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Player's Plaza / Re: So the wikipedia page lists roguelites as roguelikes

« on: July 11, 2019, 09:17:17 PM »

The issue there is that people take that, steam and other sources that bastardize the term roguelike as gospel and then shove roguelites into the genre bogging it down further and dragging it further from the source material. If you created a racing game with randomized tracks and claimed it was a "roguelike" just based on the proc-gen factor of tracks alone most people these days wouldnt bat an eye, and it's sources like that that are the issue here.

Furthermore why let the term continue to be bastardized? Why not flag the "roguelike" tag on steams roguelites that have it? Why not actually put up a fight? If we dont the genre is going to die out.

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Player's Plaza / So the wikipedia page lists roguelites as roguelikes

« on: June 16, 2019, 09:05:39 PM »

Another anon roguelike fan and I are trying to inform wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Roguelike) that roguelites are not roguelikes given that they are not seen as such by areas dedicated to roguelikes such as here, reddit, roguebasin, the IRLDB etc. Can I get any help with this, either in references or in backup? 

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: April 02, 2019, 04:27:03 AM »

The trouble is that Immortal Redneck does not bear any semblance to rogue, nor the other genre defining titles whereas Neoscavenger does. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier to roguelikes we're then excluding some actual roguelikes in favor of allowing games like Immortal Redneck, when Immortal Redneck fits less than the open world roguelikes such as Unreal World, Neoscavenger and Ragnarok that are roguelikes. The trouble is that if we're using the presence of dungeons as a qualifier we're then expected to kick out every open world game regardless of whether it actually fits.

Immortal Redneck, Minecraft, Organ Trail, Domina etc do not fit as they dont have the feel of a roguelike, there's little tact and in the case of all 4 any "permadeath" aspect is limpwristed at best while they do not play otherwise like anything else properly assigned within the genre.

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: April 01, 2019, 10:16:26 AM »

That is why I emphasize the importance of the "dungeon" in defining the genre. A roguelike game revolves largely around the dungeon, if the developers admit it or not.
Tetris has no dungeon, Sim-city has no dungeon, minecraft has no dungeon, dwarf fortress has no dungeon, but "immortal redneck" still does.

Here's the issue with putting emphasis on dungeons: There are open world roguelikes such as Elona, neoscavenger and the likes that fit the definition of roguelike better than immortal redneck. Hell minecraft actually does have dungeons. I'd say minecraft is more of a roguelike than immortal redneck.
Neither count.

Then there's also the fact that in oldschool IVAN(idk about the current build) you used to be able to use the run and kick commands to train leg strength. You could also steal the bananas by kicking them away from the drop/harvest tile then picking them up thus allowing you to just train leg strength until you got strong enough to just beat the shit outta everyone in the starting slave encampment. That means a classic roguelike had a completion path that allowed for a no-dungeon run. By your own standards, your own standards defy themselves

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: March 31, 2019, 12:47:17 PM »

Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's

Maybe japanese ones, but not in here. Not really. Rogue (graphical version) and Ragnarok were the only commercial roguelikes anyway, and I wouldn't call them a success in a way much more succesful games were. The reason some developers make commercial versions today is that there are way more players than back then, so everything that attracts some kind of interest will sell ok, I guess? Ok enough to put your game in roguelike genre even it's not a roguelike. That's the problem, sir.

Agreed. I'd even go as far to say that Rogue was a commercial flop and that Rogues main success was the spawning of its genre. The trouble is that for the largest time that genre was freeware, it was for lack of the proper term "donationware" and it was run by a community of freeware/donationware developers who made things in the spirit and nature of Rogue and its ilk for the sake of making things that were like that.

The commercial market however just. Does. Not. Give. A. Single. Flamingo. Pink. Fuck.

The commercial market poisons the well with titles like Risk of Rain, Domina, Hero Siege, Isaac, Spelunky etc and calls those "roguelikes" when they just arent. The commercial market cares more for the cash its titles bring in than how those titles are labelled, and if a title is mislabeled they mangle the label rather than regroup the product.

