Random Realms (general discussion)

[Game Hunter]

I finished play-recording this game a little while ago (you can find the YT playlist here) and I thought it was pretty fun. Lots of different things to get and do, enemies change enough during a single game and between games to keep you on your toes, and the boss fight is definitely something to prepare for. Combined with the varying length and monster difficulty, it's lot a good amount of replayability and variety for newcomers and veterans alike. (Might I even suggest a 5 and 10-floor choice? In those cases the game would have to be rescaled to accomodate, but I think it'd attract a good number of people looking for a quick game.)

There are, however, a number of overlooked details that could be improved, in some cases quite easily. Here are but a few:

• A very obvious feature that stuck out like a sore thumb was the usage of wands. Their ability to deplete charges rather than your mind/soul reserves has great potential, don't get me wrong: the execution (that is, automatically whenever you use a spell of that element) makes it nearly impossible to use them appropriately.
  
  • A simple fix to this is to allow the player to "use" wands in order to turn them on or off: in this way they can be saved for the right occasion (i.e., tons of enemies all at once or the rare-but-powerful types).
  • You may also want to consider changing their name, as a "wand" usually implies that the item itself contains spells rather than reserves. Not really sure of a good name, but something along the lines of "battery" or "focus" is more intuitive.
  • Finally, allowing players to move the charge from one wand to another would be convenient: I'd probably still only allow this to be done for wands of the same element (so that it can be automatic), but it would save on inventory space, of which there is surprisingly little once you get going.
• The spells are a lot of fun, especially because there's so much to do with them. At the same time, however, I find there to be a few general problems with them:
  
  • Some spells are very nearly redundant. Take, for instance, Ice Shield and Fortification: both provide defense to the player and, if you calculate the armor gained per mind power used, they are worth exactly the same (save time cost). Usually in these cases, you'll try to differentiate them more, such as giving Ice Shield more defense per mind power (so that there's a trade-off between instant but costly defense and delayed but efficient defense), or making Ice Shield weak to fire enemies and Fortification (which is Earth element) weak to ice enemies. Ideally they will be very different spells, so you still have a use for both of them as you play the game. The same is true of Soul Search (which detects stairs) and Revelation (which detects stairs in addition to a bunch of other information), and likely a couple other pairs that don't immediately come to mind.
    
    • The Slay and Piercing spells are special offenders here, because I doubt they can be changed all that much in relation to each other. In these cases, you should probably just offer the spells as, literally, "Slay" and "Piercing", then give an additional choice of what kind of spell you want it to be. This gives you more room for other spells while maintaining the same original possibilities.
  • A lot of "lesser" offensive spells are often made obsolete by "superior" ones. Most of this is redundancy (i.e., you're always ultimately "attacking an enemy" or "attacking an area"), and so they can be fixed in the same ways as mentioned above. You could, however, give the player a few offensive spell slots, so to speak, which they can then customize by investing additional spell levels into them. For instance, at the very first level you could let "Beam" be specialized into Light, Gray, or Dark, and "Mind Sling" into Fire, Ice, or Earth. By leveling one of them again, it would add additional effects (fire = extra damage over time, ice = slow, earth = knockback, light = blind, gray = confusion, dark = fear), etc. If you inevitably have the reduce the number of choosable spells on the initial menu, I think that's perfectly fine.
  • The game becomes fairly trivial after collecting certain spells. Mana Feast makes it so that you almost never require food (you can, in fact, gain a very tiny amount of mind power by continually resting and Mana Feasting), Revelation makes exploration nearly meaningless, Rage/Fortification makes physical combat extremely easy...there's other cases but you get the idea. For such spells, it's a good idea to make them come with weaknesses: as a simple example, stat-boosters could drain your other stats, or cause extra hunger, or disable certain actions (raging could make it impossible to cast spells and read, fortification could slow you down or make you unable to move for a time). Balance is a beautiful thing once it's accomplished.
• I think the enemies are done right, although ranged attackers should be more common: that way you have a lot more fighting you at the same time later on. One thing I would like to see, however, are some champison/boss types that drop particularly good gear. It should be an enemy that keeps to its area, so it's entirely up to you in fighting one, but having that "extra challenge" can reduce monotony.
• Potions are usually not very good for the player: the only ones worth keeping around are healing, and a whole lot of the others are plain negative. This led me to prioritize every other item type over potions. Perhaps this is intended (that is, they're really meant to quaff in hopes that you survive a particularly dangerous combat) but I find it fairly boring to constantly come across potions only to find that I rarer ever kept one, especially because there's an early-game heal spell that greatly reduces the need for even the healing potions. Consider removing some of the negative potions and/or adding potions that do what some of the scrolls do (accompanied by removing those scrolls, of course). Throwing potions can be pretty fun, too.
• This is just a bug: since you can't buy anything with a full inventory, you also can't buy food, even though it takes up no inventory space. The same is probably true of arrows, although I never had a need to buy them.

