Author Topic: Roguelike Incubator  (Read 48960 times)

Darren Grey

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 01:20:20 PM »
I would suggest a separate sub-forum on RogueTemple (we all have access already, and a pubic forum invites normal players to join in on discussion), with a thread on each game, and an impulse for everyone to update by the end of the month and to critically analyse someone else's work by the end of each month.  You may not succeed every month but you can at least try.

Focus should be on games with releasable material.  Might be buggy and incomplete, but it needs to be playable.  Open source and cross-platform is not required, but should be encouraged as it makes for easier feedback.

Every game must have goals on what it's trying to be, in terms of scope, novelty, desired content, etc.  Of course we can suggest to each other a change of goals.

Emphasis on constructive criticism and suggestions for improvements.  Can include suggestions for cutting, adding or editing material or mechanics.  Devs should also highlight the goods things in the works, so that these aspects are preserved through the update process.

Membership should be open really, with the caveat that if you don't review other people's games then they're not likely to review yours.  Operate on a quid pro quo basis.  We can keep a Google Spreadsheet to tally who has reviewed what which months and determine if some people aren't pulling their weight, or if some games are getting too much attention at the expense of others.

As a developer looking at other people's works is always great (I always get loads of new games ideas from judging the 7DRLs), and having devs look at your work can provide some very insightful feedback.

As a near term aim getting a package of polished games for ARRP would be excellent.

I would like to formally submit Rogue Rage to this process.  It is currently incomplete but very playable, and I'll look to get a more complete build ready before we properly start this.

mariodonick

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 01:43:35 PM »
I second the subforum idea, it is much easier, and maybe someone who is able to create such a forum can do this.) I also agree to the spreadsheet idea. Simple and easy.

I think the first post of a game's thread should have a clear structure, so everybody looking in this thread can see the current state. Thus, each author has to take care of keeping the first post up to date. More detailed progress information and replies to criticisms should of course be in the resp. places in the threads.

For example for LambdaRogue, I would start my post in a way like this:

Title: LambdaRogue - The Book of Stars (LR:TBS)
First release: 2006
Updated: May 27th 2012
Version: 1.6.3

Available for: Windows, Linux, MacOS Lion
Download: (link)

Short description: (max. 3 short sentences describing background and goal for the player)

Developer's goals: (some points the dev want to achieve, in my case: create a roguelike with detailed story and in-game quests; combine traditional roguelike UI with MMORPG-inspired UI; game mechanics focused on quick fights and item collection)


Somehow like this.

Postings with criticism should be stated very free, as each player has another style of expression. But the postings should clearly state which version was tested, and maybe also some technical things (such as OS).
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

Darren Grey

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2012, 01:56:24 PM »
A good format. I'd also add "known problems" and "feedback desired" to help those reviewing know where the dev's current efforts are focused.

mariodonick

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2012, 02:33:48 PM »
Yes, this is useful, too.

Maybe someone (getter77? slashie?) can create that subforum and write an announcement for the roguetemple news (Michal?).
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

Darren Grey

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2012, 03:44:28 PM »
I'll bring this up at IRDC too.

mariodonick

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2012, 03:47:06 PM »
That's good. (Oh, IRDC ... I wish I could take part. I try each year, but don't have the money to travel. Perhaps next IRDC should be in Germany again *g* )
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

mariodonick

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 07:33:56 PM »
So, what does twpage think about this?

And should we do this and initiate this, or will this thread and idea be forgotten?
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

Darren Grey

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2012, 11:13:33 PM »
It will not be forgotten!  I brought it up at IRDC and there was a lot of positive thought about it.  We just need to pester Slash or getter to set up the forum and get started.

getter77

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2012, 11:51:02 PM »
slash would be the one I think as such powers are not mine to wield.
Brian Emre Jeffears
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mariodonick

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2012, 07:42:34 AM »
It will not be forgotten!  I brought it up at IRDC and there was a lot of positive thought about it.  We just need to pester Slash or getter to set up the forum and get started.