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: March 31, 2019, 12:16:12 PM »

Commercialization is killing roguelikes,

Roguelikes were first commercially successful back in the 90's, even if regional in exodus not unlike Metal and Wizardry, such that it is now 2019.   Death pronouncements along these lines have been a factor year after year after year now---yet, curiously, Things Continue with this not being appreciated on a cognizant level not unlike apocalyptic movements missing a midnight deadline yet rallying that it'll totally happen next weekend.  "Pre-Millenium" Roguelikes dying out any time soon just doesn't have a leg to stand on when they keep cropping up(even just the last few weeks have granted the world The Red Prison and Zorbus!) and the classics either still actively live (like IVAN!) or are preserved in graceful repose.

You want a real risk?  Death of developers and/or their ruination otherwise---as per Dwarf Fortress.   People are ALWAYS at a more paramount risk than broad constructs hewn broadly around their great works, doubly with a small population compared to other sectors.

Games aren't weeds, even weird GaaS stuff serves some purpose so long as the gambling/addiction interlopers are kept in check---games are an ecosystem with biodiversity being key to a rich environ full of intrigue.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if I hadnt come across people irl who claimed that "roguelikes need fast paced action gameplay" and that nethack wasnt a roguelike a couple of days ago. The snotbags even had the nerve to state that nethack was never a roguelike. Dudes werent even young peeps. Sonsabitches were 20-30-ish. My age!

Point blank rampant commercialization of games that share nothing or near-nothing with the genre such as slay the spire, risk of rain, immortal redneck and other titles of that ilk as roguelikes are drowning out the actual genre

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: March 30, 2019, 12:39:15 PM »

You can venerate a corpse or a spirit---while the former has an absolute value to the ecosystem at a foundational level, the latter is where the potential dwells from that inherited will.

It is just a damned Steam tag, something they only even started bothering with in recent times as one of many things slapped onto their buckling platform to grant an illusion of agency and discoverability to compensate for their refusal to set actual people to work alongside foolhardy attempts at algorithmic cleverness.   Marketing copy is also just that,  AC positioning is just as as something like "immersive adventure" or whatever wasn't as snappy or resonant.

Modern gaming isn't even real, there's only ever been Now with the slim benefit of the immediate past as the industry proper ran away from systemic problems staring it down since the 80's.   Try not to let such machinations have an undue hold over your peace of mind and enjoyment of things---be an enthusiast, not merely some consumer fit for a whipped mob's froth.

You get infinitely more mileage boosting the good and nigh forgotten/out of the limelight, than hopping on an outrage bandwagon that only has fine grains of a point buried deep within---less stress over the already successful Hero Siege and the sequel to come that veers harder on the Diablo evolution, more active emphasis/playing/testing/feedback etc on...hell I don't know...one of the many stupidly ambitious and well wrought projects like Axu that punches in the same weight class as Caves of Qud?

The issue is that actual roguelikes are being choked out by a myriad of games that just arent in the genre. The genre is a dying husk of itself because of that. Commercialization is killing roguelikes, propping up roguelites as if they're roguelikes and propping up games entirely outside the genre as if they belong. If/when roguelikes as they're meant to be and had been for the first 20 years of the terms inception die out I'm just done. In that situation just send my ass back to the time before broadband as far as gaming goes mate.

Plain and simple: Capitalism is killing roguelikes. Its enough to drive a man to communism! 

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: March 30, 2019, 12:59:21 AM »

A bit of tempest in a teapot as even jrpgs have weathered a similar drift/mutation/We Somehow Forgot---not too far removed from Roguelikes, the original aim was to adapt western tabletop P&P doings either directly as per Final Fantasy or indirectly as per The Black Onyx.  Even most enthusiasts, international or otherwise, since the 90's would be likely to not find that out until long after the fact, if at all.

That which is dead and doomsayed is oftentimes quite alive after a fashion----depends on how the immortal spirit is inherited or leveraged.

