Author Topic: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives  (Read 110226 times)

Gr3yling

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2013, 04:52:31 AM »
Well, AgingMinotaur touched on a lot of topics I find interesting, so this is a long post.

On the other hand, I keep coming back to ADOM and immensely enjoy the feeling of an actual world/story going on, even if the prose and plot would be just laughable in any other medium (Khelevaster's monologue epitomizes this).

I really like ADOM’s plot.  For instance, I feel like the whole idea of "corruption" in ADOM is brilliant.  Corruption/chaos/entropy is such an interesting and multifaceted entity in that game.  It is framed as having some characteristics of an infectious agent or contaminating substance, some characteristics of ionizing radiation, and some characteristics some sort of cosmic force that wants to enslave the world (sort of like the way “sin” is sometimes referred to by Paul in The Book of Romans).   

Obviously, the process of becoming corrupted also involves the idea of giving up your humanity in exchange for great power.  You can do what amounts to making a pact with the devil to temporarily become very strong through corruptions, but you know they will be the PC’s downfall, because ultimately the only outcome of embracing corruption is to become a writhing mass of primordial chaos.

I think a similar idea was implemented in another game over a decade ago (the name of which I forgot), except in that one both order and chaos were deadly if taken to extremes.  Acchieving a state of “pure, crystalline order” as they put it, would ultimately kill the PC.  I guess that makes sense, because in a zero entropy state, wouldn’t a person have to be in some sort of crystalline form?

I’d really like to see a game that was built around balancing order and chaos, instead of just avoiding chaos.  And I’d also like to see a distinction made between good and evil and order and chaos.  A person (or diety) can be very disorganized, or even crazy, and still be kind and just.  On the other hand, someone can become obsessed with rigidly following a set or rules or belief system to the point that they become a dangerous zealot who values those rules more than actual morality.

Incidentally, you really should try Caves of Qud. Heavily inspired by ADOM, except the setting is actually quite original, and the prose isn't half bad. For kicks, hack down the zealot in starting village Joppa and read his book of religious doctrines (sells at a decent price, too). TOME also does lore in the form of paper scraps lying about and such, although I never got the same kick out of that as I did from ADOM and CoQ.

I will check it out.  Your last post does illustrate a very important point related to in game lore.  It sounds like what makes the zealot's book so interesting is that, far from being a mandatory plot element, or even an unobtrusive optional element, it is actually hidden. 

In this situation, learning more about the plot is an act of discovery, of uncovering secrets about the world.  You wouldn’t just give these sorts of tidbits to the player any more than you would give them a powerful artifact at no cost or risk to them. 

I think it would be interesting to have a game where these secrets contradicted the conventional way the game world was perceived by most NPCs and reported to the player.  What seemed like the “normal ending” might be revealed to be an absolutely terrible outcome, once the player did a substantial amount of this plot related digging in subsequent play-throughs. 

This would be sort of an “everything you think you know is wrong” approach.  Essentially, when the player made what appeared to be the right choices, they would naively be helping evil forces that seemed superficially good.

Re: reading real world mythology, akeley mentioned it's not really comparable to novels, for instance. While that's a valid point, there were a bunch of works that were written precisely as art, and I'd be hard pressed to mention a literary work that outclasses Ovid's Metamorphoses, for instance. I suspect you'd find Ovid or Homer a bit stale (although they class among my personal favorites, like evvah biatches). Still, you might give Gilgamesh a try – short, sweet, and very ancient – or, for a different beast, and if you enjoy a faerie tale style, The Thousand and One Nights, although that's not mythology per se. Campbell et al., that's all pretty theoretical, right? There are also a ton of books that simply retell the myths. Many are aimed at kids and young adults, but can be quite entertaining, nonetheless.

I’ve read a decent amount about the Gilgamesh epic in the books that I mentioned.  I don’t know, I just couldn’t get into it very much.  I can’t help but think that the reason those types of myths are considered great is because so many later stories were inspired by them and built on them, rather than them being great stories themselves. 

