Roguelike Incubator

[Darren Grey]

Slash did after I prodded him on Facebook (the best way to get in touch with him lately).  I'll get some starter threads up.

[twpage]

I registered "andMyAt.com" because it was super nerdy and made me laugh.

I like the enthusiasm! And Darren's site looks like a good start. I also have webspace that I'm not really using and am happy to host downloads, or put up a site down the road. (I did http://roguelikechallenge.appspot.com/)

While I was not originally considering open source, I'll think about it. Since I am doing web-based technically all of the javascript/html is "open" anyways, but not the server side stuff. However, I think it does send a nice message when you can stick "100% open" on there.

Thanks guys!

- Todd

[Darren Grey]

I've also got plenty of server space I can make use of thanks to a friend (that's where all the Roguelike Radio eps are at the mo).

I'm not too keen on the "and my @", but whatever makes you laugh 

I suppose we could get into semantics of what you call open, but I'm not sure why you wouldn't offer it open anyway, licensed under GPL v3 or similar (protects your IP, allows you to commercialise in future, etc).  It's more in the roguelike community spirit to be 100% open, and it's a nice one-up on every other bundle out there.

I also like the "100% free" with donations to charity thing, since other free indie bundles have clearly been thin veils for donation requests.  I want it to be clear that we're releasing serious, polished games for the sake of the games themselves.  People can have donation links on their own personal sites, but the only such link on the main site will be to some standard charity (with a little tracker for our project to see how much we encourage people to donate, so we can feel all warm and fuzzy inside).

[twpage]

Agreed. I'm not interested in making money. I think asking for donations at this point is obviously a little premature, but I like the idea of doing that down the road. The obvious one is Child's Play, but the humble indie bundles have that well-covered. I'm sure there are plenty of others out there worthy of consideration.

As for open source... it's nothing against it, philosophically. It's more just that I don't want to have to maintain clean code.

[Darren Grey]

No one actually looks at the code    And those clever enough to see it's not clean might offer tips of how to improve it.  Plus it's good for development in general.  Others can learn from it, however bad it may be, and it can help with debugging during the development process.

[twpage]

Hey, I do too look at the code!!

That one time.. with Brogue.

Yeah...

So who else do we got?

[mariodonick]

Regarding the dontation thing: I already ask for donations since some months at LambdaRogue's websites, just because creating all the graphical stuff costs rather much money. However, obviously so far nobody seems to think that it's worth it But I'm glad I can keep my own donation link.

[Ancient]

PRIME could enter the incubator but first two things need to be sorted out. I need to discuss it with Psiweapon *and* 100% accessible needs to be redefined. I think multitude of keys is Darren's definition of bad UI, not the real problem. I am not going to discuss my stand here, refer to recent rgrd discussion why I think such view is fundamentally flawed.

If the accessibility thing stands as it is I back out. Not going to compromise my game for misnamed "pick up and play". Less keys does not a better game make.

Oh, if you need some announcement written on the front page of RogueTemple when incubator lifts off I can do that. Remember Darren also has posting privileges.

[Z]

Wow, a huge rgrd thread - thanks for pointing it out, Ancient. I'll note some interesting points here.

In my opinion HyperRogue II was a "truly accessible ASCII game" (HyperRogue III has ASCII as option only), agreeing with most of Darren's points, but somehow Game Hunter did not notice that you can get tooltips by mousing over stuff.

Ancient and Darren don't remember what game informs you how to use stairs when you step on them. Just for the record: Hydra Slayer has this, thanks to Ancient, as it was actually his suggestion, and I think he suggested it only because Hydra Slayer uses "g" for "go" instead of ">".

I wonder whether there is some cultural difference. I mean, Darren's experiences with showing roguelikes to newcomers are quite different than that of Ancient, Sheep, or me. Also roguelikes seem to be much more popular in Poland than in UK...

I have to say that Dungeons of Dredmor has nice traps indeed. Another game with good traps that you can use for your advantage is Spelunky.

As for the first bundle, I do not agree with the notion of freeness used (I think that in an ideal world an artist should be able to get a significant income without being forced to do immoral things such as restricting access to their works, and while practices such as nagging or placing too many ads are immoral and should be discouraged, subtle hints about donations or other ways of supporting the devs are a good thing IMO), I don't like the broad spectrum (Rogue Rage and LambdaRogue seem to be completely different things), and I have no ideas about what to work on (VoI is too large, HyperRogue is too complete, Hydra Slayer could get some usability improvements and minor features but I think that it is too established, and I have no new ideas currently).