Alive but in what capacity? In what form? In what iteration? The modern roguelike tag is such a butchery of the genre its no more a fair and accurate assessment than to call Assassins Creed an "RPG" series. If we see the roguelike tag mangled like this too much further then I think I'm just done with modern gaming in its entirety tbh.

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: March 29, 2019, 08:10:59 PM »

That's why I feel we should keep an open discussion about it, to be able to point people that, for instance, permadeath was and still is an important aspect of roguelikes. If we are open to talk about other games, we have a chance to inform their players about the history of the roguelikes and how their game ended up being labeled as a roguelike even if it lacked critical aspects of the traditional ones.

The issue is no one gives a damn about the history. No one gives a damn about what roguelikes are meant to be. No one gives a rats ass about the fact that what is actually like the defining games in the genre is nothing alike the modern tag and the modern definition thereof is choking out the rogue-like nature of roguelikes. It is sad to say, but when the cesspit of the internet that is reddit is one of the few places that upholds the definition of a genre, that genre is well and truly dead.

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: March 29, 2019, 12:12:31 AM »

I'm not lumping together all these different games into a single genre, but rather recognizing that the elements they share are sufficient to provide interesting conversation material for people who play them.

I don't believe allowing discussion of variations to the classic formula will "kill the genre", in fact, this discussion is healthy so people never forget there is a Classic / Traditional style of roguelikes, their importance in history and that there are games keeping up more closely with their style that are being actively worked nowadays, expanding the genre in different directions.

As for the "roguelike mislabeling" issue, the most negative effect I've seen is on discoverability on platforms like Steam, it might be hard to find a traditional roguelike there, but there are alternate ways to do that, like using IRLDB, or querying for traditional roguelike in other platforms. Recently, devs have become aware of this, and have started tagging their games with the infamous rogue-lite tag.

The trouble is that anything on steam labelled as roguelite is also mislabelled as "rOgUeLiKe". the trouble is that people are blurring the lines between the tags. The trouble is that many games get tagged as roguelikes when they're simply not and people are more accepting of this definition than the actual one. When voicing why Hero Siege isnt a roguelike I've actually had assholes say "oh the permadeath aspect was never important"

THAT is whats killing the genre. If we are not careful the roguelite tag will cease and then its cesspit of mismatched games will get wrongfully lumped into the roguelike tag. Hell we've already RECENTLY had some numbnut try advertise immortal redneck here, specifically use the term roguelike in its definition when its just bloody well not. How is that not damning proof that the genre is being slaughtered like a goddamn sacrificial grid bug corpse?!

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Design / Re: What is the impact of nonsensical dungeon layouts (topological impossibilities)?

« on: March 28, 2019, 01:54:19 PM »

Dungeon layout matters but it matters in a way that effects gameplay not specifically logic, nor reasoning. Look at IVAN for example:
as your first dungeon you've got a tunnel connecting two islands that aught to be well and truly impossible by any logical sense and practical layout.

Now lets look at how dungeon layouts change your gameplay:
DCSS has long corridors which allow for intense bottlenecking of hordes of enemies. It also has some wide open spaces that allow for some unique boss fights with interesting setups. The issue with this is that empty corridors give way to the need of an "auto-explore" button. If we were to take away(or even just lessen) the corridors and the wide open spaces then many of the enemy types and amounts would need to be drastically changed by virtue of the games layout.

Dredmor however generally has small-ish rooms connecting eachother with occasional large rooms within the map. This in my opinion would not allow for DCSS's enemy types nor spawning patterns to make for fun and thus good gameplay. However it allows for the idea of the dreaded monster zoo on large scale to be an occasional "fun" encounter and it allows for doorways to cease being a "chokepoint" and start being a "blockpoint" that depends on your capacity to close the door.

Then we've got games like neoscavenger that mess with dungeon layout by messing with the grid dimensions, taking them from squares to hexes, this doesnt seem like much, but it is. Being out in the open and surrounded is no longer 4/8(depending on diagonals) attacks per turn cycle you need to soak, that then jumps to 6/12(depending on if monsters adjacent to the hexes corner count within melee striking range) which then calls for a change of strategy and changes how you need to deal with getting surrounded as well as your prevention methods.