I think a RL story/setting should ideally have randomized parts. Doing that right has proved damned difficult, even though it *should* not be too hard, in theory ;)

When it comes to a randomized story system, what about just randomizing the certain "intentions" of certain prominent NPC's? NPC's would always have the same alignment, like chaotic or lawful, but whether they were good and honest or evil and dishonest would be the random part (remember, I want to separate how chaotic a character is from how moral they are).  The probability might be weighted so that a character was usually “who they were supposed to be” but without it being a certainty. 

Since you could never assume an NPC was honest, speech skills that could detect dishonesty would be important.  Also, if the PC was desperate, they might rationally decide to take a chance and trust a normally dishonest character.  This would make sense, because it is possible that character had been marked and honest that play-through.

The idea of lying to the player in various ways is an interesting one to me in general, actually.

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2013, 04:55:39 AM »
Bonus design points if each piece of the 'lore' book you need to find gives a new ability related to what is actually in the lore...

"You've found a piece of the Book of Fabula, chapter 2: Hell's Rising..."

"You've learned the fireball ability."

Also if the boss or guardian of the piece of the book is procedurally generated, but has the power of that chapter would be neat.

"You've encountered Uttel-Bash, a wraith with the ability to summon bats..."

And the piece of book he protects has a story about a great bat-like demon lord, precursor to all modern day vampire bats (which are a monster in the game). Also that piece lets you summon bats, just like the wraith did.

Just some ideas that link lore and mechanics. Lore can add depth to a world, helping you imagine what you are doing, but it can also integrate with the mechanics I think.

Spit balling really. Maybe I should play more Adom.

Gr3yling

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2013, 05:36:18 AM »
Very nice, Jo.

See, I told you guys, story in roguelikes does have potential.

EDIT: And a wise man might be able to tell you where that dragon that was terrorizing the town had a missing scale, making him vulnerable to weapons that otherwise would not hurt him.

Information should be powerful.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 05:38:06 AM by Gr3yling »

Zireael

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2013, 08:14:13 AM »
Linking lore and mechanics and info sound like great ideas!

Vanguard

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2013, 10:52:32 AM »
I’ve read a decent amount about the Gilgamesh epic in the books that I mentioned.  I don’t know, I just couldn’t get into it very much.  I can’t help but think that the reason those types of myths are considered great is because so many later stories were inspired by them and built on them, rather than them being great stories themselves.

Nah, that isn't it.

While I won't say that every single myth is a masterpiece, among them are some of the best stories ever written, and nothing can compete with them for imagination.

Just because they're good doesn't mean you have to like them.  Everyone has bad media they like and good media they don't like.

akeley

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2013, 11:41:14 AM »
I think a RL story/setting should ideally have randomized parts. Doing that right has proved damned difficult, even though it *should* not be too hard, in theory ;) Also, I'd like to (see more people) experiment with bundling the story in with actual gameplay.

This should be the Golden Rule for stories in RLs (also love the examples that followed). It`s basically why I play roguelikes; for things that I miss in mainstream games. There, the idea of lore communicated through assorted logs/books/scrolls have been used since forever, and yet it`s seldom meaningfully utilised. Sure, some classics like System Shock/Deus Ex use it to great effect, building atmosphere but also tying some gameplay in - important info or codes/passwords. And yet, especially recently, this mechanic has become an empty filler, where there are tons of lengthy tomes to be read, unfortunately they are totally irrelevant to the gameplay - if you skip  these, you won`t miss a thing. I suppose lots of people do enjoy them if they really like the game...but as we said earlier, writing in games is usually lacking, therefore I have a very little interest in such devices. But if there was some meaningful interaction on offer, then it`s a different story (pun not intended).

I`m also a big fan of Subdued Storytelling(TM) in games, a thing probably rooted in my 8 bit origins. Quite often a few lines of text was all you had to go on back then (also a great reward in certain situations). But it worked beautifully - since imagination was taking over, a sentence or two could set the mood or hint at things, and the rest was filled by yourself. It`s sort of like film narratives work, due to time constraints.  My favourite these days is "You hear a shout!" in Crawl - few words, yet loaded with meaning and  possibilities. Who`s shouting? At who? What are they saying?  (well, that` one`s easy ;) Boy, am I in trouble now...  This is a kind of thing I`d prefer  to see in RLs - superb mechanics, with plots hinted at, but mostly augmented by players imagination. It just fits the overall medium somehow better (for me).

