Foreigners

[jim]

I can't help but conclude that part of the reason for this enormous straw man has to do with a repressed sense of guilt. At least, I would hope so.

[guest509]

I have no problems with minorities (racially, sexually, etc), but I hate it when governments help them with my taxes.
What the hell, what fault I have to be white and etherosexual?

I am also a white male, but I accept that minority groups should receive some benefits from people like me.  Why?  Because people like me have had an unfair advantage over others in society for several centuries.  White males have had the best jobs, the easiest access to social and economic advancement, and a monopoly on political power reserved for them for quite some time.  This is unfair.  We are still living with the consequences of this unfairness today. 

Thus, to help counterbalance the advantages that people like us have been given, it makes sense that some of our money should go to make sure others can have the opportunities that they have been deprived of for so long, EVEN IF the legal and political barriers to their entry have been removed.  Strong informal and institutional barriers remain which should be compensated for.  As a result, I have no objections to a certain amount of transferring of resources from me to them.

Grah the inaccuracy! There have always been more poor whites than any other race in the US. It's about $ not about color.

[Antsan]

I think we have to think about preserving polar cultures which are vulnerable to outside influences.

I have never seen any indication of immigration undermining culture. Tradition that deserves to be preserved is preserved. The people screaming the loudest, that culture is destroyed, are the ones knowing the least about what their culture actually is. If they really would like to preserve their culture they would create cultural values. Instead they just consume and even laugh about the people who dare try be creative.

Foreigners just suck that way, they become criminals easily. Maybe that's the reason why their own countries also suck (like Somalia, one of the worst places on earth).

I think you have some serious misunderstandings about how this stuff works.
Foreigners get criminal more easily because it's harder for them to come by with legal means. Just a side note: That's why you need to make sure they can live a life that's worth living - whether that is through jobs, social care or whatever is an entirely other question.
Somalia is one of the worst places of the world because it is the dumping ground of the world and because they were a fishing nation that was outfished by "us" and not because "those people" are predetermined for criminality by their biology or culture.

Besides even in best case scenario, what is the point of taking foreigners? Why do we "need" them? And why can't they live in their own country? If their country sucks, why don't they ask the right question: hey, why does our country suck?

We do need foreigners because we need the diversity. Cultural incest is only this much better than biological incest.
And I can very much understand why they leave their country, if it sucks. When it sucks to the point where I am likely to die when I try to change anything about my situation (or I die either way), then I go elsewhere. There's no point to try to fight a superior force when there is a way to outrun it. I thought you were playing roguelikes? Isn't this one of the first lessons of DCSS?

Quite a lot of money has been put into development of poor countries, but what are the results? How long we have to give them money?

Yeah, and a lot more is taken back. We lend them money and thus the debt grows higher and higher so they can't ever pay us back.


And to the whole "job" thing: I never quite understood why we need full employment. We have the means to produce enough for everyone without having anyone employed and the pressure of needing a job is (in my experience) very much detrimental to the amount of creative work one is able to do. Most people too lazy to do anything productive haven't been lazy always but just gave up and "had enough".

[Psiweapon]

[Snipped since IIRC I already left my thoughts in this thread a while ago]

And to the whole "job" thing: I never quite understood why we need full employment. We have the means to produce enough for everyone without having anyone employed and the pressure of needing a job is (in my experience) very much detrimental to the amount of creative work one is able to do. Most people too lazy to do anything productive haven't been lazy always but just gave up and "had enough".

FUCK YEAH MAN. 

We should all be working like three or four hours a day and basking in the sun, fondling titties and making sculptures the remaining time!

[Fenrir]

I almost replied to the spambot when I saw “erotic massage london” in his signature. It is not even a link, so what does it want?

[Krice]

Foreigners get criminal more easily because it's harder for them to come by with legal means.

That is not a good excuse to be a criminal. There are poor people everywhere and they don't become criminals just like that.

