Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Game Discussion => Early Dev => Topic started by: dungeonmans on April 19, 2010, 12:47:49 AM
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Hello there! Alpha 3 of Dungeonmans is available to play. Just today I created a page for it on Roguebasin, and there's also lots of information on the site (where you can download the game)
http://www.dungeonmans.com
Dungeonmans is a graphical roguelike with a focus on action and tactical positioning. Two classes to pick from, weapon masteries, and lots of monsters to crush and treasure to loot. Each game played can send feedback to the site server, allowing Team Dungeonmans to see how people are playing and where the game needs to be balanced.
So far, it seems like Alpha 3 is a bit easier than anticipated, so if you want to crush some monsters now is a great time.
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Welcome to Rogue Temple dungeonmans! 8)
The game looks great, chock full of potential. Keep at it dev team!
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Oh man.. it's quite a hassle to run this game.
I have WinXp, after downloading it it required me to install lots of random Windows stuff and then restart my computer.. after that, I tried to run the game and I received an error (direct 3d graphic card not compatibility or something like that.. pixel shader vector shader what the hell).
Too bad it's so restrictive because it looks like a cool game.
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Skeletor: Pixel vector shader? lol that's awful. Well, the game is built via XNA, so while the installation of extra windows crap is to be expected, I'm disappointed in XNA for giving Windows XP users such a hard time. As for graphics card compatibility... the game pushes sprites around, this shouldn't be such an issue.
I'll try to fix these things up. Thanks for your patience.
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Might be a good idea to mention about it being built with XNA and such on the Roguebasin page there dungeonmans. Afterall, you'd be one of the few thus far to wrestle with it! 8)
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Afterall, you'd be one of the few thus far to wrestle with it! 8)
Huh, hadn't thought of it like that. Well you have a good point, I think I'll do that today :)
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Afterall, you'd be one of the few thus far to wrestle with it! 8)
Huh, hadn't thought of it like that. Well you have a good point, I think I'll do that today :)
Rockin'.
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Wasn't dungeonmans the name of a game in the Homestarrunner series?
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I've not tried the game, 'cause I don't want to install XNA, but screenshots and video look good (Finally another roguelike with a trailer, although it's music is a bit overdone. Together with the graphics, it looks like a parody ;) )
The claim "Crush Monsters, Get Loot" should also appeal to mainstream players with a Diablo/WoW socialisation.
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As for graphics card compatibility... the game pushes sprites around, this shouldn't be such an issue.
I think everything in XNA is 3D/DirectX. What was the reason for XNA? I've heard it makes developing easy, but still..
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Forums are full of posts from people who cannot run XNA based games on their machines. So even if it appears to make game development easy at first sight, you just buy a lot of complaints from users who then cannot play your game ... I'm not sure if this is worth it.
Some of the inital troubles seem to have been improved with recent XNA releases. The need for pixel shaders killed XNA games on many peoples computers though, as I read.
As a developer, I'd not touch XNA. It's another lockdown to the windows platform, and even a very restrictive one.
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Aye, the XNA'ish/.NET stuff can be rough depending on how it is done, you'd think SURELY a game like Labyrinthica http://www.pompipompi.net/ would run at a glance on an XP machine, but it was totally beyond my old one.
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As a developer, I'd not touch XNA. It's another lockdown to the windows platform, and even a very restrictive one.
Well, you can look at it as a lockdown to the windows platform, or you can look at it as the ability to put the game on the Xbox. I understand the limitations, that's fine. The group of people who say "I will not touch your game, it requires dirty windows code" is much smaller than the group of people who say "I can't play your game because it's just ascii and too hard."
I think a lot of people are missing out on how fun Roguelikes can be. ADOM, for example, is completely awesome. But I've seen a lot of friends play the game and say "well I don't understand it, I couldn't tell what was going on, and I died in my first fight, this isn't fun." I've seen even experienced roguelike players think they were blinded for life when really they just needed to use a special command to wipe the mud from their eyes. That's great, but it's pretty hardcore.
I think I kinda knew I'd get shit from people here because Dungeonmans isn't an ascii game that runs on some obscure build of Kujubu Linux, but that's fine.
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To answer some questions,
What was the reason for XNA? I've heard it makes developing easy, but still..