Re: mythologies - I agree with Vanguard, these sure are some of the best stories ever (maybe not "the" best though, there still are contemporary fantasy writers worth their salt).  Perhaps the problem arises when trying to approach the original texts - admittedly, I was obsessed with Greek myths as a kid, but never really read Homer et al - just "novelisations" by contemporary authors, which were much more palatable (though by no means crippled). Thinking of it now, perhaps it`s time to have a stab at the sources...

Also, 1001 Nights is a marvel - perhaps even my favourite in the myth world. Djinns,  robotic creatures, Sindbad, haunted cities and so on and on - a real treasure trove. All soaked in heavy MidEastern vibes from a civilization rather different from ours. They`re also totally ruthless and cruel, ain`t no fairytales for sure - the Western versions have been often toned down, so it`s important to find a good translation.

Two recommendations: Gene Wolfe`s "Soldier of the Mist" - story of an amnesiac Roman soldier who travels half-real, half-mythological Greece during the Persian Wars. Words fail me to describe its genius - it`s a multi-layered writing of a highest order, that works both as an excellent adventure but also so much more.

And also "Anamnesis, of Renascents and Monsters", the game from our Announcements thread: http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=2805.0 Just tried it yesterday and it`s very exciting, a strange beast to describe (a text based strategy with RL elements sounds rather silly) - but definitely worth having a look when discussing randomized storylines.


« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 11:44:21 AM by akeley »

Gr3yling

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2013, 12:35:54 AM »
I`m also a big fan of Subdued Storytelling(TM) in games, a thing probably rooted in my 8 bit origins. Quite often a few lines of text was all you had to go on back then (also a great reward in certain situations). But it worked beautifully - since imagination was taking over, a sentence or two could set the mood or hint at things, and the rest was filled by yourself. It`s sort of like film narratives work, due to time constraints.  My favourite these days is "You hear a shout!" in Crawl - few words, yet loaded with meaning and  possibilities. Who`s shouting? At who? What are they saying?  (well, that` one`s easy ;) Boy, am I in trouble now...  This is a kind of thing I`d prefer  to see in RLs - superb mechanics, with plots hinted at, but mostly augmented by players imagination. It just fits the overall medium somehow better (for me).

EDIT: There was supposed to actually be text here.  I really love the subdued storytelling idea also.  it's one of the reasons that I enjoy ADOM so much.  Thomas Biskup can say a lot with a few words.

Two recommendations: Gene Wolfe`s "Soldier of the Mist" - story of an amnesiac Roman soldier who travels half-real, half-mythological Greece during the Persian Wars. Words fail me to describe its genius - it`s a multi-layered writing of a highest order, that works both as an excellent adventure but also so much more.

Okay, I will try to check the books you mentioned out.  The next thing I'm going to read is the book that zasvid recommended on game design, but I will look into what you mentioned after that.

And also "Anamnesis, of Renascents and Monsters", the game from our Announcements thread: http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=2805.0 Just tried it yesterday and it`s very exciting, a strange beast to describe (a text based strategy with RL elements sounds rather silly) - but definitely worth having a look when discussing randomized storylines.
[/quote]

I'll look into this one too.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 12:39:02 AM by Gr3yling »

Zireael

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2013, 12:00:25 PM »
Quote
This should be the Golden Rule for stories in RLs (also love the examples that followed). It`s basically why I play roguelikes; for things that I miss in mainstream games. There, the idea of lore communicated through assorted logs/books/scrolls have been used since forever, and yet it`s seldom meaningfully utilised. Sure, some classics like System Shock/Deus Ex use it to great effect, building atmosphere but also tying some gameplay in - important info or codes/passwords.

