Author Topic: Hydra Slayer (now at 16.1), NotEye (now at 8.1)  (Read 122885 times)

cephalopoid

  • Newcomer
  • Posts: 15
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Hydra Slayer version 10.0
« Reply #120 on: April 04, 2011, 12:12:34 AM »
Spoiler Alert:

Thanks for the laughs. I loved the three-headed monkey. However, he (and ettins, too, I suppose) is not clever enough to dodge a freshly raised hydra. Is this the intended behaviour?

The bug with the sapphire blunt weapons I mentioned earlier also bugs out on swords. I hope that narrows down your search a bit.

Good job on all the descriptions, by the way. They really make the game much more graphical.

Quote
Was also wondering if maybe there could be a message that lets you know when you clear out all the hydras. Maybe colored text.

I am not sure about this. On one hand it makes you satisfied after finishing your job on a given level. On the other hand, you lose some excitement if you know that there won't be any more hydras behind the mushrooms. But probably yes, it is worth it.

There can always be loot behind the mushrooms, so it's not like we'd stop exploring the level, we'd just know it's safe to cut corners while doing so.

Quote
I'll try to think about some story for ettins.

I forgot about checking the in-game description. Perhaps you already did.

I understand about the blinking. How about a potion of "remote self-regrowth" then? ^^
Just kidding.

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer version 10.0
« Reply #121 on: April 04, 2011, 06:24:25 PM »
Thanks! :)

Regarding the black text: I want special monsters to force you to lose something (otherwise they would not be a challenge and would make no sense). For example, in case of ettins, you should either lose lots of HP by fighting them with a dagger, or one of your resources, or one of your weapon slots by carrying a machette everywhere, or the ettin's weapon by deciding not to fight. Your method seems to use up a rare resource, so I think it does not disrupt the balance.

The bug with the ambi+reduction combo seems serious then, but I will look into it when I have time.

The ettins of course have a description, but it does not contain the particular part you have requested (it does not describe how they got to Hydras Nest, it just describes why they stay there), so I thought you meant that.

I have a more original idea about a teleport device, but it would be a rare wand with a limited number of uses (and use up an equipment slot).

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer version 10.0
« Reply #122 on: April 10, 2011, 05:24:44 PM »
OK, the new version is out!

  • Fixed the bug with ambi+reforging combo (which was probably there for some time, I have not changed it for a long time)
  • Five new equipment items (axes, spears, thrown rocks, and two rare types)
  • Ettin description updated
  • help ('?') now includes the background story
  • Better debug mode (shift+I to access lots of weapons, or items for trolls)
  • Giant weapons no longer guaranteed (but more varied)
  • Messages after completing levels
  • Results of ambi-attacks are now displayed in an user-friendly way
  • Charging now also works with blades other than the normal ones (e.g. dancing)

Quite a lot of changes for the new weapon types, so bugs are likely, I think. If you find anything illogical or working in a different way than in a previous version, please report :)

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2011, 01:42:52 PM »
Version 11.1 is out, although not much many improvements this time:

  • I forgot to implement one feature of the new special item from the previous version (although I have described it), fixed now (also works a bit differently than was described)
  • you now see targetting lines when using missiles etc
  • Help now states that you can press TAB to erase character names

I have not added arrow navigation of start/quit menus as Legend suggested (if you don't name your start character the start menu can be already navigated with arrows, if you do then you have to use the keyboard anyway; you also probably have to press a key anyway to enter the quit menu; using arrows for options in the Hall of Fame seems to be too much work to be worth it)

Legend

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 656
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #124 on: April 24, 2011, 08:20:44 PM »
Just curious if you were planning on adding anymore races? I think a viking race would be kinda cool. You don't see them that often and might fit with how dierse your current group of races are. I know a viking is technically human, but just a thought. Maybe they can start out with axes (if you implement them) and have a berserk ability? Would also go in theme with the runes.

Also was thinking about the boomerang. Maybe it could be a blunt ranged weapon used for stunning like zelda? And since their path of travel curves, it could make sense that they could stun more than one head. And of course it would come back to you.
Quote
I have not added arrow navigation of start/quit menus as Legend suggested...  using arrows for options in the Hall of Fame seems to be too much work to be worth it)

I can see the arrow navigation really not being very necessary for the Hall of fame. Still hoping for the start/quit menus though. Especially the quit menu. Actually if I had to pick one of the three, it would be the quit menu. Sorry for beating the dead horse.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2011, 11:42:31 PM by Legend »

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #125 on: April 25, 2011, 10:59:01 AM »
No problem with adding new races, enemies, equipment, or items, but I must like them :)

Axes are already in 11.0. How would such a berserk ability work exactly? I think Minotaur would be a better race for HS than Viking, and berserk, using axes, and visiting mazes fit them.

A boomerang would have to be something interesting (and at the same neither too powerful nor too weak). If it is just a stunner that works from a distance, or a poorer version of the Elvish bow, then I think it's not interesting enough. It should follow some interesting curved trajectory, and do a reasonable amount of damage to hydras on this trajectory.

Legend

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 656
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #126 on: April 25, 2011, 08:32:55 PM »
I suppose a minotaur does fit the theme better naturally. I just thought a viking would be a little cooler since you don't see them very often in roguelikes (except in Ragnarok) and they are pretty badass I think. I know DCSS has Minotaurs. The reasoning for a viking being there could be that he traveled from far away because he heard of the hydra problem and came to slay them to help and for personal glory so he can return to his homeland a hero with great deeds to tell. 

Don't have any real ideas for how berserk would work. Maybe if the player can kiil so many hydras in a certain amount of turns, there is a chance he will go berserk? And the player has to continue to kill hydras quickly in succession in order to remain berserk. Berserking could lessen the damage that the player takes and maybe take off an extra head?

Just thought the boomerang might be a cool idea. Don't know if there is already ranged stunning weapon since I have yet to find one so far. Can't think of any specific cool ideas for a boomerang that would be that interesting off hand right now. Maybe if one edge was bladed so it could do a combo of cutting off one head and stunning another? Not sure if that would be considered over powered or not though. Maybe it could have a shorter range than the others since it returns and to make up for it maybe being too powerful?

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2011, 07:04:20 PM »

After thinking a bit about inconvenencies of playing roguelikes on laptops (hard to move diagonally, you need to either buy an external numpad, use the inconvenient layout, or learn the VI diagonals) and handheld devices I have decided to implement a new feature in Hydra Slayer.

In version 11.2, before the start of game you can choose your geometry, which can be:

  • 8-directional, as in a traditional roguelike
  • 4-directional, for laptop users and other people who find it hard to use 8 directions
  • 6-directional, that is, a hex grid

Changing geometry changes the way the dungeons are generated and possible moves of both you and hydras. Thus, you can use 4-directional mode on a laptop without being owned by 8-directional hydras, or being unable to get into some part of the level. Hex-based mode is displayed with each second cell, thus the hex-based levels are smaller than normal ones (but contain the same amount of objects). On the other hand, more space means that we can always display the exact number of heads ;)

The difficulty of the game probably varies a bit depending on the geometry, but I think it's OK that you can play several slightly different games now. :)

Another new feature is that the ESC key should successfully exit menus now (the implementation of input has been changed, but this should be only visible internally). And there is a "Call monster" command in debug mode, instead of automatically creating lots of special enemies. But that's not important.

Hope it works :)


Legend

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 656
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2011, 11:09:02 PM »
That's awesome that you made different control design options for those of us using laptops. I would guess that it's a first for a roguelike. Hope more developers take laptop users into consideration in the future.

              t he lack of numberpad on my laptop is what got me into using a gamepad for some roguelikes such as hydra slayer, frozen depths,  and doomrl. Using the gamepad is what led to the arrow key navigation requests too.

Probably going to stick to 8 way directions with gamepad though since I lack not only a number pad, but a proper desk as well to sit comfortably at and utilize the keys while playing.

But I think it is an absolutely fantastic idea.

Is the vi setup still available? What keys are used in hex mode? 

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #129 on: April 29, 2011, 12:56:27 AM »
Yeah. Seems lots of people use laptops as their main computers nowadays. I think it makes it slightly harder to introduce them to roguelikes if they need to learn some strange control scheme, like arrows plus these weirdly placed 4 extra buttons, VI keys, or having to use Fn for all moves. From my preliminary testing it seems that Hydra Slayer works well in any of three geometries, the things that change is the size of the dungeon (smaller in hex, larger in ortho since you need more moves to get to places) and how hard it is to get surrounded by hydras (I have not noticed a noticeable effect there, but probably it's just because the RNG did not create such a situation). Thus, it makes sense to adapt the game (conducting an interesting experiment on the way) to them instead of forcing them to adapt to the game.