So yeah, there's a lot of room for improvements in the nooks and crannies. The game's plenty fun already, but I think you can make it a TON more enjoyable by tweaking things here and there. I don't believe there needs to be any fundamental mechanic redesigns, save some spell stuff, so it shouldn't be hard to at least try some balancing and pop out a new version for testing. (Also I apologize is this is too wall-of-texty: I'm hoping the list format makes it easier to keep track of ideas.)

EDIT: man, lists are so hard to get right

[getter77]

I'd have to generally agree with the above----definitely a standard bearer in terms of multi-fold procedural generation that can itself be improved as well as the core concepts it has trailblazed.

[guest509]

  Agreed. I really like this game because it is simple but really gets a lot of the replayability through randomization concepts just dead on.

[IBOL]

oh jeez,
i didn't even know this was here [embarassed emoticon]
thanks, will review, take suggestions, and improve.
sorry for thinking you hadn't responded,
i was checking the wrong random realms thread
bob

(ok so i read it, some things will definitely be fixed/changed fairly soon)
- wand = Mana Crystal? is that a good name? and stacking within element is good.
  also 'equipping' wands is a good idea.

- great idea on the 5/10 depth playthrough.
 
- about spells becoming obsolete: they actually do scale up with your level and abilities. granted, kill will always be more powerful than hurt, but higher level spells have an added 'hunger cost' also. i will work on scaling/balancing

- ice shield / fortification: how about this: ice shield increases your defense, but fortification actually reduces the amount of damage you take.

- rage, etc. making rage decrease the other stats is a great idea (also scholarship/divinity) . that way you can't just super-power-up everything.

- will reduce the power of mana-feast, revelation, and healing spells.

- boss monsters are a neat idea also, but will take some work.
 i've always toyed with the idea of "demons" that aren't A-Z but higher, weirder characters. maybe that's a use for them. and they can drop equipment.

[IBOL]

got this done tonight:
- reduced amount of healing from HEAL spell.
- made sun more likely to light additional rooms.
- reduced effectiveness of mana feast
- made rage, scholarship, divinity decrease the other two stats.
- reduced range of revelation spell
- now allowed to buy food & arrows even if inventory is full.

[guest509]

  Dang IBOL that's quick. Hey where do you usually post updates and what not?

  I usually go here for my roguelike news and stuff.

-Jo

[getter77]

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=178942&b=5   This is the release thread where all the action has happened thus far, with each of his projects housed in a separate thread.

[IBOL]

hi,
i will try to post about updates here, and the other rr thread here,
but i get my download ability from TGC, the thread mentioned above
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=178942&b=5
though i might not be able to put anything new there... we'll see...
i'm working on it a while today.

[IBOL]

no actual compiled version yet. i want to tackle some of the larger issues first.
but here's what i got done today:

- changed the name generator some
- reduced range of lava spell
- increased the king's maximum life
- changed the player HP calculation. player will now have less LIFE overall.
- gave higher level monsters more 'points' to use during bestiary creation.
- gave monsters random 'sizes' that effect their starting HP.
- added command [A] - adjust map size. if your computer slows down with large
  amounts of the map displayed, try this. it limits the display somewhat.
- kept "ice shield" as is, but changed "fortification" to actually reduce
  incoming damage. still degrades over time.
- fortification slows you down.
- now see details of the king if you use [m] in the throne room.

[Game Hunter]

wand = Mana Crystal? is that a good name?

That ought to work nicely.

about spells becoming obsolete: they actually do scale up with your level and abilities. granted, kill will always be more powerful than hurt, but higher level spells have an added 'hunger cost' also. i will work on scaling/balancing

I definitely noticed scaling, at least with some spells (Ice Shield and Heal were the most noticeable). Mostly the obsolescence comes with, for example, Beam and Mind Sling having an inferior damage base when compared to Ice Shard or Chill (not sure about the latter, as it's supposed to be low damage), which become inferior in the face of the Piercing spells, which aren't quite as good as Inferno. Many of those single-shot spells, in turn, are inferior to the bow and a good Body stat (to ensure good to-hit), which deals craploads of damage that usually doesn't have to worry about the element of the enemy. Just something to think about.

- rage, etc. making rage decrease the other stats is a great idea (also scholarship/divinity) . that way you can't just super-power-up everything.