Sounds great! :) Hope you all have a good time at IRDC.
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

Krice

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2012, 06:45:19 AM »
You guys don't seem to realize that we don't need forums or "incubators" to create games. I think it's going to be something like "deviantart for roguelike developers" where everyone is nice to everyone. It's possibly the worst that can happen.

JeffLait

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 08:42:01 AM »
A sub forum... how is that different than early development feedback?  Except maybe we add some karma system for people to game/cry about?

The original proposal seemed bolder.

There should be no diffusion of responsibility.  The people in a cabal should feel beholden to each other to test and produce.  This ties into the branding idea - the set of games produced by a cabal are in some ways a product of the cabal as a whole, so each member should want to require those games to be good enough to represent them!  As I said, a sign of success is if games within the cabal are killed/not released as they do not pass muster!  If this doesn't happen, you just have a what Krice rightly fears.

This is why it is an essentially elitist proposal.  "Serious" is a serious word.  Think of it more of a busking troupe, each member of a troupe develops their own act, but the troupe as a whole does not want shoddy acts!

Why it is not wholly elitist is because there is no monopoly on the idea of forming a such a team.  Any group of devs can form a cabal at any time for any duration mutually agreed upon.

I really think roguelike development suffers for not being team activities.  There are certainly teams, but they seem the minority.  So I understood this idea to be one of trying to leverage the advantages of team development but without actually trying to get a bunch of developers to agree on a single game.

I guess the first stage is for people to self identify with serious projects that they think they could get somewhere with by ARRP?  Then within that group people can decide if there are subgroups that want to band together.

It's a short timeline, so I'll have to do some thinking to see if I have a viable path to join such a group or not.

mariodonick

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 10:23:04 AM »
A sub forum... how is that different than early development feedback?  Except maybe we add some karma system for people to game/cry about?

The original proposal seemed bolder.

There should be no diffusion of responsibility.  The people in a cabal should feel beholden to each other to test and produce.  This ties into the branding idea - the set of games produced by a cabal are in some ways a product of the cabal as a whole, so each member should want to require those games to be good enough to represent them!  As I said, a sign of success is if games within the cabal are killed/not released as they do not pass muster!  If this doesn't happen, you just have a what Krice rightly fears.

Yes, Jeff, and the proposed subforum(s) for this group(s) would be the place where things you suggest take place. It's easier to start this here on RL than wasting time and motivation by setting up own websites, forums, etc.

But I'm not sure if the goal is clear.

I see the goal as "Individuals develop their games and agree on giving detailed feedback to the other individual's games. They release their games together at a certain point in time, but it is still clear who from the team is responsible for which game."

When reading your post, I get the feeling that you'd like to have it in a way that ultimately breakes down to "1 team, 1 game".


Edit: It's not only "1 team, 1 game" vs. "1 team, several games", but also about "creating NEW games" vs. "also improving existing games".
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 10:43:13 AM by mariodonick »
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

twpage

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2012, 05:23:40 PM »
Nice to see this idea has gained some traction! Obviously I brought it up for a reason. I do like Jeff's take on it, though. This IS a somewhat elitist proposal, but not in a bad way. The "cabal" is indeed beholden to each other. It should at MOST be 4-6 games, I think. A sub-forum would be great but I think the majority of it could be done over e-mail, chat, google docs, etc. The sub-forum would allow others not in the cabal to participate, at least with the playing and testing, and watching us fail miserably. ;)

So, Darren is in. Obviously, I am in. Who else? Drop me a message here.

- Todd

mariodonick

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Re: Roguelike Incubator
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2012, 06:23:07 PM »
As I said, I am (basically) in, too -- but first (as you're the one who brought up the idea and should organize it :D ) please clarify what exactly the cabal now will be:

1. Individual developers working on individual games, giving input and feedback to each other?
2. Teams, where each team creates one game?
3. Both is possible?

??
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG