Author Topic: Women & Roguelikes  (Read 32225 times)

TheCakePie

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2012, 07:31:35 AM »
So you ask questions. Interesting questions. Are we designing things that only dudes like? What does that even mean? Is there a way we can include women and basically double the number of players? Without pandering? Can we even discuss this topic without seeming ignorant? Uninformed?

As for me (and I don't speak for ALL women just me) I like all sincere questions. I think it hinders discussion when people are too afraid to sound "stupid," "ignorant," or "sexist".

Darren Grey

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2012, 10:36:51 AM »
It's too bad you think it'd be weird. I thought about the problems that might come up and I thought they were solvable, but it's not my podcast, lol. I think you're right that rogues are one of the more gender inclusive games, and it's likely one reason I always seem to drift toward them.

I'm not dead-set against it, I just have reservations.  I'll listen to the TMA ep and have a think about it.  I certainly don't want to approach a subject so grand as "The Gaming Gender Gap".

Also I'd really want a female developer on, because I think that's an important area that's even more distorted than the player scene.  But, well, there aren't any  :/  Uh, you fancy doing a 7DRL?  :P

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Considering including me is news to me, thank you. (You know I don't just play Dredmor, right?) I'm pretty surprised I was actually mentioned in this discussion at all, but if you still think about it I'm openminded to discussion about that at some point. Anything like that would have to wait a while, I'm adjusting to some hardcore meds. I'm easy to find though so get in touch if you want to talk about it later.

I know in Dredmor you won with a random build GR PD, and though I know from your blog you've played other RLs extensively I'm not aware of anything quite so equally badass you've achieved - correct me if I'm wrong!  I've tried random rolls several times to mediocre results.  It was only relatively recently (about the same time as your random victory in fact) that I beat the game myself.  Also any discussion of Dredmor is worth worth including mention of how cool the community and the devs themselves are, and you seemed well-placed to communicate that.

AgingMinotaur

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2012, 11:55:34 AM »
Also I'd really want a female developer on, because I think that's an important area that's even more distorted than the player scene.  But, well, there aren't any  :/

Well, there's ywgdana (CrashRun) right here on the forums. Don't hear from her a lot these days, though.

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TheCakePie

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2012, 03:33:07 AM »
It's too bad you think it'd be weird. I thought about the problems that might come up and I thought they were solvable, but it's not my podcast, lol. I think you're right that rogues are one of the more gender inclusive games, and it's likely one reason I always seem to drift toward them.

I'm not dead-set against it, I just have reservations.  I'll listen to the TMA ep and have a think about it.  I certainly don't want to approach a subject so grand as "The Gaming Gender Gap".

That sounds reasonable. I'm always for more research, but then again, my thoroughness is part of why I'm into RLs. If you guys come up with anything I for one would be interested in listening.

Also I'd really want a female developer on, because I think that's an important area that's even more distorted than the player scene.  But, well, there aren't any  :/  Uh, you fancy doing a 7DRL?  :P

I did a little python, javascript, and whatever php garbage wordpress is made out of, but I don't think that makes me ready for a 7DRL. There must be women devs out there in Rogues, the more welcoming to women a place can be the higher the chances are of finding them.

I know in Dredmor you won with a random build GR PD, and though I know from your blog you've played other RLs extensively I'm not aware of anything quite so equally badass you've achieved - correct me if I'm wrong!  I've tried random rolls several times to mediocre results.  It was only relatively recently (about the same time as your random victory in fact) that I beat the game myself.  Also any discussion of Dredmor is worth worth including mention of how cool the community and the devs themselves are, and you seemed well-placed to communicate that.

Haha, yeah, not just GR/PD random, but with a dead skill too. Anyway, I've also beaten POWDER 2x now. I've beaten so many of the Hack, Slash, Loot levels as well, now just to unlock all the achievements. Nothing else that compares as for accomplishments, but I play everything RL. My plans are to focus on Dredmor for now, but move into writing about powder then tome. Next could be anything (FTL?) I'm really good so I don't doubt being able to eventually ascend in any rogue I start to play. One person suggested I do a let's play video, and I'm also considering that. I'm nervous about video because I hate when people are stupid dicks to me, and with my current physical limitations things like that are long-term considerations at best. I'm seeing a bit more interest in rogues, and part of why I'm blogging about them is to try to get more people to play. Dredmor so far is an excellent gateway drug (: What do you think? Are RLs getting more attention lately?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 03:35:45 AM by TheCakePie »

guest509

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2012, 09:08:38 AM »
  Oh yes definitely. The upcoming Cardinal Quest 2 release will also be a good gateway game, along with the original.

  You've beaten Powder as well? Nice.

  Have you checked out Brogue? It's ASCII but it's beautiful. Andrew Doull of Ascii Dreams put out a fork of it recently that's interesting. The original Brogue is the only RL I consider a MUST PLAY, the rest are according to taste.

  With the success of games like Dredmore, Cardinal and Dwarf Fortress along with the rise in popularity of independent gaming the Roguelike genre is certainly seeing a renaissance. One of the biggest games out there, ADOM, is getting a facelift and update soon. There was a massive Indiegogo campaign to fund it, over $90k.

  So like, yeah. More exposure. Tons.

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2012, 09:10:01 AM »
  Hey Cake, instead of a LET'S PLAY consider making a strategy vid?
 
  "Let's Beat Powder"

  "Let's Beat Dredmor"

  Just a thought.

Darren Grey

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2012, 10:38:06 AM »
I did a little python, javascript, and whatever php garbage wordpress is made out of, but I don't think that makes me ready for a 7DRL.

You'd be surprised!  After beating a number of roguelikes it's really satisfying to try and make your own.  Plus of all the game types out there it's one of the easiest to make.  A bit of python jiggling with libtcod and you can have your own @ romping around the screen killing whatever type of enemy you like.

