PRIME 2.0

[kraflab]

  Hey I was going to give some feedback on the interface, but I expect a bunch to change in the tile version so I'll wait. You have enough to figure out right now I think, and any feedback might end up being irrelevant.

  Good luck in the coding Ancient.

same!

[Ancient]

  Hey I was going to give some feedback on the interface, but I expect a bunch to change in the tile version so I'll wait. You have enough to figure out right now I think, and any feedback might end up being irrelevant.

What applies only to ASCII interface is going to be used for improving said mode. Even if not useful for SDL port it is still very much relevant and valuable. Also, I expect you (this is aimed at other participants of incubator) to try pure ASCII too. Otherwise the feedback is not complete.

Are waiting you for fully playable tiles build? Sorry, but I have to disappoint you. That could be available mid August at best. More likely late August or early September. :-/ Implementing GUI is simply a ton of work. Moreover only when PRIME will be fully playable with keyboard in SDL mode (like POWDER is) secondary goals like mouse support are going to be tackled. Of course if time permits.

When graphical build is out it is going to be a test build. For example walk-on-map in SDL but with PRIME engine underneath. Receiving comments on that should be no problem because the incubator is initiative of developers for developers. During development more and more feature complete builds will be released.



Here is unannounced 1.9a release with latest known bugs fixed. Ncurses only.

Linux 32bit
Windows
Source

Good luck in the coding Ancient.

Thank you! It is true that a lot of things are still to figure out code-wise. Curses is deeply entrenched in PRIME codebase. Suffice to say it is included in "Global.h" file. Even save/restore routines "know" about ASCII stuff.

[kraflab]

Ok, here are some notes from my first few lives:

Perhaps this is a linux thing, but I had never seen '^D' before in the context of meaning control-D.  Adding a line above the controls in the help log that says ^ means CTRL or something of that nature would be nice.  It wasn't really troublesome to figure out but it might be for some people.

o for open should default to opening the door you are standing by unless there are a lot of doors nearby!

b for fuel barrel is a little non-intuitive for me because letters are monsters and symbols are other things, in my experience.

Similarly, F for fungus seems odd to me because I expect capital letters to be powerful foes.

I would like it if I could use the arrow keys or the numpad to scroll info up and down, rather than it being a one way system.  Sometimes you want to scroll thing up and down.

I would also like it if I auto-attempted to open doors when bumping them.

The game presented me with only the option of shutting down upon death, whereas it would be much better if it brought me back to the main menu.

Only some items told me how much damage they do (chainsaw) whereas most did not give me any specifics (pistol).  Is this because I need to identify them or wield them to know or is all the info not in the game yet?

I really like the ascii colors chosen here and think it works quite well.

In my second life, I started out in an area with only locked keycard exits.  I searched around a while for a secret door out, but unfortunately there appeared to be nothing I could do.

This also happened on my fourth life >_< I can't imagine how I would feel if this happened with a character deep in the game, although I imagine I would likely have lockpicks at that point.  Perhaps there is some mechanic to get past these doors that I am missing.

On my next life I could not find the stairs and I didn't feel like continuing "search: the game" so I gave up.  Perhaps I have just been incredibly unlucky.

Edit: ok I found out that kicking the locked doors can open them, although unfortunately I still tend to get into situations where searching an entire level for a hidden door is the only visible way to find the stairs

[Ancient]

The ^ for control is a ncurses thing. Windows builds have it too. You are right explanation should be added. Or have it read "CTRL+D".

I strongly disagree on automatic choice of targets for open command. This goes against muscle memory. Also, you can target restrained droids with open command. However, implementing bump to interact with doors should make this a non-issue.

Frankly fuel barrel are monsters. Destroying them gives experience and is counted in kill list. Which I presume is even more unintuitive. Well, until boulder-like things get implemented this is going to be this way unfortunately.

Okay, warp fungi will be lowercase f from now on. The same symbol is used for facehuggers but color difference should save players from confusion. Tapioca pudding and vat slime were moved too (S -> s). Contemplating the same for grays (capital G) which are mostly harmless except for dissidents who come heavily armed.

Better scrolling for text is noted. Hmm, wonder why we don't have it already.