Somalia is one of the worst places of the world because it is the dumping ground of the world

What "the world" did to them anyway? Somalians just suck. Their ancient tribal issue sucks. Someone needs to bring them to modern age.

[PompiPompi]

Hmm,
I think every country has it's right to preserve it's culture. Thos immigrants preserve their own culture when they come to the hosting country, no?
Also, I think people who immigrate to a country that don't want them, or force themselves upon a country that don't want them is a crime against humanity.
I mean, why a country that have a good economy, have no need for new immigrants is forced to accept anyone who want to immigrate to them? New uneducated immigrants is a burden for the hosting country, why are they forced to accept them?

I am all for making this planet a good place for everyone, but countries have a right to say no. I think these illegal immigrants are selfish, because they only care about improving their on life on account of the hosting country that has to take care of them and accept them.

I know it's not popular to be against illegal immigrants, but seriously, why is it always assumed that countries must accept illegal immigrants if it's not in the country's interest?
Maybe I am very ignorant and don't see what's is wrong with what I am saying, so please enlighten me.

[requerent]

I am all for making this planet a good place for everyone, but countries have a right to say no. I think these illegal immigrants are selfish, because they only care about improving their on life on account of the hosting country that has to take care of them and accept them.

LOL- In America, Companies truck Mexican slaves into our country to work (and die) in factories (below minimum wage) producing Spam (and other forms of depressing meat). When the company needs to reduce employment they just tip off the immigration police and problem solved!

Who wouldn't want illegal immigration?! It's such a perfect system... The only system superior to this is China.

[PompiPompi]

Do you have data to support it?
If they die, why do you need to deport them?
It's not like the whole world(including mexicans) use products produced by China's (real) slave labour. I am certain workers at the US, even the illegal ones, have much better conditions than Chinese workers.
But anyway, what is the point? One wrong justifies another wrong?

[requerent]

Do you have data to support it?
If they die, why do you need to deport them?
It's not like the whole world(including mexicans) use products produced by China's (real) slave labour. I am certain workers at the US, even the illegal ones, have much better conditions than Chinese workers.
But anyway, what is the point? One wrong justifies another wrong?

Check out the documentary "Food Inc."

They aren't ALL dying, it's a figure of speech. They work and die an existential death. Anyhow, if they're dead, that's an especially good reason to deport them!


How does illegal immigration benefit YOU?

It depends upon your socioeconomic class, but in 99% of all cases, illegal immigrants are paid significantly less, don't take advantage of social welfare, and don't pay taxes.

This means that, products produced in factories by illegal immigrants have a lower cost of production. Labor costs are reduced, so overall production costs are lower. This makes the product cheaper for the end consumer. Illegal Immigrants are also a boon to construction and landscaping companies, where most of the local population is either over-qualified or expects a higher quality of living. Since illegals don't pay income taxes (but they do pay sales taxes), they don't need as much money to thrive- since they can't take advantage of welfare, they don't cost tax-payers money (even though they are paying some taxes). This means that the quality of life for most people in a country will increase or stay the same. Increased productivity also improves the numbers for companies/countries/governments.

The problem with this is that the children of illegals are typically naturalized citizens- but they don't have a proper education (most of it comes from your parents) so they end up turning to a life of crime. Immigrant communities tend to have higher crime rates.

The last thing to consider- If the country has non-discriminating welfare programs, then illegal immigrants will take advantage of those, costing the government money. Large waves of immigration did a LOT of damage to the European economy because they were legally obligated to provide  services and junk that they weren't paying for.

[PompiPompi]

Well, I think this is regardless to the OP's point.
OP's point was that, THEY DON'T WANT illegal iimigrants, and supposingly Finland's govrnment don't want them too. So the solution is not to accept them legally, it's to not accept them at all.
I agree that it's problematic to exploit illegal immigrants. And then throw them back. But if a country don't want illegal immigrants at all, and also not to exploit them, but they are still coming anyway, then that's a crime against humanity.

[Pueo]

In America, Companies truck Mexican slaves into our country to work (and die) in factories (below minimum wage) producing Spam (and other forms of depressing meat). When the company needs to reduce employment they just tip off the immigration police and problem solved!

I actually laughed at this. 

First off, by saying slaves, you imply that they are "trucked in" against their will and forced to work until dead, with no pay.  By definition, 'immigrate' means "to enter and usually become established," whereas 'kidnap', by definition, is "to seize and detain or carry away by unlawful force or fraud."  This means that our problem is not illegal immigration, but kidnapping.  So, you're basically saying companies all over the country are breaking the law on a daily, widespread basis, and you only "proof" is a documentary, which brings us to point two.

Point Two: No matter how compelling this documentary is, it's still a movie, funded by Participant Media, a company whose only goal is to make money.  It is not an unbiased study, it's a movie.  Act of Valor, The Lorax, Happy Feet 2, all movies with a "message." However, to make that message, they only tell the facts/stories that promote their message.  Act of Valor told all those "acts of valor", but didn't show the training, and boot camp, and all those other things that aren't so valorous.  Am I saying that the military is horrible? No, they're great, I'm just saying that the movie is not a good reference for the stuff that goes on in the military. 'The Lorax' shows us what we would look like after we cut down every last tree in the world. However, don't you think we would have wised up long before that?  They paint the picture to promote their thoughts, but the picture is does not show both sides.  'Happy Feet 2' looks so sad with the hundreds of penguins slowly starving to death, until we realize that millions of animals die every day.  Also that penguins can't actually talk.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't care about our environment, I'm just saying that movies aren't a good reference.

//Shortened for readability

How does illegal immigration benefit YOU?

...since [illegal immigrants] can't take advantage of welfare, they don't cost tax-payers money...

Except they do cost tax-payers money.  Illegal immigrants that end up criminals (not all of them do, but it does happen) cost the police time and money, and, since the police are funded by us, the taxpayers, illegal immigrants cost the tax-payers money.

Illegal immigrants who work for less than others will cost us money, since they take money for jobs we would have done.

Illegal immigrants who go to public hospitals will receive free care, since they can't pay for it anyway, and since public hospitals are funded by the government, they cost tax-payers money.

[requerent]

In America, Companies truck Mexican slaves into our country to work (and die) in factories (below minimum wage) producing Spam (and other forms of depressing meat). When the company needs to reduce employment they just tip off the immigration police and problem solved!

I actually laughed at this. 

Then you got it!

First off, by saying slaves, you imply that they are "trucked in" against their will and forced to work until dead, with no pay.  By definition, 'immigrate' means "to enter and usually become established," whereas 'kidnap', by definition, is "to seize and detain or carry away by unlawful force or fraud."  This means that our problem is not illegal immigration, but kidnapping.  So, you're basically saying companies all over the country are breaking the law on a daily, widespread basis, and you only "proof" is a documentary, which brings us to point two.

Point Two: No matter how compelling this documentary is, it's still a movie, funded by Participant Media, a company whose only goal is to make money.  It is not an unbiased study, it's a movie.  Act of Valor, The Lorax, Happy Feet 2, all movies with a "message." However, to make that message, they only tell the facts/stories that promote their message.  Act of Valor told all those "acts of valor", but didn't show the training, and boot camp, and all those other things that aren't so valorous.  Am I saying that the military is horrible? No, they're great, I'm just saying that the movie is not a good reference for the stuff that goes on in the military. 'The Lorax' shows us what we would look like after we cut down every last tree in the world. However, don't you think we would have wised up long before that?  They paint the picture to promote their thoughts, but the picture is does not show both sides.  'Happy Feet 2' looks so sad with the hundreds of penguins slowly starving to death, until we realize that millions of animals die every day.  Also that penguins can't actually talk.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't care about our environment, I'm just saying that movies aren't a good reference.

Nevermind, I guess you didn't.

//Shortened for readability

How does illegal immigration benefit YOU?

...since [illegal immigrants] can't take advantage of welfare, they don't cost tax-payers money...

