Roguelike Radio podcast

[Darren Grey]

We certainly do take topic requests!  Overworlds I'm not sure we'd have much to say much about though.  I haven't seen *any* where they do more than add a little flavour and sense of breadth to the game.  And there are no good examples of procedurally generated overworlds (I'm not even sure they're a good idea).  If you have some specific games you think are worth mentioning let me know.

[guest509]

  I'm thinking of Princess RL right now, but the overworld was static right?

  I wonder why there aren't many, or any, notable procedural overworlds? It seems like you could have a game like the old Zelda set up, where you have to roam around and find the dungeons, maybe a puzzle or key (or key/item) to open the dungeon.

[Darren Grey]

Well procedural overworld is hard to do for a start.  But more importantly you have to look at the point of an overworld.  It's essentially a quest selector, with different areas being harder or having certain requirements (fire temple needs fire resistance, etc).  Make that random and the player finds it hard to judge which areas they should be entering.  And the other aspect of overworlds, adding flavour and a sense of depth, is better achieved with a good hand-designed map.

[guest509]

  Yeah. So it's a bit like the issue with a good platformer or a good narrative. The location of elements spatially and chronologically are paramount. Dungeons lean more towards the objects contained therein as opposed to where they are placed in relation to each other and in what order they need to be found.

  I think when things need to happen in a specific order, with lots or prerequisites and what not, the utility of procedural generation can break down. At the minimum it becomes an incredibly complex problem.

  Chopping up the order of dungeons becomes a bit like trying to chop up a narrative. Sequence really matters.

  Note that in Zelda you can do many of the dungeons out of order, but after the first 2 or 3 it's unwise and/or impossible to do so. Each dungeon builds on the next, so the sequence becomes important, it becomes like a narrative. Also they are freakin' hard without the right gear. :-)

[TSMI]

We certainly do take topic requests!  Overworlds I'm not sure we'd have much to say much about though.  I haven't seen *any* where they do more than add a little flavour and sense of breadth to the game.  And there are no good examples of procedurally generated overworlds (I'm not even sure they're a good idea).  If you have some specific games you think are worth mentioning let me know.

Fair enough. I suppose the games I like with big overworlds are large and static. Tome4, Legerdemain (hugely, hugely underrated game) and ADOM. It's just a soft spot of mine. Probably not much to discuss from a mechanics point of view, but I just can't enjoy a game that takes place entirely in a dungeon that much. I need to feel the ascii suns rays on my face.

Whatever you do, please don't start talking about violence, sexual harassment, and rape like you guys did in episode 57. That was horrible to listen to, it felt like an after school special. I had to stop listening it was so uncomfortable. You might as well have started the whole thing off with "tonight, on a very special episode of roguelike radio". I really, really, really think the show should stay well away from srs real world topics.

(apologies if that criticism seemed over harsh, but i hope you'll take it as intended - something constructive from a person who very much enjoys listening to the show).

[guest509]

  I do prefer the fantasy as well. I am comfortable with religion, politics and sex but I understand how it can get dicey.

[TSMI]

  I do prefer the fantasy as well. I am comfortable with religion, politics and sex but I understand how it can get dicey.

Well there's a time and a place for it. That place is #rgrd-ot on quakenet, and that time is "whenever".

[kraflab]

What happened to episodes about specific roguelike games?  I think that the amount of interesting game-development discussion that pops up naturally from analyzing a particular game is often of more value than what pops up when there is a scheduled topic of discussion.  That's my two cents anyway.

[Darren Grey]

We're going to try and do a bit more of that this year    It can be hard to represent a game in depth though.  A lot of our eps about specific games ended up focusing too much on interface niggles.

[TSMI]

We're going to try and do a bit more of that this year    It can be hard to represent a game in depth though.  A lot of our eps about specific games ended up focusing too much on interface niggles.

Your interface niggle things are important issues - it got me thinking. I persevered with ADOM, my first roguelike, but threw my hands in the air when trying dwarf fortress. However, I seem to have higher tolerance than most (I do use vim after all). I showed a "newbie" ADOM, and when I told him the keys to do stuff he was like "yeah...maybe I'll place this later " but he jumped right into TOME4.

People want as few buttons as possible, and they want to be able to optionally click (it seems).

[jasonpickering]

I think the click is just a simplicity thing. its way easier to click the bag then run over to the I key to open the inventory. some Roguelikes use all keys, when they could have used just a mouse.

[TheCreator]

I think the click is just a simplicity thing. its way easier to click the bag then run over to the I key to open the inventory.

Well, maybe when the mouse pointer is already aimed at the bag, and even in that case it would be at most equally easy. Of course there are actions that are indeed much easier with mouse, but others (like accessing the inventory) should be still available from keyboard. A mouse has only 2 buttons, so that if you want to have mouse-only type of the interface, you must either simplify your game (which is not an option ), put a lot of buttons on the screen (again, not an option - what you want to create is a game, not some bloody Excel, right?), or implement mouse actions that are so complex that you won't have to wait for the angry crowd of players asking why the hell did you not implement any keyboard shortcuts. That's the way it is, buddy, you can't eat the cake and have the cake at the same time.

[Darren Grey]

New episode out about Sil:

http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2013/01/episode-59-sil.html

[TSMI]

I listened to half. I am surprised by your love of determinism darren! In combat and stealth. The "gambling" aspect of roguelikes is is a huge part of the fun for me.

[Darren Grey]

TSMI: Check out the in-depth discussion I had with the Sil developers on the Angband forums.

Also, new episode out!

http://www.roguelikeradio.com/2013/02/episode-60-t-engine.html

Anyone interesting in making game's in ToME's engine should have a good listen - even I learned quite a few things whilst chatting.