Author Topic: Foreigners  (Read 64237 times)

Bear

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 308
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 10:09:28 PM »
To quote some screenwriter for Paramount who will probably never get a proper attribution,
"I am pleased to see that we have differences.  It means we can learn from one another."

Bear

Darren Grey

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2027
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • It is pitch black. You are likely to eat someone.
    • View Profile
    • Games of Grey
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 04:31:20 PM »
So you end up in a situation where two kinds of people try to live in one country. We know from experience that it's not the best way. So why it's so "important" to take lots of foreigners?

Why is it not best to have multiple kinds of people in one country?  Homogenity would be hell, surely.

Fenrir

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 473
  • Karma: +1/-2
  • The Monstrous Wolf
    • View Profile
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 05:14:31 PM »
All a matter of personal preferences—if I am correct is suspecting that Krice just does not like foreigners in his country and is reluctant to simply state so.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 05:46:33 PM by Fenrir »

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2011, 07:40:58 PM »
Why is it not best to have multiple kinds of people in one country?

It never really works well. I want to know where it does work so I can be wrong. But usually it creates problems between two or more groups of people with different culture, especially when religion is involved. Like muslims and jews in Israel. Can they ever reach peace?

Darren Grey

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2027
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • It is pitch black. You are likely to eat someone.
    • View Profile
    • Games of Grey
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2011, 10:24:38 PM »
That's a very specific political problem. And whilst there are certain examples of conflicts due to immigration, consider that the same thing happens without immigration (look at all the civil wars across the world). Immigration and race are just used as fronts for the natural human propensity for conflict.

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2011, 06:25:09 AM »
consider that the same thing happens without immigration

No, the same thing doesn't happen. Civil wars are actually very rare these days. With shitload of foreigners who want to keep their culture it means problems. This is noticed in all countries who have a big number of foreigners. I don't want Finland to make the exact same mistake that Sweden made. Now there are areas (ghettos in other word) in some towns in Sweden where even police can't operate, because they are afraid. Foreigners just suck that way, they become criminals easily. Maybe that's the reason why their own countries also suck (like Somalia, one of the worst places on earth).

jim

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 380
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2011, 09:14:06 PM »
*fart noise*

Psiweapon

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Im in ur rougeliekz, pixelling ur tielz!
    • View Profile
    • I Lovemaking Tiles
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2011, 09:43:00 PM »
consider that the same thing happens without immigration

No, the same thing doesn't happen. Civil wars are actually very rare these days. With shitload of foreigners who want to keep their culture it means problems. This is noticed in all countries who have a big number of foreigners. I don't want Finland to make the exact same mistake that Sweden made. Now there are areas (ghettos in other word) in some towns in Sweden where even police can't operate, because they are afraid. Foreigners just suck that way, they become criminals easily. Maybe that's the reason why their own countries also suck (like Somalia, one of the worst places on earth).

Well, you have a point.

Inmigration *does* lead to problems, but the problem isn't inmigration per se, or the inmigrants in themselves.

I'd say that the problems stem from three things:

1: Illegal inmigration

2: The lack of method when taking formal, lawful inmigrants.

3: Unwillingness of inmigrants to adapt to some aspects of culture

4: Probably the root of all problems, that most inmigrants were shit poor in their homeland and inmigration is a last resort action, actually to send money to their family.

Okay, here in Spain we had a relatively recent (in the seventies or something like that) wave of emigration. Mostly to Germany, but also to Switzerland. Most people that emigrated there were guys and girls in the prime of their youth who seized an opportunity to send money to their families back here because those weren't exactly golden times here.

Bear in mind that I'm talking about the archetypal example, which is quite common, but surely there were differing cases.

Those young people were separated from their families, working in a country about which they knew next to nothing, and used to live in barracks next to the factories they worked at. That is nothing to sneeze at.

A lot of them returned eventually, but some of them stayed there and could very well be around the third generation of spanish-descended germans. Others returned on the second generations - the emigrants came back with their german-speaking children.

The problems arise when people who move to another country in dire need of work are either gobbled up by inmigration mafias, or refuse / are unable to adapt to the uses and customs of their new environment. When in rome, you know, do as romans do.