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Player's Plaza / Re: Stupid marketing of non roguelike games

« on: March 28, 2019, 01:34:50 PM »

Great and my favorite metroidvania is Super Mario.
My favorite anime is Cory in the House.
My favorite dog breed is Clydesdale.

You see the issues there? Same damn thing with lumping roguelite and roguelike into the same category.

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Temple of the Roguelike / Re: The Temple is crumbling down...

« on: March 28, 2019, 12:08:00 PM »

Honestly I gotta agree with Krices definition. I vehemently oppose the ideal that any game with permadeath and rng elements belongs in the category. We had a conference about this in 2008. We have a proper definition. That proper definition(although unvoiced until 2008) stood for 20 damn years. If RNG and permadeath are the only parameters then Tetris is a roguelike. Hell most "roguelikes" by the modern "definition" play less like rogue than civ, SLAY(and its clones Antyoy and Wodan Die Peferung) or any other turn based strategy game that is decidedly unlike Rogue. The modern definition that people are going by is going to kill the genre.

Why do I say this? Because games like hero siege, domina, Brut@l, cultist sim and many other genre breaking titles are also being thrown into the genre. Hero siege has no permadeath unless you specifically enable it. It plays decidedly unlike rogue given its a fast paced "gauntlet/diablo blend" and its only "rOgUeLiKe" element is the fact levels/dungeons are random-ish. This is by no means a roguelike

Domina is literally a management sim with your only random element being who you fight, its always the same Colosseum. The "permadeath" aspect is irrelevant when the units that "permanently die" are 100% renewable. This is no more a roguelike than cookie clicker.

Brut@l fits the same category as hero siege but with much heavier reliance on gauntlet elements over diablo ones. It is not a roguelike.

Cultist sim is a goddamn solitaire clone with a lovecraftian story and eggtimers thrown into the mix. It is not a roguelike

To call what the commercial market calls roguelikes is to kill the very definition of the genre. As of Jan this year I personally shall not play nor pay for a game tagged or advertised as "roguelike" on any gaming platform unless it is actually /like rogue/

Find a different genre to lump your games into if you want my patronage.

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Player's Plaza / Re: Stupid marketing of non roguelike games

« on: March 18, 2019, 04:59:13 AM »

Thats the issue though Troubler. They're categorizing things as they should not be. Roguelike was and still is a sub-genre between strategy and RPG. Spelunky does not have RPG elements, and its strategy elements are far and few between. The reverse should be said of Isaac.

The issue is that genres and sub-genres are categorization tools. How do we categorize things? By including the common and excluding that which isnt. A genre that encompasses too many things is in and of itself useless due to this fact.

Isaac is no more a roguelike than snes version tetris(hey its permadeath and every piece is procedurally chosen so its gotta count right?). A sub-genre wherein a twinstick shooter, a text adventure game, a turn based strategy game, a fps game, a deck builder, a platformer and a bloody gladitorial management sim all get lumped into the same category is of literal no value. The common factor of roguelikes being that they are like rogue is simply how things aught to be simply because Rogue is the namesake.
Calling Spelunky a Roguelike is no more valid than calling Euro Truck sim a racing game or calling super mario world a MeTrOiDvAnIa

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Player's Plaza / Re: Stupid marketing of non roguelike games

« on: March 15, 2019, 08:08:15 PM »

Krice, what happened was that Spelunky began getting recognition as the roguelike that it wasnt and isnt. It pains me to say this as Spelunky is a good game but Spelunky is essentially the "patient zero" of the "miscategorization epidemic" of roguelikes. Had spelunky not come in(a largely controversial) second place in the 7DRL that caused its inception it would not have achieved the Ill-deserved "roguelike" tag alongside the well deserved hype and affection it got.

I'm not saying spelunky wasnt/isnt a good game. It is and was(RNGesus and STATan both know I put WAY too many hours into spelunky 1.1). I'm just saying it was the first leakage of a dam breaking which spewed forth dozens of mis-categorized games labelled as "roguelikes" when they just arent.