I've played Deus Ex lots of times and I agree that the logs idea is done beautifully. You might want to add Baldur's Gate to the list, too - at least the first part of the saga had some of the lore communicated via books/letters.

Quazifuji

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2013, 10:45:46 AM »
Quote
When it comes to a randomized story system, what about just randomizing the certain "intentions" of certain prominent NPC's? NPC's would always have the same alignment, like chaotic or lawful, but whether they were good and honest or evil and dishonest would be the random part (remember, I want to separate how chaotic a character is from how moral they are).  The probability might be weighted so that a character was usually “who they were supposed to be” but without it being a certainty. 

Since you could never assume an NPC was honest, speech skills that could detect dishonesty would be important.  Also, if the PC was desperate, they might rationally decide to take a chance and trust a normally dishonest character.  This would make sense, because it is possible that character had been marked and honest that play-through.

The idea of lying to the player in various ways is an interesting one to me in general, actually.

I've always loved the idea of games that lie to the player, and I think your idea of a Roguelike where the characters are somewhat fixed but their intentions vary is awesome.

If you designed the game around it, you could almost end up with a sort of whodunnit-esque scenario.  It would be like a Roguelike mixed with Clue.  You never know who the villain's gonna be each time you play it.

I think the main problem with this is how you stop permadeath from ruining the fun (assuming you've got permadeath).  You're not invested in the plot of your character, you're invested in the gameplay of your character, so when you die and your character's gameplay dies with it you're okay.  But imagine if you've spent hours unravelling the mystery of who the true villain behind the story is, and then, when you know you're getting close to uncovering it, you mess up in combat and get killed?  That would be frustrating, because a gameplay mistake made you lose your story progress too.

Of course, this is a much bigger deal if the whodunnit mystery is a deep plot you get involved in, and not just a giant puzzle in disguise as a story, and having an intriguing procedural plot is incredibly ambitious, but even if it's just a puzzle in disguise, losing your progress on solving a puzzle because of a mistake not related to the puzzle would be frustrating.  It would make sense to lose your progress if you messed up and killed someone who's not actually the villain, but it would suck to lose your progress on something unrelated to combat if you die in combat.

Another possibility is you could make it a normal Roguelike most of the time, and have plot twists be a rare sort of Easter-egg-ish element.  Most of the time, you've got a generic preface where the king tells you to kill the evil wizard, and you delve into the dungeon to kill him.  Maybe you get info throughout the dungeon about his evilness - scraps of paper describing his evil deeds, or he shows up for some mustache twirling, or whatever.  But maybe one time, instead, you find scraps of paper hinting that the wizard's just a scapegoat for all the horrible things the king has done with his tyrant-like rule.  The Wizard shows up and urges you to join him, but it's not the usual villain mustache twirling trying to turn you to his evil agenda.  He really means it when he tells you the king's horrible and he wants your help.  And you can accept, and then you turn around, leave the dungeon, and go kill the king instead.

This could still run into issues that would have to be addressed.  One issue is, how rare do you make the event?  If it's too common, then it loses it's specialness.  If it's too rare, not enough people get to experience it.  It also has issues with permadeath.  What if, after dozens of regular playthroughs, you finally get the plot twist playthrough, and then you die?  You just missed your rare chance to experience the special version because you happened to have a bad game that time.  That would suck.

So I think one of the questions that arises is, how do you combine procedural plot generation with permadeath?  It's one thing to lose your character from a gameplay standpoint, it's another thing to never get a narrative resolved.  You can try softening the permadeath so that you can lose a character without losing the narrative, but then you also lose a certain amount of the point of a procedural plot in the first place - that you can keep creating different characters and get a different plot every time.

Vanguard

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2013, 03:23:40 PM »
If you designed the game around it, you could almost end up with a sort of whodunnit-esque scenario.  It would be like a Roguelike mixed with Clue.  You never know who the villain's gonna be each time you play it.

That's a fun idea.

I think you're worrying too much about permadeath interfering with the narrative.  The story will either be mostly static, in which case you can see the ending in a later playthrough and infer how it would have gone, or else it will be mostly generated, meaning it will almost certainly not be very compelling.