XNA allows the game to be run on the 360 with relative ease. What if Roguelikes could appeal to console gamers? Sure, it would have to be "consoled down" at first, but if more people could explore and enjoy the genre then everyone is better off.
Also, XNA doesn't make developing "easy," thank you very much :) My original decision to run with XNA was also based on a desire to learn C#.
Forums are full of posts from people who cannot run XNA based games on their machines. So even if it appears to make game development easy at first sight, you just buy a lot of complaints from users who then cannot play your game ... I'm not sure if this is worth it
What it buys complaints from is people who don't run Windows or don't want to install the XNA runtimes. Also, the game can run on the 360, which is much larger audience than you think.
(Finally another roguelike with a trailer, although it's music is a bit overdone. Together with the graphics, it looks like a parody ;) )
Hahah well that's kind of the point. It is a bit of a parody. The gameplay is serious, the game world is not.
As a developer, I'd not touch XNA.
Heh, well, as a developer who has been in the industry since 2004 and shipped multiple AAA titles, I think I'm ok with XNA.
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I think I kinda knew I'd get shit from people here because Dungeonmans isn't an ascii game that runs on some obscure build of Kujubu Linux, but that's fine.
Ascii is not required these days, but it's good to have easy install and light hardware requirements. In the best case you don't need to install anything, just load and run the game.
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XNA allows the game to be run on the 360 with relative ease. What if Roguelikes could appeal to console gamers?
THAT was the reason? Don't tell me, you are planning a commercial version?
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As a developer, I'd not touch XNA.
Heh, well, as a developer who has been in the industry since 2004 and shipped multiple AAA titles, I think I'm ok with XNA.
Good :) I'm not a game professional, maybe when I said "developer" that spawned wrong ideas. And if XNA is alright of you, being aware of the problems, that is alright for me too. I just wanted to point out what I had seen in user experiences, in case you wouldn't know - I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't know that you are a professional game developer and from that surely have your own experiences with XNA already.
I thought this is just another hobby project as so many in this place, so my answer came from a different point of view. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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I think I kinda knew I'd get shit from people here because Dungeonmans isn't an ascii game that runs on some obscure build of Kujubu Linux, but that's fine.
As you are certainly aware of, nobody here complained about Dungeonmans not being ASCII -- they just questioned XNA, and even this was not very unfriendly ;)
Have a look at Powder -- it uses SDL and runs (among others) Nintendo DS, PSP and PS3.
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I think I kinda knew I'd get shit from people here because Dungeonmans isn't an ascii game that runs on some obscure build of Kujubu Linux, but that's fine.
As for my side; you don't get shit but no feedback either because i'm someone who runs some obscure linux.
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THAT was the reason? Don't tell me, you are planning a commercial version?
You can package XNA games for free and pass them around to other users. "Commercial Version" is a bit of a misnomer. I don't think any money is going to be made off of Dungeonmans :) though there is a donate button on the site <3
There is this game which was released for three dollars on XBox Live Indie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK0AQ_eVosQ
Now, I applaud the work that went into making this title, but there are games here on ToTR for free which are incomplete yet deeper and more satisfying than this game. However, more people have seen this Dungeon Adventure than will see Frozen House, or Big Ash Monsters, or all the cool zombie / cyber / just-plain-neato roguelikes on this site.
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However, more people have seen this Dungeon Adventure than will see Frozen House, or Big Ash Monsters, or all the cool zombie / cyber / just-plain-neato roguelikes on this site.
If you refer XO owners as "people", then yes, maybe...
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I think I kinda knew I'd get shit from people here because Dungeonmans isn't an ascii game that runs on some obscure build of Kujubu Linux, but that's fine.
I don't think these sorts of comments are conductive to you getting feedback about your game.
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If you refer XO owners as "people", then yes, maybe...
Well that is an interesting opinion. So let me see if I understand ToTR's point of view:
1) XNA is too restrictive because it only runs on Windows and makes you install something.
2) XNA is a crutch used because it makes development easy.
3) XBox owners are not considered people.
Well, unfortunately, I don't agree with any of those points. I'm sorry to waste everyone's time.
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So let me see if I understand ToTR's point of view
There is no such thing as "ToTR's point of view", there are as many points of view as there are users.