[Darren Grey]

PRIME could enter the incubator but first two things need to be sorted out. I need to discuss it with Psiweapon *and* 100% accessible needs to be redefined. I think multitude of keys is Darren's definition of bad UI, not the real problem. I am not going to discuss my stand here, refer to recent rgrd discussion why I think such view is fundamentally flawed.

*downloads PRIME and has a gander*  Um, man, this is quite excellent for interface actually!  There really aren't that many keys.  And the contextual help is very good.  Certainly far better than Nethack and the like.  I would consider this acceptable for the accessibility standard for the bundle.  Just be mindful that there will be suggestions for improvement (first request: make items usable from within the inventory screen - it's frustrating to look at an item to see what it does, then have to go out into the main view to actually do something with it).  Up to you how you want to change the game, but have an open mind to suggestions.

What are your development goals for the game?  It looks quite fleshed out already.

[Darren Grey]

In my opinion HyperRogue II was a "truly accessible ASCII game" (HyperRogue III has ASCII as option only), agreeing with most of Darren's points, but somehow Game Hunter did not notice that you can get tooltips by mousing over stuff.

Because he played with keys    Anyone playing with mouse would have quickly noticed.

As for the first bundle, I do not agree with the notion of freeness used (I think that in an ideal world an artist should be able to get a significant income without being forced to do immoral things such as restricting access to their works, and while practices such as nagging or placing too many ads are immoral and should be discouraged, subtle hints about donations or other ways of supporting the devs are a good thing IMO), I don't like the broad spectrum (Rogue Rage and LambdaRogue seem to be completely different things), and I have no ideas about what to work on (VoI is too large, HyperRogue is too complete, Hydra Slayer could get some usability improvements and minor features but I think that it is too established, and I have no new ideas currently).

What's wrong with a broad spectrum?  Especially for a first bundle I think it's nice to have a range of different scoped games.  If this takes off then future bundles can be more tightly themed.

As for donations, I was envisaging a page which would point out that the devs aren't directly asking for money through the bundle, but with links to their individual sites if people feel strongly enough to donate.  The original idea behind this cabal was just to improve a bunch of games and make them more well known amongst the roguelike community.  It's not like we're somehow losing money through this.  Plus roguelikes have a history of being free and open source - it's nice to emphasise this.

[Z]

As for donations, I was envisaging a page which would point out that the devs aren't directly asking for money through the bundle, but with links to their individual sites if people feel strongly enough to donate.  The original idea behind this cabal was just to improve a bunch of games and make them more well known amongst the roguelike community.  It's not like we're somehow losing money through this.  Plus roguelikes have a history of being free and open source - it's nice to emphasise this.

That's perfect then, but the current wording implies something different: "all donations" means "all donations related to the games in the bundle" not "all donations through the bundle". At least that's how I see it.

[mariodonick]

Ancient and Darren don't remember what game informs you how to use stairs when you step on them. Just for the record: Hydra Slayer has this, thanks to Ancient, as it was actually his suggestion, and I think he suggested it only because Hydra Slayer uses "g" for "go" instead of ">".

In LambdaRogue, the status line also shows which key you should press to interact with the current tile. Very often, it's just ENTER, based on context (Enter for using stairs, Enter for drinking from wells, Enter for using altars etc.)

I wonder whether there is some cultural difference. I mean, Darren's experiences with showing roguelikes to newcomers are quite different than that of Ancient, Sheep, or me. Also roguelikes seem to be much more popular in Poland than in UK...

In computer science, there's an (unfortunately rather small) research field about cultural differences in the use of software. This not only relates to interface (and obvious things like language, color, writing direction etc.), but also to core concepts of software. Google for Gregory Kersten and his team; they published some good papers about this.

In my PhD thesis, I'm taking on this account and observe people how they use software. Not from this well-known perspective we have in usability tests, but from the view of communication science and sociology (Luhmann). Very exciting topic. Roguelikes are actually one example I'm writing about.

[mariodonick]

I don't like the broad spectrum (Rogue Rage and LambdaRogue seem to be completely different things)

I disagree here. I think it's GOOD that the spectrum is broad, because this shows the different directions roguelikes can take, instead of just more of the same. By the way, I also want to encourage Kraflab and his game "Epilogue" to participate. (I suggested this in his latest Epilogue thread). Edit: Okay, Epilogue is commercial and closed-source, so Kraflab won't participate. Pity.

[Z]

Maybe the problem is  just the name. "Roguelike Incubator" suggests that it is for roguelikes early in development, and that's why you should not enter with LambdaRogue, and I should not enter with Hydra Slayer.