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There must be women devs out there in Rogues, the more welcoming to women a place can be the higher the chances are of finding them.

For ages I thought Linley was a woman's name and that roguelikes were truly gender open since one of the biggest and best came from a woman.  Then I found out Linley was a bloke  ;)  Only women devs I know of: Johanna Ploog (who now works for a game company and can't publicly express any original ideas), ywgdana (not seen in two years), Jana Reinhardt (artist and designer for Pitman Krumb, but not a coder and more a general indie dev than a roguelike dev).  So, uh, no one to interview  :(

The gender inequality in development isn't a roguelike-specific thing though - general indie game development is just as bad.  Most women involved are artists or writers rather than coders.  It comes back to penetration (sorry Jo!) - in a male dominated area (gaming) the extremes of that area (development) will be even more male dominated.  Indie gaming and development is even more of an extreme, and roguelike gaming and development is one of the craziest extremes of all!  Though gaming is becoming a more equal hobby I fear it will take a long time for that equality to seep through to all of the extremes.

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Haha, yeah, not just GR/PD random, but with a dead skill too. Anyway, I've also beaten POWDER 2x now. I've beaten so many of the Hack, Slash, Loot levels as well, now just to unlock all the achievements. Nothing else that compares as for accomplishments, but I play everything RL. My plans are to focus on Dredmor for now, but move into writing about powder then tome. Next could be anything (FTL?) I'm really good so I don't doubt being able to eventually ascend in any rogue I start to play.

You should take up FTL so I have someone to compete against  ;)  After winning a no-shops run whilst everyone else whines the game is all about luck with shops I feel there's little challenge or competition.  It is frighteningly addictive though.  And I'd love to see you writing about ToME, since I've put a lot of work into the lore in the game and pushed for much of its interface polish.

Also Toby the Trapper and Unstoppable remain unbeaten if you feel up to a challenge  ;)

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One person suggested I do a let's play video, and I'm also considering that. I'm nervous about video because I hate when people are stupid dicks to me

Disable Youtube comments!  They contain nothing but misery.  Keep comments to your blog where you'll have a more receptive audience that actually gives a shit about what you're doing.

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Dredmor so far is an excellent gateway drug (: What do you think? Are RLs getting more attention lately?

Yeah, definitely, and Dredmor has been a big part of that.  Though in truth it started with Spelunky several years ago.  Games like The Binding of Isaac and FTL are continuing the trend of pushing the roguelike term, and there's a kinda sense in indie communities that roguelikes are the cool thing right now.

However I do worry it doesn't lead to a lot of penetration into the core roguelike market.  I've seen a lot of people comment that they love the likes of FTL and Isaac, but could never touch the proper stuff.  The basic or absent graphics is such a huge hurdle for so many people.  Which is a shame, because there's a real lack of games in general that focus on the gameplay rather than the graphics.

Darren Grey

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2012, 10:39:26 AM »
  With the success of games like Dredmore, Cardinal and Dwarf Fortress along with the rise in popularity of independent gaming the Roguelike genre is certainly seeing a renaissance.

I still need to get my Roguelike Renaissance talk from IRDC online  :/

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2012, 12:00:55 PM »

I still need to get my Roguelike Renaissance talk from IRDC online  :/

  Yes. You do. Please!

Psiweapon

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2012, 04:29:39 PM »

[SNIP]

  I have a buddy that can't play games anymore unless he sneaks around because his lady thinks it's a juvenile waste of time. That may be a different topic, but the interplay of gender, relationships, social 'norms' and gamer shame is a very interesting one. It's bound to whip up all types of speak first think later comments, but still interesting.

[SNIP]

-Jo

That, dude.

Gamer shame, own and vicarious (like your friend's lady) is at the root here, I think.

If it's any help, my g/f takes interest in few videogames, but when she does she takes them damn seriously (Patrician III, Arcanum, Dwarf Fortress, Bejeweled) to name a few for which she has more bragging rights than I.

The question of making games that the ladies like is kind of moot, since any given person likes whatever games s/he likes for the most irrelevant reasons. I damn know there are games apparently heavily geared towards guys that I don't give a hoot about. Why? Because they're aimed for a certain type of gamer, who happens to usually be male.

Srsly, this is all about what do we think we're supposed to like and therefore feel more open/not ashamed to try.
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Z

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2012, 09:15:23 AM »
Perhaps someone should make a roguelike with a girl protagonist. That'd be neato.

I have an idea to create a roguelike about some problems that women face (a bit like Broken Bottle is about alcoholism). Maybe a 7DRL, but I am not sure whether it would really make sense (from gameplay, psychological and social perspective). By the way, a very active thread, Jo has just posted this and we are already two pages later.

Darren Grey

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2012, 11:48:28 AM »
I once tried thinking up a character-based roguelike like Broken Bottle with a female protagonist and quickly found myself devolving into stereotypes.  I decided in the end to stick to what I know better.

Incidentally, regarding the whole thing of women in maths/science, this is intensely relevant:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2012/09/19/scientists-your-gender-bias-is-showing/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CosmicVariance+%28Cosmic+Variance%29

Double-blind study of same CVs for scientific roles found CVs with female names on them were rated about 20% lower and judged to be worth much lower salaries on average.  Both men and women rated the female CVs lower, showing that gender bias is prevalent throughout society.

Krice

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2012, 12:55:52 PM »

Darren Grey

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2012, 03:05:02 PM »
Well there's been PrincessRL for a while...

AgingMinotaur

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Re: Women & Roguelikes
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2012, 07:03:49 PM »
My idea for a 7DRL: «Motherhood», a fast-paced RL-like platformer – can you keep all your septuplets dry, fed, rested, and not-run-over-by-a-car?!

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