Gr3yling

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2013, 03:49:49 AM »
I've always loved the idea of games that lie to the player, and I think your idea of a Roguelike where the characters are somewhat fixed but their intentions vary is awesome.

Thank you.

Of course, this is a much bigger deal if the whodunnit mystery is a deep plot you get involved in, and not just a giant puzzle in disguise as a story, and having an intriguing procedural plot is incredibly ambitious, but even if it's just a puzzle in disguise, losing your progress on solving a puzzle because of a mistake not related to the puzzle would be frustrating.  It would make sense to lose your progress if you messed up and killed someone who's not actually the villain, but it would suck to lose your progress on something unrelated to combat if you die in combat.

Honestly, I think it would be a good problem to have if the player was so invested in the procedurally generated story they regretted it ending prematurely.  But, it's true, those are things that need to be addressed.

One idea is to have a world that persists between PC's until you decide to "reboot" it, sort of like DDA.  So you could still have a new story every time if you wanted to, but you could also have one that varied if you didn't like the one you got.

Here's something else related to what we are talking about.  It’s the opposite of my previous idea in a lot of ways, but I like it too.  In ADOM, there is one situation where the PC's decisions actually determine what reality is generated, and it's quite fascinating.  I'm talking about the first quest in the game.

As you may know, for that quest, you can either help rescue the village carpenter, or put an evil druid out of commission.  The catch is, the dungeon for both quests is generated in the same location.  And if you take one quest, the other will never have existed.  If you choose to help the carpenter, there never was a druid or his dungeon.  If you choose to help the druid, there never was a carpenter or his dungeon.  It's really a shame that there is only this one example of such a mechanic in the game, because it's really interesting. 

So, the point is, the player could participate in actually writing the story, in deciding who was good and who was evil.  For instance, say in ADOM, when the PC meets Hotzenplotz, the crime lord, for the first time, Hotzenplotzs might ask this of the PC: “Do you believe I am who they say I am? 

If the player answers “no” Hotzenplotz will be generated as good ("you are wise to believe the world is not as simple as those fools would have you believe"), and the sheriff as evil.  A similar exchange could occur with the sheriff, where he asks something like: “You’re not one of those who believes that all power corrupts, are you?”  If you answer yes, the sheriff is evil, and Hotzenplotz is good. 

After you answered one of them this way, the morality of both would be decided, and the other would not ask you their version of the question.

Helping a good Hotzenplotz would be a good, chaotic act.  Helping an evil one would be an evil, chaotic act.  Helping a good sheriff would be a good, lawful act.  Helping an evil one would be an evil, lawful act.

In this way you would always have a quest that gave you the opportunity to tailor your character as you wished.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 03:52:31 AM by Gr3yling »

AgingMinotaur

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2013, 09:16:28 AM »
Of course, this is a much bigger deal if the whodunnit mystery is a deep plot you get involved in, and not just a giant puzzle in disguise as a story, and having an intriguing procedural plot is incredibly ambitious, but even if it's just a puzzle in disguise, losing your progress on solving a puzzle because of a mistake not related to the puzzle would be frustrating.  It would make sense to lose your progress if you messed up and killed someone who's not actually the villain, but it would suck to lose your progress on something unrelated to combat if you die in combat.

Honestly, I think it would be a good problem to have if the player was so invested in the procedurally generated story they regretted it ending prematurely.  But, it's true, those are things that need to be addressed.

One idea is to have a world that persists between PC's until you decide to "reboot" it, sort of like DDA.  So you could still have a new story every time if you wanted to, but you could also have one that varied if you didn't like the one you got.
Based on how flexible your system is, you could also try to work with a world that's consistent between characters, but where the story evolves over a certain number of games, so you do get to see how the plot finally unfolds, even if your heroes are invariably killed by rats. The success of a certain character would be measured in how much impact he/she has on the game world. Between each character, the procedural world/plot would advance a certain number of steps. So if one character is taking part in plots surrounding the crown prince, your next character might enter a world where the prince has already been coronated, or conversely one where some other faction has managed to assassinate or exile him.