Yes, VI keys still work, and  they still mean the same direction, except that I have tried to give other meaning if their usual direction is unavailable in given geometry (while unused numpad directions just do nothing). Thus, pressing J and K is the hex mode goes right (so you can use YUBNHJ for movement, which is only slightly unnatural I think), and pressing YUBN in the 4-directional mode goes straight up or down instead of diagonally.

A small update (version 11.2a): Space key now skips a turn (using '.' for doing nothing together with arrow keys felt awkward on a laptop), and J key used in hex mode now moves to the right, not to the left (for the reason described above).

It's interesting how skipping turns is actually essential in the 4-directional mode (while in 8-directional I almost never do that, since I can get the first strike by just moving to the side).

Legend

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 656
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2011, 02:15:50 AM »
I was curious, is there or will there be a way to designate which control scheme to use by default instead of having to pick at the beginning of each game? Like a config setting or a command line comment kinda like how you can always have the same player name by using the command line like you described here:

Quote
To set a default character and player name, run e.g. "hydra.exe cCharacter uLegend" (BTW you can press Tab or Esc while editing the name to erase "Administrator") (the information about command line options is shown when you try to use them (run "hydra -h" or something), although it might be difficult to see on Windows)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:18:26 AM by Legend »

Bear

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 308
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2011, 04:45:54 PM »
The thing is, unless you are very careful, there are serious balance differences between 4-directional and 8-directional movement.  Especially if creatures can only meelĂ©e attack along movement vectors. 8-directional vs. 4-directional movement could double consequences of getting caught in the open for example.

It's nice to have the option, but you may find that if you balance it for 4-directional, it becomes impossible on 8-directional, or that all player guides say "NEVER use 8-directional movement." In that case it's not really an option any more.

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2011, 11:32:56 PM »
Legend: yes, such an option would be a good idea. I have thought about that, I think I have not added it because command line options are undocumented. Maybe I should just document them (and also the option to change the geometry by pressing Space, 4, 6, or 8, and what's the geometry about in general).

Bear, I probably should test it a bit more to be sure, but I think it's the same things that happen when adding new races or classes: they give advantages and disadvantages (both in terms of challenge and being interesting in general), and it is usually not obvious whether the net effect is positive or negative. If it turns out to be seriously negative, then we can always tweak the game in order to remove the effect. Whether it's race, class, or geometry, it's the player's preference of what style they choose. Options do not have to be equally challenging, they just should all be interesting.

While consequences of getting caught in the open do matter in Hydra Slayer (I remember situations where I have been attacked by several hydras at once and had to use interesting strategies to deal with that, like stunning some of them with powerful weapons so that they act like roadblocks), I think the challenge in Hydra Slayer comes mostly from (on low level) using the equipment you have to slay hydras effectively, and (on high level) creating equipment which allows that. Both of these are not affected by geometry (except if you are a heavy user of missiles), and thus I think that game remains good after changing the geometry, you just lose some things and gain some other things.

Z

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 905
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Z's Roguelike Stuff
Hydra Slayer version 11.3
« Reply #133 on: April 30, 2011, 04:37:45 AM »
OK, version 11.3 released with the following changes:

  • Fixed bugs with ambidexterity which sometimes caused the number of stunned heads to be calculated incorrectly, or allowed attacks which required more active heads than available (these bugs with ambi seem very hard to find...)
  • Hydras were too bad at noticing you in the 4-directional mode, now they are actually better than in other modes (as a counterbalance for the fact that it was a bit easier to avoid being attacked by multiple hydras)
  • Help now includes a section about command line options and geometry
  • Removed some debug messages from the previous version
  • 'A' option in the debug mode revives you in addition to solving the level
  • A weird secret available by pressing an undocumented key (an Easter egg, so to say)

I have tested the balance of the 4-directional mode (specifically, how hard is it to avoid being attacked by multiple hydras), and it seems similar to 8-directional after the modification. (Although only a few levels, and my equipment was also not very good.)

Darren Grey

  • Rogueliker
  • ***
  • Posts: 2027
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • It is pitch black. You are likely to eat someone.
    • View Profile
    • Games of Grey
Re: Hydra Slayer version 11.1
« Reply #134 on: May 06, 2011, 12:49:36 PM »
The 4-way mode sounds like a cool idea.  The only imbalancing thing I can think about it is the FOV.  In 4-way mode you essentially can see further - the time it takes to reach something on the edge of vision is up to twice as long (and similarly the time it takes them to reach you, allowing you to run or shoot for longer).  You may want to change the FOV to a diamond shape in 4-way mode to compensate.