Author Topic: Dwarf fortress ( 0.40.1 released 7/7 2014)  (Read 32380 times)

hatsack

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 10:10:23 PM »
DF..... I think it's a great roguelike and I would recommend it for everyone.

Psiweapon

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2012, 05:00:34 PM »
I love DF but I think that nobody shor of a savant can learn to play it without outside help and in a reasonable amount of time.

You either need guides or someone to teach you, I went by the below guide on fortress mode (I have very little interest in adventure mode if any)
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requerent

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2012, 03:46:09 AM »
I commit about 48 hours per release of DF. My own personally strategy has developed pretty significantly.

I find that the wide variety of DF's options will suck you into a micromanagement frenzy. However, if you manage to stay strong, there is a very effective approach.

Using the Therapist app, I create a Serf class that has ALL non-quality based skills ticked on (and farming usually- Fishing, Wood Cutting, and Mining excluded). Most immigrants become serfs unless they have a quality-based skill (that is, skills that produce items with quality levels).

Then I set up one permanent squad and cycle all my serfs in 2-3 squads (so that their schedules alternate between training and serfing). All my non-serf units that aren't permanent soldiers become specialists or administrators, that just do whatever it is they're good at.


The dirty part of my strategy comes with the Embark. Now that Bituminous coal nets 8 units of coke, doing a minimalist* steel start-up with a weaponsmith can result in the production of a LOT of steel serrated discs. These babies can have 30k+ trade value. With just the starting ores you embark with, you can buy-out every trade caravan for about 5 years. This effectively means you could spend nearly all of your time building up a military force and laying traps everywhere. You only MIGHT need a fisherdwarf or a herbalist and a few serfs (which have brewing and fish cleaning because they aren't quality skills) to provide a buffer for food and drink if caravans don't bring enough.

*Embark with ores in the following ratios
1 Limonite/Hematite
2 Marble
1 Bituminous Coal

From there, setting up industries is trivial- limited only by the number of serfs you have.


This is more or less the reason why I hate Dwarf Fortress. Once you learn all the tricks, the game is trivial and monotonous. There aren't any dynamic challenges. I embarked to a glacier with 4 biomes of evil and, doing the above strategy, had little trouble mastering all of the threats. All it does is take a lot of time to understand the intuitive methods to fortress design. Once you've learned it, the game itself isn't a ton of fun. You find yourself mundanely prospecting fortress locations and dig-designs. Because the game relies primarily on memorization, entering a state of 'flow' is aggravated by the need to set up all of the micro-components of an industry.

Then again, I'm not a fan of Sandbox games-- unless they have an interesting Narrative. DF has pretty good narrative- Artifact descriptions alone make the game worth playing, but once you understand the game there is little challenge, even in dangerous biomes.

The game itself, however, is very important. Learning how to play it and how to think like Toady is very useful.

kraflab

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 05:12:32 AM »
This is more or less the reason why I hate Dwarf Fortress. Once you learn all the tricks, the game is trivial and monotonous. There aren't any dynamic challenges. I embarked to a glacier with 4 biomes of evil and, doing the above strategy, had little trouble mastering all of the threats. All it does is take a lot of time to understand the intuitive methods to fortress design. Once you've learned it, the game itself isn't a ton of fun. You find yourself mundanely prospecting fortress locations and dig-designs. Because the game relies primarily on memorization, entering a state of 'flow' is aggravated by the need to set up all of the micro-components of an industry.

Then again, I'm not a fan of Sandbox games-- unless they have an interesting Narrative. DF has pretty good narrative- Artifact descriptions alone make the game worth playing, but once you understand the game there is little challenge, even in dangerous biomes.

The game itself, however, is very important. Learning how to play it and how to think like Toady is very useful.

It's really not even as complicated as you say, since building a wall makes your civilization invincible.  The challenge/enjoyment comes from not doing the things that make the game easy.  I find it enjoyable to do forts with specific societies in mind, like economy built solely on sheep herding.

Just curious, have you conquered the HFS?

joeclark77

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2013, 01:14:23 PM »
Are any of you aware of other roguelikes in the same genre as Dwarf Fortress? (I would call it a "settlement simulation" genre, but that's just me.)  I can of course see similarities to other games (the sims, the anno series, etc).  Would be nice to sample a few other takes on the genre, as I plan out my own settlement simulation game.

Holsety

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2013, 02:38:29 PM »
Are any of you aware of other roguelikes in the same genre as Dwarf Fortress? (I would call it a "settlement simulation" genre, but that's just me.)  I can of course see similarities to other games (the sims, the anno series, etc).  Would be nice to sample a few other takes on the genre, as I plan out my own settlement simulation game.

I'm only aware of Goblin Camp, but that isn't being actively developed anymore.
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kraflab

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2013, 07:21:31 PM »
Are any of you aware of other roguelikes in the same genre as Dwarf Fortress? (I would call it a "settlement simulation" genre, but that's just me.)  I can of course see similarities to other games (the sims, the anno series, etc).  Would be nice to sample a few other takes on the genre, as I plan out my own settlement simulation game.