I mention this specially at the end of the LP, but restoring your mind/soul through scrolls or leveling can put you above your supposed max reserves: this is a result of having a higher-than-usual mind/soul stat (seen most significantly with Scholarship/Divinity). Based on this, either there's a bug that the player's max reserves aren't updating properly with artificially-pumped stats, or that restoration surpasses the max at times. If I found that the mind/soul stats were more significant for things other than their reserves, I probably wouldn't mind the reduced max, but it's your call.

i've always toyed with the idea of "demons" that aren't A-Z but higher, weirder characters. maybe that's a use for them. and they can drop equipment.

The mighty schwa!

- reduced range of revelation spell

I don't know if stair-revealing happens with Revelation, but I'd make sure to also remove that feature if it's the case. At least, in my time playing I used Revelation for that reason half the time (may have simply ended up getting lucky with it).

- increased the king's maximum life

I'd be careful with this one. In the 15-floor game I played, I found the king a whole lot harder than in the 20-floor game, and I believe it's because the king is pretty constant when it comes to stats. It would be more balanced to scale his HP with the dungeon length, such that the fight is always a difficult (but doable) one. You may even want to consider adding abilities for particularly deep cases: stuff like teleporting and crazy area-of-effect spells change things up nicely when you're fully decked out and can handle it.

- kept "ice shield" as is, but changed "fortification" to actually reduce incoming damage. still degrades over time.
- fortification slows you down.

Sounds like a good change to me, as there's now reason to get both. (Or, in some cases, choose which one you believe to be more valuable.)

I was also thinking about the possibility to give the player benefits for particular "titles". That might be kind of difficult to do, especially because the titles are (at the moment) more of an afterthought: maybe just grant some extra boosts for players that focus on particular stats, like extra regeneration in the appropriate stat, or speed for high Body and better scaling for mind/soul spells. You should focus on the other balancing issues first, though.

[IBOL]

so far monday:
- gave player more HP per character level.
- king can teleport when he is hurt
- 'wands' are now 'mana crystals'. mana crystals of the same type (FISLDG) will 'stack'
- Mana Crystals must be "prepared" [P] (this is like equipping them).
 ( i was thinking of making the crystals explode if their charge goes above 99...something to watch out for...)

next big job:
'demons' , scale to be hard for you, new stats each level, drop good items. don't move far.

yeah, in late game, beam is ok against dark creatures, but otherwise not much.
i'm actually ok with early spells having a degree of obsolescence.

i never actually compared spells to the bow. thanks for bringing that to my attention.

i will definitely scale the final boss to the player's selected difficulty and depth.

revelation now does not reveal the exit. also, soul search gives short-lived monster sense and treasure sense. they are differentiated at least some / not redundant.
also, sould search has a chance to find 'magic stones' . i don't know if any of you have encountered those, but sometimes you have to find enough magic stones to descend from a level.

OK, final monday progress:
"demons" exist, high HP & dmg, their traits are random, very powerful, with ranged attack, and they are guaranteed to drop a magic item.

need to fix a few things and then i will probably get a release version out Tues/Wed

[IBOL]

how would people feel about me putting sound to this? (not music, unless you know of something applicable and free...)
of course there would be the option of not using it, but maybe that's a good idea?

maybe i'll try that...

working on king scaling today, and getting a 5&10 level play option . possibly release wednesday.

[getter77]

Sound is fine by me, especially if optional/adjustable---though I suppose it depends on what is in mind, ie Ambient?  Spell/Attack effects? Creatures? etc.

[guest509]

http://sandbox.yoyogames.com/resources?cat_id=5

  Here is a link to some resources free to use. It's from the Gamemaker site. You can search by 'music' resource. There are a ton of free things there. It can take some time to sort through but maybe you'll find a diamond in the rough.

EDIT: Looks like some might be rips, but many are not.

EDIT2: I'd recommend checking out the "BLOOD" set of music from that link.

-JO

[Game Hunter]

Sounds can be a great way to design an aesthetic for the game, but I wouldn't prioritize it for the upcoming build. It can take a while to figure out what are good sounds (if they're heard often, they shouldn't get annoying; they should provide a rough understanding of what's going on; duplicate sound cases should not be confusing; and so on), not to mention building a sound system that is appealing to the player (how to deal with overlapping sounds, foreground vs. background qualities (or, more generally, distance metric), etc). I'd imagine it's a rather large undertaking, and trying to mix it into what is mostly a rounding-out patch with boss monsters would probably push back the release date by a lot. You may even ultimately decide that sounds don't improve the gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see what you can do with sounds. I am, however, recommending that you delay its construction for a separate release altogether. If nothing else, decide what direction you want your game to go and take the steps necessary to get there.