Here's something else related to what we are talking about.  It’s the opposite of my previous idea in a lot of ways, but I like it too.  In ADOM, there is one situation where the PC's decisions actually determine what reality is generated, and it's quite fascinating.
[...]
So, the point is, the player could participate in actually writing the story, in deciding who was good and who was evil.
That's a pretty neat idea, to include many junctures in the world, where the player gets to choose between two or more options for how the game world should look. Just to make a note of it, that would probably fit best with a world that's more or less fixed – on the one hand, because it would be a monstrous task to implement this AND a world with lots of random content, but more importantly because such a system relies on the player learning (over the course of many playthroughs) the consequences of the different choices. Still, that wouldn't be so much of a problem, since the player's own choices would constitute a system of procedural world generation in themselves. If you have a dozen junctures with two options, that already leaves us with 4096 different worlds. Ideally, the different "nodes" should have the potential to affect each other. Say, if you've one NPC that's been generated good and has become your ally, that NPC could show up to offer help when at a later stage you're confronted with an enemy who is generated evil. Similarly, if the player has two neighboring cities generated with opposite alignments, there could erupt an armed conflict between them, whilst coaligned settlements might effectuate trade and other forms of cooperation.

As always,
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Quazifuji

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2013, 09:53:26 AM »

Based on how flexible your system is, you could also try to work with a world that's consistent between characters, but where the story evolves over a certain number of games, so you do get to see how the plot finally unfolds, even if your heroes are invariably killed by rats. The success of a certain character would be measured in how much impact he/she has on the game world. Between each character, the procedural world/plot would advance a certain number of steps. So if one character is taking part in plots surrounding the crown prince, your next character might enter a world where the prince has already been coronated, or conversely one where some other faction has managed to assassinate or exile him.


I like this idea.  Persistent world, new characters.  You'd have to figure out how to get the right balance between the freshness of creating a new character and starting from scratch in most roguelikes so that things still feel "new" with new characters, but it's still a cool idea.  In a way, player Ghosts in DCSS are like  a tiny version of this idea - they give the sense that you're exploring the same dungeon all your failed characters died in - but it would be interesting to make something that worked like this on a much larger scale.

Isn't this a little bit of the idea of Rogue Legacy?  I haven't played it, but I know the concept is that every character is supposed to be the descendant of the last character.

Here's something else related to what we are talking about.  It’s the opposite of my previous idea in a lot of ways, but I like it too.  In ADOM, there is one situation where the PC's decisions actually determine what reality is generated, and it's quite fascinating.
[...]
So, the point is, the player could participate in actually writing the story, in deciding who was good and who was evil.

That's a neat idea.  Lots of RPGs let you influence the plot with the decisions you make, but it's always your actions changing the course of events.  I don't think I've ever seen games where your actions affect reality itself.  I like the idea of the game figuring out what you're expectations are and then deliberately conforming to or denying them.

Gr3yling

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2013, 02:51:33 AM »
Still, that wouldn't be so much of a problem, since the player's own choices would constitute a system of procedural world generation in themselves. If you have a dozen junctures with two options, that already leaves us with 4096 different worlds. Ideally, the different "nodes" should have the potential to affect each other. Say, if you've one NPC that's been generated good and has become your ally, that NPC could show up to offer help when at a later stage you're confronted with an enemy who is generated evil. Similarly, if the player has two neighboring cities generated with opposite alignments, there could erupt an armed conflict between them, whilst coaligned settlements might effectuate trade and other forms of cooperation.

So, why are non-static plots considered to be such a bear to implement?  Why don't we see more (any?) games with this sort of nodal plot structure?  Why does the overworld have the exact same locations every time you play ADOM?

miki151

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Re: Roguelike Gameflow - Alternatives
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2013, 08:28:51 AM »
Because you need huge abstractions in the game engine for something like that, and extremely good NPC AI, too. You can find some clues on how to do it in the interviews with Tarn Adams. It's just difficult stuff. And only a handful of players would appreciate it. Most are ok with brownian motion AI like in Adom :).
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