Auto open doors on bump is fine idea but I feel that somehow kick on bump would be much more appropriate. Or perhaps bumping should:

1. Try to just open.
2. If above failed try to use key.
3. Use lockpick.
4. Kick down.

Open command tries to do 1, 2, 3. Using the command instead of just bumping would be useful when you are in difficult situation and want to avoid triggering door alarm. Kicking is almost guaranteed to activate alarm if it is installed.

The reason game quits on death is the program is not designed to play in loop. A lot of stuff is global and is initialized in disjoint places. This eventually will be fixed but given amount of refactoring it requires it has been shoved into low priority list. Yeah, quite silly admittedly.

Information on game items is automatically generated from data, so it cannot just be missing. Except flavor descriptions, those are like half done. Yes, you need to identify items to get full information. Knowing type of weapon is enough.

You can shoot doors with weapons. This is sci-fi game after all.

Secret doors are definitely overused. I think the best course of action would be to generate connectivity graph of rooms and only allow leaf nodes not containing stairs to be hidden behind secret doors.


Thank you for feedback! Some food for thought definitely.

[guest509]

  Well I had a few suggestions. I was going to wait, but here they are. I've jotted them quickly while playing, some may be plain dumb.

-Color locked doors according to key card color.

-Is space bar used for anything? Seems like it could be, easy button to hit really.

-'wearing' armor should take off old armor if need be.

-I was kicking all the closed doors, didn't know you could just 'open' them. Is there a good reason that all doors do not auto open and close? Besides the locked ones.

-You can use the same button for wield, wear, use, apply, zap, etc. Just one button to bring up inventory where you can wield, wear, use anything you want. Like the 'character screen' in Diablo. It can also list stats and implants and what not. That one button can be the space bar. Big and central, you hit it and there you have inventory ready to manage, implants ready to activate and powers ready to zap.

-Picking up stuff is wonky. When you stand over something how about a numbered list popping up automatically. Press the number to add to inventory, press (a) to pick it all up?

-Always pick up buckazoids. Or can they be dangerous?

-Control and Shift commands are a bit obtuse for mainstream. How about escape to quit/save and go to the menu.

-Touch Stairs to ascend/descend. Eliminates a button press. Starting on the stairs is fine, but if you walk off then walk back or 'bump' them then you ascend/descend.

-Bump to kick the door, no need extra command then. Works only if all doors are either locked or automatic.

-The help file lists Z or m to zap a mutant power...you only need one button surely.

-',' to pick stuff up is a bit strange don't you think? How about 'g'?

-I LOVE how you shoot in this game. Pick a direction. I totally dig it. Other similar games do an auto targetting deal. I think direction shooting is less realistic and more gamey, and I like it because it involves positioning decisions. Please keep it.

-If you can, try to put all commands on the left hand. So my right hand can stay on the move keys and my left hand can hit everything without leaving home row. This will help when you do a point and click interface too, right hand mouse left hand keys.

-On death it seems like the program ends up quitting instead of sending me back to start a new hero. I want to play a new hero not have to restart the program.

***I guess my main suggestion is to cut down the command set to only a few keys for the left hand.

Help File would be a bit like this:

Space Bar - Bring up inventory Screen. Equip, wield, use, apply, zap, implant...

'd' - Open and close doors. [though all are automatic or locked, you might want to slam one closed on an baddy and not have it open automatically anymore]

'g' - grab things off the ground.

Bump - To attack in melee and bash down doors. Also go downstairs.

'f' - Fire a ranged weapon.

's' - Skill screen.

't' - Throw something.

'w' - Wait a turn, search around.

ESC - Bring up a menu - Save Game, Quit, Restart, Help.


Hope that helps. I know you want it to be more newb friendly. Less keys and doing many things in the inventory menu I think can be a good move.

Good luck Ancient. I'll not be offended if you totally ignore me, I already like the game.

[Ancient]

To take your suggestions by one:

Color for doors is used to denote malfunctions (red) and force fields (brownish yellow). Cyan would still be needed for doors without locks. I guess if we make doors depict their code locks colors malfunctions and force fields will have to change door glyph. Probably this will make to nearest release.

No, space bar is not bound to anything except paging through menus. Yeah, this resource just screams to be used.

Wearing jumpsuit takes care of swapping coats in and out already so swapping any piece of armor is logical step forward.

-I was kicking all the closed doors, didn't know you could just 'open' them. Is there a good reason that all doors do not auto open and close? Besides the locked ones.

Yes, if we made all doors automatic game difficulty early would increase too much. Right now you can shut a door to keep a swarm of tribbles away. Creatures without hands will not open them allowing you to swap weapons and armor, heal and use consumables safely. Bump to open a door (open includes unlocking it or applying a lockpick) mechanic is in implementation phase so that should make things smoother.

-You can use the same button for wield, wear, use, apply, zap, etc. Just one button to bring up inventory where you can wield, wear, use anything you want. Like the 'character screen' in Diablo. It can also list stats and implants and what not. That one button can be the space bar. Big and central, you hit it and there you have inventory ready to manage, implants ready to activate and powers ready to zap.

If I am not mistaken you talk about Diablo 1 interface here. This is the only Diablo I am familiar with so if this is wrong please correct. Darren also asked for similar thing on rgr.dev. So, another vote for object-verb interface on opening inventory. You will still need to specify what do you want to do with chosen item though. No "default action" stuff is going to work. At least we have no idea how to integrate it since large quantity of game objects have two to four sensible actions that can be done to them.

Comma to pick up seems very natural to me. That is because I grew up on many old roguelikes where it was quite common. I remember 'g' for get in DoomRL though. Numbering for items on ground is interesting. Most likely picking all items would be bound to asterisk or tab because a for apply is common action.

Buckazoids have weight. Picking them up may cause you to become encumbered which is bad. Question is why we have them weight something. Maybe it is just realism in which case we can scrap it and make them automatically add to your account.

Escape for rare commands like meta actions. More people might realize we have options to set that way. Good idea.

I am against the stair thing. At least not until we place them inside walls. That would make stairscumming a bit more difficult because to leave one would have to step away and step back. Feels silly. I think current way feels more consistent but a prompt telling you the key to descend will be given after stepping on stairs.

Bump on door will open, unlock and pick lock in this order. Maybe it will kick if nothing else is available but there is problem when you have cards that *might* fit into the door but the character does not have enough information to be sure.

-The help file lists Z or m to zap a mutant power...you only need one button surely.

I was going to remove Z but in comments I found the reason for its existence. It is a key on left side of QWERTY keyboard so it was allowed to stay.

-I LOVE how you shoot in this game. Pick a direction. I totally dig it. Other similar games do an auto targetting deal. I think direction shooting is less realistic and more gamey, and I like it because it involves positioning decisions. Please keep it.

Thank you! We also enjoy it. Especially with railgun on hand. At least until there is enough slugs.

I commented on the quit on death thingy in reply to Kraflab. Yes, I am ashamed of it but at the same time feel still too lazy to fix it because it requires surprisingly large amount of checking to do.

About your key proposal. I think there will be another key layout made. d for doors sounds right because it also fits as d for droid. Open command can interact with restrained droids too. As for blocking an automatic door you can use gauss ray to destroy the electronics responsible for automatic opening and closing. Then it will act like an ordinary door.

Ah, another thing. We roguelike developers are ever-hungry for feedback. Thus getting ignored is highly unlikely. :-D

[guest509]

  Cool. You seem to understand everything I said. I thought maybe i'd be too confusing.

  Can't wait for the new release. I'll give more feedback then, no problem.

[Z]

Apparently the order of linking matters, I had to change

Code: [Select]

c++ -g -o $(PROGRAM) $(LDFLAGS) $(LIBS) $(OBJS)
to

Code: [Select]

c++ -g -o $(PROGRAM) $(LDFLAGS) $(OBJS) $(LIBS)

in the Makefile. Curses functions were not recognized otherwise.

I find it annoying that there is apparently no way to exit the game from the initial questions (I started it and then decided to try to run it through NotEye instead), and also that after pressing "?" I have to see all the three pages even if I found what I wanted on the first one.