I don't think that first-generation inmigrants settle the issue, it's their kinds and grankids with whom you check if the process is going well. If their kids speak both languages and aren't out of place in society or causing problems, I'd say it's okay.
The invisible hand is a lie, the fiendish dogma of the market cultists. Lest the apostasy grows strong, their blood god will devour each and everyone, pious and infidel alike.

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2011, 08:55:39 PM »
Besides even in best case scenario, what is the point of taking foreigners? Why do we "need" them? And why can't they live in their own country? If their country sucks, why don't they ask the right question: hey, why does our country suck?

Kyzrati

  • 7DRL Reviewer
  • Rogueliker
  • *
  • Posts: 507
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Grid Sage Games
    • Email
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2011, 11:08:07 PM »
Besides even in best case scenario, what is the point of taking foreigners? Why do we "need" them? And why can't they live in their own country? If their country sucks, why don't they ask the right question: hey, why does our country suck?

So in Finland they don't take on jobs that locals prefer to avoid? That's the way it works in many other countries...

I guess it does become a problem if they go the other route and form close-knit societies and refuse to integrate, but in any country where immigrants have been around long enough, their children tend to be assimilated over time and things eventually change, albeit slowly.

Perhaps it also has to do with the attitude with which they're received. If immigrants aren't accepted into the greater society, they'll naturally form their own isolated society, and if they were poor and uneducated to begin with, then you have a natural breeding ground for crime. But when welcomed and given time to gradually become accustomed to a new culture and environment, they'll be much more able and willing to change.

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2011, 09:10:48 AM »
So in Finland they don't take on jobs that locals prefer to avoid? That's the way it works in many other countries...

I guess that's the reason they take foreigners. They want to create low wage jobs and use those people practically as slaves that have no other option. It's this time of money and results.

The problem in Finland is that we don't have spare jobs. We also like to work in crappy jobs. But politicians try their best to create even worse situation with shady work conditions and lack of control in foreign imported workers. It's criminal, but corruption makes that possible. It's just annoying that we have to follow what other less developed countries also do.

Quote
But when welcomed and given time to gradually become accustomed to a new culture and environment, they'll be much more able and willing to change.

Well, I wouldn't be that sure. We actually have gypsies who never became a part of our culture. They just don't want to do it and nothing can change that. So yeah, good luck with integration that will possibly never happen.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 09:14:25 AM by Krice »

guest509

  • Guest
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2011, 05:18:05 AM »
  I dunno why it is important to take them. I guess it is the 'right' thing to do to help the downtrodden.
  So it's a good question. Does 'goodness' of helping the downtrodden of other countries outweigh the friction that will be created in society? I dunno man.

  What I do know is that Finns will be integrating just as much as the immigrants will. You meld together, but never completely. You end up with a marbled mess.

  And what you say about Finns is hilarious. As an American your country is beautiful, progressive, non corrupt, egalitarian and awesome in too many ways to list here. And I have NEVER met nicer people, though Australians and Kiwis are pretty goddamn friendly.


guest509

  • Guest
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2011, 05:21:19 AM »
  It should be noted that immigration reform in this country is hindered by the fact that the wealthy make a killing off of hiring illegal immigrants. And with our elections funded by large private donations, this is unlikely to change anytime soon.

Skeletor

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 580
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • villains ftw
    • View Profile
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2011, 05:38:14 PM »
I have no problems with minorities (racially, sexually, etc), but I hate it when governments help them with my taxes.
What the hell, what fault I have to be white and etherosexual?
What I enjoy the most in roguelikes: Anti-Farming and Mac Givering my way out. Kind of what I also enjoy in life.

Krice

  • (Banned)
  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2316
  • Karma: +0/-2
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Foreigners
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2012, 08:30:30 AM »
Thus, to help counterbalance the advantages that people like us have been given, it makes sense that some of our money should go to make sure others can have the opportunities that they have been deprived of for so long

Funny thing is that people still refuse to understand that money doesn't solve everything. Also it's "racist" to say that cultures and countries are different. It's like everything that happens here should work everywhere, but in reality this has simply not happened. Quite a lot of money has been put into development of poor countries, but what are the results? How long we have to give them money?