There are some low quality clones, like towns and gnomoria, but to be honest they don't even come vaguely close to touching the level of depth and simulation in dwarf fortress.  There really isn't anything on that level, since most people can't spend their entire lives developing a game :P

tootboot

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2013, 07:30:27 AM »
There are some low quality clones, like towns and gnomoria, but to be honest they don't even come vaguely close to touching the level of depth and simulation in dwarf fortress.  There really isn't anything on that level, since most people can't spend their entire lives developing a game :P

You can probably say a number of not-so-nice things about how unoriginal Gnomoria is (and be completely right), but it hits the mark in a lot of areas Dwarf Fortress doesn't.  

-Robobob puts out a release every week or two
-He squashes bugs on a regular basis
-He listens to community feedback
-He's willing to work on parts of the game that maybe aren't terribly interesting, like improving the user interface and reducing tedium.

Towns is perhaps best not commented about. 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 08:06:49 AM by tootboot »

joeclark77

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2013, 03:01:10 PM »
Eh, I'm not specifically looking for high-quality or low-quality, just alternative takes on the genre that could help me generate ideas (or avoid pitfalls) as I conceive of my own variation.  I had heard of Gnomoria.  Towns looks interesting, thanks.

XLambda

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2013, 07:03:53 PM »
There are some low quality clones, like towns and gnomoria, but to be honest they don't even come vaguely close to touching the level of depth and simulation in dwarf fortress.  There really isn't anything on that level, since most people can't spend their entire lives developing a game :P

You can probably say a number of not-so-nice things about how unoriginal Gnomoria is (and be completely right), but it hits the mark in a lot of areas Dwarf Fortress doesn't.  

-Robobob puts out a release every week or two
-He squashes bugs on a regular basis
-He listens to community feedback
-He's willing to work on parts of the game that maybe aren't terribly interesting, like improving the user interface and reducing tedium.

Towns is perhaps best not commented about. 

I think there's a place for DF-likes in the world. DF is a really complex game with an unmentionable UI, not something likely to appeal to more casual gaming folks. And compared to other games it takes really effin' long to get into it.

That said, people should be honest about ripping off Toady's work. Don't pretend you're coming up with something new.

joeclark77

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2013, 10:41:34 PM »
That said, people should be honest about ripping off Toady's work. Don't pretend you're coming up with something new.

If you check their websites, both of the games mentioned make it very clear that they're borrowing from DF.
Quote from: Gnomoria
For Gnomoria, the biggest influence has of course been Dwarf Fortress.
Quote from: Towns
...we have taken cues from our favorite games. Diablo, Dungeon Keeper, Evil Genius, and even Theme Hospital are in the mix, although an honorable mention must be made to the absolutely gigantic elephant in the room, Dwarf Fortress.

I'm not sure how you'd classify DF.  I've been calling it a "settlement simulator" genre.  It's got a "people simulator" like the Sims, a "supply chain simulator" like the Anno games, a "fortress architecture simulator" and a multi-character roguelike "RPG/combat simulator".  Oh yeah, plus a world generator that actually simulates the geological processes and mineral content shaping the planet up to a couple hundred layers deep. 

I would imagine you could make good games in the same genre without nearly as much complexity.

My (still vague) idea is to do one with a medieval theme, like you're an order of missionaries and crusader knights building a monastery-fort in heathen lands.

XLambda

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2013, 12:01:47 AM »
That said, people should be honest about ripping off Toady's work. Don't pretend you're coming up with something new.

If you check their websites, both of the games mentioned make it very clear that they're borrowing from DF.
Quote from: Gnomoria
For Gnomoria, the biggest influence has of course been Dwarf Fortress.
Quote from: Towns
...we have taken cues from our favorite games. Diablo, Dungeon Keeper, Evil Genius, and even Theme Hospital are in the mix, although an honorable mention must be made to the absolutely gigantic elephant in the room, Dwarf Fortress.

I didn't mean to imply that they don't! :) I just thought people should be fair with crediting their main source of inspiration. I have to admit I'm not familiar with either.

chooseusername

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2013, 02:11:35 AM »
No love for elf treetop city?

joeclark77

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2013, 04:29:07 AM »
No love for elf treetop city?
I'll have to check it out sometime.  I love that the webpage describes it as a Dwarf Fortress parody.

mushroom patch

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Re: Dwarf fortress
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2013, 05:35:12 AM »
Quote
That said, people should be honest about ripping off Toady's work. Don't pretend you're coming up with something new.

This is pretty rich. This is a forum devoted to a genre that is completely derivative by definition -- indeed, a lot of discussion goes into whether new games are enough like the classics to fit within the genre and therefore merit attention as more than just a throwback to the C64 era. The question here isn't "Is it original?" It's "Is it unoriginal enough?"

That said, by any sane definition Dwarf Fortress is roguelike -- it's fantasy roleplaying, with turn based play if the player wants it in terminal graphics. If your fortress goes to hell, there's no recovering it. Adams has moved the ball so far forward with Dwarf Fortress, people are still in denial about it. Developers are talking about building the successor to ADOM or the next iteration of the zangband legacy. They should be thinking about how to incorporate aspects of Dwarf Fortress into more middle of the road roguelikes and how to improve on what Tarn's accomplished with his game, by, yes, straight up stealing mechanics from his game and chewing on them. There's a lot there to be chewed.

Dwarf Fortress is THE development in roguelikes of the last decade. After twenty five years of talking nethack, there has to be something new in the endeavor of wrecking one's GPA despite sitting alone in front of a computer terminal 15 hours a day or we risk losing the next generation to facebook and sex.