Just the first impressions, for now

[Z]

Some more:

- the "?" screen should be improved: it should be possible to read the manual via it (or at least be notified of its existence), and also the keys should be categorized somehow

- the source package includes Ancient's highscores and configuration, it should not (it did not ask me about my preferred key layout)

- I don't like how the game keeps a part of the old screen when displaying a new one, for example stats and the left part of the screen are still displayed when I am looking at the inventory. And when I am looking at the description of some item, it is even worse "I can see "ex 13" which is useless). IMO this is confusing (at least without window frames). If I wanted to look at my stats while selecting items, I would rather escape the item selection menu.

- Some screens (e.g. inventory) say that I can use "<" for the previous page, ">" for the next page, "^" for the first page. Arrows seem to do nothing (or do something that I don't understand), they should (actually I thought that these signs were meant to represent arrows). Maybe lowercase versions (",", ".") should work as well. Why not make them configurable?

- If I remove my config and then reload a saved game, it will accept no keys (and I have to kill it). It should ask me about the keymap instead. Apparently likewise if I do not answer anything when asked about my preferred key layout.

- The menu shown after death is better than in classic roguelikes, but still far from perfect. It should be a single choice menu which restarts itself if the user wanted to see something to let them make another choice. I also think that displaying the highscores should be optional.

[Z]

- If I pickup an item and it is assigned, say, "p", and I access Inventory and press "p", and it is on the second page, then it does not show

- I would prefer the list of items to be displayed automatically, I usually don't remember the letters

- "electronic gizmos" and "grenades" should have more names; and Geiger counters are rather obvious once they click, aren't they? I think they should auto-identify then

- floppy disks seem anachronistic (memory cards?)

[getter77]

- floppy disks seem anachronistic (memory cards?)

...

Feature bloat request:  Do we really want to live in a crazed futuristic and referential Roguelike without Laser Discs somehow being a thing?  Anachronism with wild abandon!   

[Z]

I think that several characters are unused, there is no need to use "+" both for doors and implants.

It is very hard to understand how radiation works. New players killed by radiation won't know what actually killed them. Maybe it would be a good idea to give more details in the infos about characters killed by radiation (something like "radiation traps: 40% background: 30% inventory: 30%").

[Ancient]

Small update: display stuff is done by interface while deciding what to display is in the engine. I broke some features during this but this should not be hard to fix. I haven't touched most issues you have mentioned yet.

Makefile has been changed, thanks. Would you mind telling me what version of gcc you use?

Yes, initial game stuff is bizarre.

Kraflab also requested we get real facilities for viewing longer chunks of texts. Several things could use them: diagnosis screen, lore, help and probably more.

Sources usually lack all the user configuration stuff. It was left in by mistake, I apologize. Forgot to call one makefile command.

- I don't like how the game keeps a part of the old screen when displaying a new one, for example stats and the left part of the screen are still displayed when I am looking at the inventory. And when I am looking at the description of some item, it is even worse "I can see "ex 13" which is useless). IMO this is confusing (at least without window frames). If I wanted to look at my stats while selecting items, I would rather escape the item selection menu.

This is Angbandish interface design. I agree there is usually no benefit in this. However, when you bring up the skill screen it is good to see your speed change when you invest skill points in haste ability.

- Some screens (e.g. inventory) say that I can use "<" for the previous page, ">" for the next page, "^" for the first page. Arrows seem to do nothing (or do something that I don't understand), they should (actually I thought that these signs were meant to represent arrows). Maybe lowercase versions (",", ".") should work as well. Why not make them configurable?

Both '.' and ',' are assigned to special functions within those screens. Arrows are not being read correctly. Menus actually have their own key recognition routine which does not handle complex keys (arrows among them) at all. This is source of the weird stuff you experienced when pressing those.

What do you mean configurable? Allow to redefine all special keys of menu?

- If I remove my config and then reload a saved game, it will accept no keys (and I have to kill it). It should ask me about the keymap instead. Apparently likewise if I do not answer anything when asked about my preferred key layout.

Sigh. Another flaw of menus floats out. Those menus should have implemented the option "do not accept invalid input". It looks like loading a game dodges configuration check. This is bad.

- The menu shown after death is better than in classic roguelikes, but still far from perfect. It should be a single choice menu which restarts itself if the user wanted to see something to let them make another choice. I also think that displaying the highscores should be optional.

All right. See highscores will be an option in this menu.

