules.  Now you don't have an excuse for failure.

Kill or evade the things that are trying to kill you and don't get killed yourself. Got it. There'll be no stopping me now!

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The save scum feature in this version is not a problem because the game doesn't force you to use it.

I don't think that logic is water tight though. If that's all there is to it then why not have the game say "You have died. Continue?" It wouldn't be forcing you to, just providing the convenient option. If you think that would be a bad idea then you share my reasoning. While I love permadeath, I don't love dying just as I don't love failing at anything. If you give people the easy option of cheating death then naturally we're likely to do it; yes you can say it's our fault for succumbing to temptation but the perfect solution is to enable us to choose permadeath from the start so as not to be tempted at all once we die (even though we have no excuse for failure). A significant part of game design is not leaving it down to a player's discipline to not do certain things so surely you can see the value in an option at the start to enable or disable save scumming.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 09:30:29 PM by RiC David »

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2014, 10:25:24 AM »
You think you are having more fun that way, but you haven't tried it the other way. Save scumming does not make you invincible, to complete the game you still have to actually overcome all the challenges just the same, and you still might not succeed. Go ahead and try, then let us know, is it really any less fun and how easy it actually was.

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2014, 10:45:13 AM »
Release 9x is out, first post updated with the download link. Few changes related to Vanguard's bug-report and calculation of sneaking percentages.

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update)
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2014, 02:19:40 AM »
174MOD:
Brogue-AUDIO_174A3s (17. December, 2014)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/brogueaudio/files/Brogue-AUDIO_174A3s.zip

Quote from: ChangeLog
174MOD (audio only):
- music and sound effects support
- improved light and shadows visibility
- no gameplay changes, compatible save-game with vanilla Brogue 1.7.4

174MOD (sneaking):
- sneaking, rest-walk-rest-walk... to keep stealth range low

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update)
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2015, 06:04:29 PM »
New version, some polishing and volume balancing. Also included Oryx tiles + audio mod.
First post updated with the download link.

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update) -- NEW: Linux binary
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2015, 04:08:40 PM »
New and final 1.7.4 audio mod version. Some more polish, few new sounds, and Linux build bundled. First post updated with the download link.

Legend

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update) -- NEW: Linux binary
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2015, 02:00:24 PM »
sorry about the bump, but how do you enable the tiles?

Lanhash

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update) -- NEW: Linux binary
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2016, 08:39:57 AM »
bumping this as well. how do you enable Tiles ?

Z

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update) -- NEW: Linux binary
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2016, 10:44:12 AM »
I have ported Brogue to NotEye: http://www.roguetemple.com/z/noteye/brogue.php

This includes Oryx tiles and LazyCat's audio (but not his other modifications).

Nekoninja

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update) -- NEW: Linux binary
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2016, 12:09:23 AM »
Scroll of shattering
- monsters can get embedded in the green crystal

Does that sound like pokemon game where you capture monster with ball? Got to try that.
Bow to me, your evil programmer or I will destroy the internet with my 'delete' button!

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4 update) -- NEW: Linux binary
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2016, 06:33:25 PM »
bumping this as well. how do you enable Tiles ?

Oryx tiles version with audio support was a separate build on its own. I've taken it offline as there were bugs that I couldn't be bothered fixing. I think regular Brogue ACSII visuals actually look better than the tiles. I recommend giving it some time getting used to and it will grow on you.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 02:56:41 AM by LazyCat »

Squeeealer

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4)
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2016, 08:16:54 PM »
I was using Page Up/Down to adjust window size, but that would kill the audio. So I tried using ALT+Enter to maximize and that worked just fine and kept the audio. I'll have to see if it's easy to ESC out of that to check something, then go back to the game and re-maximize without affecting audio.

LazyCat

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Re: Brogue-AUDIO (1.7.4)
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2016, 08:50:35 PM »
I was using Page Up/Down to adjust window size, but that would kill the audio. So I tried using ALT+Enter to maximize and that worked just fine and kept the audio. I'll have to see if it's easy to ESC out of that to check something, then go back to the game and re-maximize without affecting audio.

Good. Alt+Enter will switch both in and out of full-screen.