Epilogue Incubator Thread

[Ancient]

I can reliably reach Blobtopolis but have never survived it. For bosses I learned two things. First, go all out on them the moment you encounter one. Second, do not fight both of them at once. Too dangerous. Possibly trap one with cage bomb if you can spare one and then deal with the other boss first. I find The Creator to be stronger than Timeless Voyager. Managed to kill the former only once. I like to start the fight with fire bomb because it obscures sight. It allows to drink buff potions before they come closer to harass you.


I have another suggestion. Disable the green position marker in alchemy menu when someone uses keyboard shortcuts to select ingredients to mix. Having two or three light green choices and one green can get me to make a mistake occasionally.

I found an armor piece that made me look headless. Funny thing. :-) One weird stuff was Medusa's (I think) weapon which turned my body armor to blob armor ... roguelike stuff at its best.

There are floor grates inside campfire rooms. Interact command could potentially do something with them. At the very least make log explain that this way smoke pours in and one cannot do anything about it. I would like to disarm them so that I can enter the room, break grate to prevent more smoke pouring up and retreat behind door. After taking a trip to Minuet's altar I could go back and kick those oozing blobbies around without them having smokescreen. Would make fun possibility if floor grate is generated close to door.

Resplended flametouched throwing knife has so long name it creeps to another line and badly messes up inventory screen. Observed in 1024x768 resolution with full screen mode.

As an aside, I am proud to announce that epilogue is now available for purchase on Desura!

This goes a bit against the bundle but hey ... congratulations! Keep up the good work.

[kraflab]

I can reliably reach Blobtopolis but have never survived it. For bosses I learned two things. First, go all out on them the moment you encounter one. Second, do not fight both of them at once. Too dangerous. Possibly trap one with cage bomb if you can spare one and then deal with the other boss first. I find The Creator to be stronger than Timeless Voyager. Managed to kill the former only once. I like to start the fight with fire bomb because it obscures sight. It allows to drink buff potions before they come closer to harass you.


I have another suggestion. Disable the green position marker in alchemy menu when someone uses keyboard shortcuts to select ingredients to mix. Having two or three light green choices and one green can get me to make a mistake occasionally.

I found an armor piece that made me look headless. Funny thing. :-) One weird stuff was Medusa's (I think) weapon which turned my body armor to blob armor ... roguelike stuff at its best.

There are floor grates inside campfire rooms. Interact command could potentially do something with them. At the very least make log explain that this way smoke pours in and one cannot do anything about it. I would like to disarm them so that I can enter the room, break grate to prevent more smoke pouring up and retreat behind door. After taking a trip to Minuet's altar I could go back and kick those oozing blobbies around without them having smokescreen. Would make fun possibility if floor grate is generated close to door.

Resplended flametouched throwing knife has so long name it creeps to another line and badly messes up inventory screen. Observed in 1024x768 resolution with full screen mode.

As an aside, I am proud to announce that epilogue is now available for purchase on Desura!

This goes a bit against the bundle but hey ... congratulations! Keep up the good work.

The thing I really like about those bosses is that, since they spawn enemies, the fight gets very difficult if you don't take them down quickly.  You also have to decide if it's better to kill the minion or just take down the boss.  Yes, caging one is a very good strategy if you have the option.  I can usually bring them down without too much trouble, and I try to avoid them until the level is mostly clear.  You don't want them to spawn an enemy and then have another enemy wander in, if it can be avoided.  I actually find the enemies that poison you to be the real threat on the 4th floor.  Of course, all of this pales in comparison to the bosses on 6, 7, and 10.  But it helps you nail down some strategies on the way

I'll fix the alchemy thing.

Interesting idea about grate interaction, I'll look into it.

Yes, the medusa blob is probably my favorite enemy, although the necrotic traveler might win out.  Actually, the *REDACTED* guy on the last level takes the cake here.

Ahh, the dreaded rare incredibly long name, I thought I had truncated all of them.  I'll get that fixed

[kraflab]

Ancient:

I updated to 2.02b for Linux, and the game now supports OpenAL audio drivers.  I thought you might like to know in case you want to get PulseAudio off your machine

[Ancient]

Thanks, this is appreciated. I have nothing against pulseaudio. This is one daemon to rule them all which should make things easier to manage. Will try taking off PA and installing OpenAL some time later. I was getting along with ALSA fine up to this point.