- If I pickup an item and it is assigned, say, "p", and I access Inventory and press "p", and it is on the second page, then it does not show

If you know the item is bound to "p" why you open the inventory? Will fix nonetheless.

- I would prefer the list of items to be displayed automatically, I usually don't remember the letters

In what cases? Because there are some commands where *usually* you want a subset of items. Sometimes you want the full inventory though. This makes it hard because I would need to decide whether giving full list of stuff is better. In the cases where you would want whole inventory players could not realize there is option of choosing from full set of items.

- "electronic gizmos" and "grenades" should have more names; and Geiger counters are rather obvious once they click, aren't they? I think they should auto-identify then

If you have gotten geiger counter to click and stay electronic gizmo at the same time you have found a bug. Please list steps to achieve that.

We have only three electronic gizmos so flavor names seemed unnecessary. Should be quite useful for grenades though. I think Xenocide style names would fit best. For example "black plastic egg", "small metal ball", "small ball with handle", "short stick with switch".

Yes, floppies are anachronistic. Prime laughs at its own science fiction-ness this way. Wait till you find buggy floppy disk of reformat and old DOS "Abort, retry, fail?" jumps out at you. If something is to be done about that it is adding compact laser discs like Getter suggests.

Up to now '|' and '"' were unused. These will be respectively closed door with force field and open malfunctioning automatic door. Implains could use something else. (Semi)colons are unused too.

Seems we need help on radiation somewhere because I have no idea what

(something like "radiation traps: 40% background: 30% inventory: 30%").

is supposed to mean.

You get radiated through some actions. There are messages when this is happening. Usually these are subtle. When radiation sickness kicks in either you remedy it or wait till your contamination levels drops enough for your organism to recover. Waiting works only if you are not being radiated further.

[Z]

Makefile has been changed, thanks. Would you mind telling me what version of gcc you use?

gcc version 4.6.3 (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.6.3-1ubuntu5)

What do you mean configurable? Allow to redefine all special keys of menu?

Yes... I think it would be useful to redefine special keys. But probably not necessary.

If you know the item is bound to "p" why you open the inventory? Will fix nonetheless.

To get its description.

- I would prefer the list of items to be displayed automatically, I usually don't remember the letters

In what cases? Because there are some commands where *usually* you want a subset of items. Sometimes you want the full inventory though. This makes it hard because I would need to decide whether giving full list of stuff is better. In the cases where you would want whole inventory players could not realize there is option of choosing from full set of items.

I think it would be the best to show the filtered list by default, and allow pressing "*" to show the full list (and display this "*" option on the screen, so players will realize that there is such an option). By the way, "*" and "?" require a shift, which is a bit cumbersome.

If you have gotten geiger counter to click and stay electronic gizmo at the same time you have found a bug. Please list steps to achieve that.

This happens whenever I get it to click. I have checked the sources and it seems that I need to name the Geiger counter correctly (BTW should not it be capitalized?) while it is clicking to identify it.

We have only three electronic gizmos so flavor names seemed unnecessary.

On the other hand, they are all quite common objects, so you are quite likely to find, say, three of them. And then you want to know if two have the same type (especially if you don't know yet that they are quite easy to recognize).

Up to now '|' and '"' were unused. These will be respectively closed door with force field and open malfunctioning automatic door. Implains could use something else. (Semi)colons are unused too.

I think I have not seen "_", "-", "%", "`", and ",". But maybe I just have not found these yet, or do not remember.

Seems we need help on radiation somewhere because I have no idea what

(something like "radiation traps: 40% background: 30% inventory: 30%").

is supposed to mean.

I meant that it would be nice to know what caused the radiation sickness in your case. One way of doing that would be to count the number of units of radiation from each source, and display these numbers on the dead character's diagnostic screen.

Some new things: most keymaps display "In default keymap these are '5' and 'g'", this is unclear in the default keymap, and useless in other keymaps. A newbie might have problems to rest in place for a long time. ADOM allows to press "5" to rest, and "w5" to long rest, and these do not work in PRIME with ADOM keymap ("w." works, but is awkward).

[Z]

Melnorme claims to have a power to detect quality of floppy disks, but I don't see any results. Using this power on ray guns tells their number of charges, but it does not identify empty ray guns.