Except they do cost tax-payers money.  Illegal immigrants that end up criminals (not all of them do, but it does happen) cost the police time and money, and, since the police are funded by us, the taxpayers, illegal immigrants cost the tax-payers money.

Illegal immigrants who work for less than others will cost us money, since they take money for jobs we would have done.

Illegal immigrants who go to public hospitals will receive free care, since they can't pay for it anyway, and since public hospitals are funded by the government, they cost tax-payers money.

I addressed those points in my last two paragraphs of my previous post...

The problem with this is that the children of illegals are typically naturalized citizens- but they don't have a proper education (most of it comes from your parents) so they end up turning to a life of crime. Immigrant communities tend to have higher crime rates.

The last thing to consider- If the country has non-discriminating welfare programs, then illegal immigrants will take advantage of those, costing the government money. Large waves of immigration did a LOT of damage to the European economy because they were legally obligated to provide  services and junk that they weren't paying for.

[Pueo]

I addressed those points in my last two paragraphs of my previous post...

The problem with this is that the children of illegals are typically naturalized citizens- but they don't have a proper education (most of it comes from your parents) so they end up turning to a life of crime. Immigrant communities tend to have higher crime rates.

The last thing to consider- If the country has non-discriminating welfare programs, then illegal immigrants will take advantage of those, costing the government money. Large waves of immigration did a LOT of damage to the European economy because they were legally obligated to provide  services and junk that they weren't paying for.

Actually, we (USA) do have discriminating welfare programs, which means illegals cannot apply for it.  I was talking about services the government already does, such as crime fighting and health services for the poor, being overloaded because of illegal immigrants.

Also, if this was sarcasm:

In America, Companies truck Mexican slaves into our country to work (and die) in factories (below minimum wage) producing Spam (and other forms of depressing meat). When the company needs to reduce employment they just tip off the immigration police and problem solved!

Then you really ruined it by supporting your claim in your following posts.

[requerent]

I addressed those points in my last two paragraphs of my previous post...

The problem with this is that the children of illegals are typically naturalized citizens- but they don't have a proper education (most of it comes from your parents) so they end up turning to a life of crime. Immigrant communities tend to have higher crime rates.

The last thing to consider- If the country has non-discriminating welfare programs, then illegal immigrants will take advantage of those, costing the government money. Large waves of immigration did a LOT of damage to the European economy because they were legally obligated to provide  services and junk that they weren't paying for.

Actually, we (USA) do have discriminating welfare programs, which means illegals cannot apply for it.  I was talking about services the government already does, such as crime fighting and health services for the poor, being overloaded because of illegal immigrants.

I live in Texas and my Wife is from the Rio Grande Valley. I have plenty of experience with illegal immigrants and their impact upon the society (Oddly enough, Texas is one of the only states that gives more to the Fed than we get back- a symptom of being one of the most financially secure states in the union). The added strain on social services (in America) follows the wave of immigration with the subsequent generation of naturalized citizens (as was previously said). That's the product of poor socialization, not illegal immigration. All of our poor communities suffer from these symptoms, they are not unique to areas with illegal immigration. It's the inherited social disease of poverty.

There is an exception- Illegal immigrants add to the crime rate when the local economy that they move into does not have demand for chattle-esque labor. Barring a total failure of financial management (IE New Mexico), there's always a demand for petty labor.

A healthy society can handle large waves of immigration. Although I am opposed to illegal immigration, I am more opposed to government/social structure that isn't capable of fathoming the potential value of a bunch of cheap labor. The problem of illegal immigration is equally the ability of our society to react- this half of it probably lies with keynesian economic policies and other bits of terrible legislation.

Also, if this was sarcasm:

In America, Companies truck Mexican slaves into our country to work (and die) in factories (below minimum wage) producing Spam (and other forms of depressing meat). When the company needs to reduce employment they just tip off the immigration police and problem solved!

Then you really ruined it by supporting your claim in your following posts.

No. It is clearly a hyperbole.