By the way, I managed to blow right through Blobtopolis. Went for magic character with Zhangroh as deity and sacrificed every chest. That got me high stats. Selected flat as second trait to get better survivability. With a bit luck in terms of equipment I slew both bosses without using consumables. Not that I had many since my alchemical attempts turned bit unlucky. Finally, my character succumbed to enduring poison. Does it time out?

[kraflab]

Thanks, this is appreciated. I have nothing against pulseaudio. This is one daemon to rule them all which should make things easier to manage. Will try taking off PA and installing OpenAL some time later. I was getting along with ALSA fine up to this point.

By the way, I managed to blow right through Blobtopolis. Went for magic character with Zhangroh as deity and sacrificed every chest. That got me high stats. Selected flat as second trait to get better survivability. With a bit luck in terms of equipment I slew both bosses without using consumables. Not that I had many since my alchemical attempts turned bit unlucky. Finally, my character succumbed to enduring poison. Does it time out?

It does time out.  It also lasts for a decent amount of time, but deals less damage than regular poison.  It is kind of the absolute killer since your stats won't help you against it.  I like this system although perhaps some people will disagree.  Like most negative effects, it is removed when you pray to Minuet, as well as if you use certain abilities that remove negative effects.  A good strategy is to eliminate whatever enemy has given it to you and then either withdrawing to safety or killing any left depending on what is possible and attempting to heal immediately.  Like most problems, consumables can help a great deal with acquiring safety, and that is the danger of Zhangroh

Congrats on getting past the blobs though!  It does get easier

About the 2.02b update.  From some feedback it turns out that you still need to have the libpulse dependencies *installed*, but you do not have to run the daemon, which I guess is an improvement.  The next version I think will completely remove libpulse in favor of openal, since I know some people that cannot/refuse to run pulseaudio, and I at least want everyone to be able to play

[TheCreator]

Good things:

• very robust GUI
• music
• I like the idea of playing as one of the monsters

Bad things:

• no saving
• the keyboard layout is really bad
• random monster names
• too many shooting opponents
• I'm forced to go through tutorials

I'd love to provide more feedback, but I'm afraid that without saving game it is currently impossible. But the general impression is very good. I hope you'll implement saving soon .

[kraflab]

Good things:

• very robust GUI
• music
• I like the idea of playing as one of the monsters

Bad things:

• no saving
• the keyboard layout is really bad
• random monster names
• too many shooting opponents
• I'm forced to go through tutorials

I'd love to provide more feedback, but I'm afraid that without saving game it is currently impossible. But the general impression is very good. I hope you'll implement saving soon .

saving is already implemented for the next release

keyboard reconfig is also implemented for the next release so you can change them to your liking

the "tutorials" are just little popups that you can just hit escape to remove and only show up once.  I guess I can add an option to make them never come up, but the game would be difficulty without that initial knowledge flow in my opinion

"too many shooting opponents" is a complaint I get from people used to standard roguelikes.  almost every creature, including melee ones, have ranged attacks.  learning how to deal with that is the whole point of the game

i like the random monster names and I have gotten good feedback on that, so they will be staying

thanks for the feedback

[kraflab]

Updated to 2.03

Changes:

Added an effect for leveling
Added the ability to Save & Quit
Added the option of automatically sorting the inventory upon pickup
Added the ability for "quick use" of consumables with Alt
Added option of disabling the software cursor
Added target-memory such that spacebar now defaults to your last target
Added 2 more minimap overlay options, accessed by pressing TAB
Added the ability to reconfigure the controls
Changed the minimap block size
Changed the selected item color on the alchemy screen
Changed the #SPOILER#, who is now much more deadly
Fixed an item format error
Fixed an outdated entry in the controls

Take some care with save files.  Likely there are some bugs still hanging around due to the complexity.  If your load crashes, please do send me the save file "save.game"

[TheCreator]

the "tutorials" are just little popups that you can just hit escape to remove and only show up once.  I guess I can add an option to make them never come up, but the game would be difficulty without that initial knowledge flow in my opinion

You can add an option to skip tutorials to the character creation menu. I'd really appreciate it. I hate being forced into tutorials, even if they are "just little popups". Yes, the game is extremely difficult without an introdction to your unique world, your ideas and your rules. But somehow I prefer being completely lost (yet free) to being forced to anything. The rebellious side of my nature, I guess .

"too many shooting opponents" is a complaint I get from people used to standard roguelikes.  almost every creature, including melee ones, have ranged attacks.  learning how to deal with that is the whole point of the game

I understand that and I'm not trying to convince you to throw ranged attacks away. But the difference between annoyance and challenge is very subtle. Challenges can be avoided, while annoyances cannot. If you placed shooting enemies only in *some* levels, it would be perceived as a challenge to get past them. Now they are everywhere, so this is just a turn off.

[Z]

I don't like the mouse interface. In most programs left-click does the default thing, and right-click opens some kind of a context menu or help, or alternate action. And in Epilogue you use items with a right-click.

I would prefer a left-click to use items, and to drop them, either drag them or right-click for a context menu. No idea about right-clicks on the map.

the "tutorials" are just little popups that you can just hit escape to remove and only show up once.  I guess I can add an option to make them never come up, but the game would be difficulty without that initial knowledge flow in my opinion

They are not little popus, but huge pages of text that you have to read because it seems that you would miss something otherwise (and I do not remember some details anyway). And they are indeed annoying. I prefer to read such info when I feel that I am missing something, not when the game thinks it should show me a page of text.

Maybe the first note should be a big welcome and an information about the notes themselves (hey, these notes explain the game. If you prefer to learn yourself, or forget something, you can also get all this information by pressing H, and disable them by [...]).

[kraflab]

I don't like the mouse interface. In most programs left-click does the default thing, and right-click opens some kind of a context menu or help, or alternate action. And in Epilogue you use items with a right-click.

I would prefer a left-click to use items, and to drop them, either drag them or right-click for a context menu. No idea about right-clicks on the map.

the "tutorials" are just little popups that you can just hit escape to remove and only show up once.  I guess I can add an option to make them never come up, but the game would be difficulty without that initial knowledge flow in my opinion

They are not little popus, but huge pages of text that you have to read because it seems that you would miss something otherwise (and I do not remember some details anyway). And they are indeed annoying. I prefer to read such info when I feel that I am missing something, not when the game thinks it should show me a page of text.

Maybe the first note should be a big welcome and an information about the notes themselves (hey, these notes explain the game. If you prefer to learn yourself, or forget something, you can also get all this information by pressing H, and disable them by [...]).

On the contrary I can't think of a game I've played where right-click wasn't the method of equipping/using items.  Same with attacking, where left-click is usually a "Select" option and right-click is the action.  Context menus slow everything down so I don't see the advantage there.  I had dragging for dropping at one point but, like context menus, I realized just clicking was much faster.

I'm pretty sure the initial popup already describes what's going on, and indicates that all the information is in the help pages if you want to check there later on.  I also don't see how something can be annoying when you can just close it, especially since you only have to deal with it once.  It's not like real annoyances in the roguelike genre, like having to tap space to scroll thru messages upon every attack I tried to keep them concise, and include only what I felt was really necessary.  Most of the systems in Epilogue are very different from genre norms so someone who doesn't read the popups will not know how healing works, or fatigue, or lunging, etc.  I think then that not reading the popups will severely hinder one's enjoyment of the game, which is why they are there in the first place.  They also pop up exactly when you need them, which is much better than waiting until you think you need them.  I.E. a fatigue popup occurs when you get tired, and the healing popup occurs when you get to the point where you can heal.  I think this is better than just letting the player fall asleep and leaving them in a state of confusion, similarly with healing.  However, I agree that there should be a way to disable them, as I mentioned before, in the case that someone prefers to explore in their own way.

This is really a general problem of roguelikes I suppose.  If you read everything at the beginning and pay close attention then you will save yourself a lot of time in the long run, but most people aren't patient enough to do that.  If you feel there is a more concise way for me to get this information across then let me know, but at any rate most people find the popups useful.

Edit:
I have added this to the first note:
More of these notes will show up as different game mechanics come into play.  You can disable the notes at any time in the options if you prefer to be on your own.

[Z]

In popular non-game software (such as web browsers and operating systems), left-click and right-click work as I mentioned. Left-click is the default action, and right-click opens a context menu.

Same in Battle for Wesnoth (which has only a map, no inventory): left-click to move and attack, right-click for context menu. Most of the options from context menu except one are useful only in rare special circumstances. I think you intend to avoid having extra options, so there is no need for a context menu. That's good (well, it has its upsides and downsides, actually).

I have checked Diablo II and Dungeons of Dredmor, and on one hand you are right, but on the other hand, there are important differences which make Epilogue confusing for me, while these games are not. Left-clicking an item initiates a movement. This movement can be used to equip stuff. Right clicking is only for using consumables (which is done rarely), so I left-click most of the time. I try to do the same in Epilogue, to equip another item, but it works differently: the item is dropped. I have to fix the mistake: move the mouse, left-click to pick it up (and it will usually appear not in the same place as it was before the whole process), move again, right-click to use.

I see that your one-click-drop interface is faster for experienced players, but it is annoying and confusing for me.

Also, in all three games mentioned above, left-clicking on the map does movement, attacking, and other usual things (talking to NPCs, opening doors, whatever). Is there a reason why you cannot have left-click on map do the usual thing in most cases?

They also pop up exactly when you need them, which is much better than waiting until you think you need them.  I.E. a fatigue popup occurs when you get tired, and the healing popup occurs when you get to the point where you can heal.

No, they do not. I have found a campsite, clicked on it, and it disappeared. Some time later, the popup explaining fatigue occured. Apparently I have wasted a campsite... The healing popup would usually occur in the middle of a battle (at least it did when I tried). I would prefer to finish the battle first, rather than read about healing. Theoretically I can close it, but I would not, because I expect it to be important.

[kraflab]

Also, in all three games mentioned above, left-clicking on the map does movement, attacking, and other usual things (talking to NPCs, opening doors, whatever). Is there a reason why you cannot have left-click on map do the usual thing in most cases?

They also pop up exactly when you need them, which is much better than waiting until you think you need them.  I.E. a fatigue popup occurs when you get tired, and the healing popup occurs when you get to the point where you can heal.

No, they do not. I have found a campsite, clicked on it, and it disappeared. Some time later, the popup explaining fatigue occured. Apparently I have wasted a campsite... The healing popup would usually occur in the middle of a battle (at least it did when I tried). I would prefer to finish the battle first, rather than read about healing. Theoretically I can close it, but I would not, because I expect it to be important.

Left click on the map does do the usual thing in most cases.  What exactly are you referring to?  It examines altars, disarms traps, moves, opens/closes doors, uses fountains etc.  It cannot attack because of the way items work in epilogue.  You may for instance want to walk to the left, but if you "act" on that tile with a lunging weapon equipped you will lunge to the left.  Right-click is tied to weapon use, so it will use your weapon in most cases, such as applying buffs onto yourself, so I use it for interaction only when there are two possible ways of interacting (for example examining or using a campsite or an altar).

The fatigue note pops up when you get to i think 50% fatigue, which is generally a good point to rest at.  It doesn't show up at campsites, which perhaps it should. That being said, losing a campsite is rather a small issue.  The healing popup likewise pops in when you get the red level of health.  Again I think you are right that I should have it pop in only once you are out of battle, but since it also directs you to use health potions (which you will likely only do during battle) I think the timing is ok.  Perhaps I can make a small notice on the screen that let's you know there are messages waiting and you can open them when you are ready.

[TheCreator]

Actually I do like those popups. They are very neat and clear. It's only the time they appear on the screen that is so inappropriate. It's not wise to present so much information at the beginning, because most people cannot possibly memorize all of it. They will feel overloaded with all that stuff. I think that the perfect solution would be something like context help. Example: you step on an alchemical ingredient, you press the Help button and a popup about alchemy is displayed. Of course, this would not always be accurate, for instance if you step on an ingredient and a weapon laying on the same cell, you won't be sure whether to display popup about alchemy or about weapons. But you probably catch the idea: present information only when it is actually wanted, not everything at once.

[Z]

Left-click examines altars? Why not examine altars with mouse-over, and pray with left-click (as it works in the rest of the game)?

Disarm traps: well, in this particular case, I would assume that left-click moves into a trap...

Lunging: you are right, you need another click to use lunge when you are not targetting enemies. But when clicking on enemies, I think that we can assume that we want to attack them.

Why is potion usage a two step process (you first select a potion, then you click on the map to use it)?

Overall, the mouseover popups should tell you what happens when you left-click and right-click on stuff. This way, you will be able to remove some information from the tutorial popups, making them more concise and understandable.