The vast majority of the replies you got were courteous and meant to help you, so I suggest you don't try to find malice where there is none.
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Yikes, how'd all this acrimony pop up in the thread? :'(
In terms of Dungeon Adventure: Eh, implementation seems to have been a bit weird/shallow----sequel might well be better. ASCII Quest http://asciiquest.jadevaultgames.com/ on the other hand inspires a bit more confidence.
ToTR as a monolithic entity: Nay! Random folk mentioning things as they think to same as reasons most people do on most forums: Either honest thoughts, ramblings, just cause, or playing Devil's Advocate----none shall ever truly know! :P
Everybody is nifty around here, Krice just has a mysterious and delightful acerbic flavour somehow.....float around some other threads across the boards and I think you'll see all is well and friendly. 8)
Constructive end: Dungeonmans, how's the roadmap looking in terms of the future in terms of classes and the other misc aspects of the game yet to be fleshed out? Might there actually be some ways to get the game to run off other platforms via some trickery? I seem to remember there being such a trick for a Java RL that somehow encapsulated all one needed and thus no installs and such were necessary.
Ah also: Don't forget to update your Roguebasin entry with Update 1 and any other informative bits. Information for posterity! 8)
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Everybody is nifty around here, Krice just has a mysterious and delightful acerbic flavour somehow.....float around some other threads across the boards and I think you'll see all is well and friendly. 8)
Except me! I'm a crazy rabid ASCII defender!
Fenrir snarls and attempts to froth at the mouth, but succeeds only in drooling on himself. The great wolf relaxes his lupine features and chuckles.
Anyway, while I'll admit that graphical roguelikes are a big turn-off for me, so much so that I usually don't even try them, I'll certainly try and give Dungeonmans a go. I hope you stick around and sample all the awesome that this place has to offer.
Now I need to go look up "acrimony" and "acerbic."
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3) XBox owners are not considered people.
Perhaps not the kind of people who like roguelikes. If you try to reach XO players with a roguelike, it has to be really good. But even good roguelikes were not a commercial success (they tried it even back in 80's), because XO people wants to play simple games. On top of that you have the nerve to come here and think little of us, the actual developers of this scene.
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On top of that you have the nerve to come here and think little of us, the actual developers of this scene.
This was exactly my impression.
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I think the world of this scene and the people in it, including everyone here. There is nothing little about all the work that goes on here and there is absolutely nothing little about the people making these games.
XBoxes are in a lot of houses now. To say that none of them would enjoy a roguelike is missing out on a new fanbase. It doesn't have to mean big commercial sell out time. Again, look at Dungeon Adventure, and the upcoming Ascii Quest. "Commercial success" is a changing term. You're right that in the 80s it meant a full priced game like Dungeon Hack or something. But now a small group of indies, or even one person, can put a game on XBox live for a dollar. That feeling you had when you played Nethack or Rogue or whichever one it was for the first time, that can now reach a whole new group of people, and it doesn't take a huge team and a 60 dollar game.
I promise you, Krice, that there are people-- kids too-- who would really enjoy roguelikes but just don't know about them. It's not about pc / console / windows / linux, it's about that player with a bigass smile on his face because he just made it out of a wicked fight, or the kid pounding his forehead because he made a dumb mistake and got eaten on the 18th floor of the last dungeon.
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I think the world of this scene and the people in it, including everyone here. There is nothing little about all the work that goes on here and there is absolutely nothing little about the people making these games.
Well, then I think both sides were a bit overly sceptical and sensitive -- first some people here (incl. me!) when XNA was mentioned and you said "I knew it", afterwards you when you overinterpreted that as criticism on your game. I think we should put aside these emotional things now.
Discussing if there is a "market" for roguelikes should also not be topic in _this_ thread. Perhaps somebody (not me, as, well, XNA requires some shaders or such thing, and my crappy graphics card is one reason why I play roguelikes...) has played the alpha and can give some proper feedback?
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I think both sides were a bit overly sceptical and sensible
I think "sensitive" is the word you are looking for (sensible mean "sinnvoll").
Blasted false friends ;)
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Ido, you're right. Thank you.
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Upon a quick check, apparently the game does work on my PC. Somehow it ended...either a crash or I hit the wrong key.
Anyhow, at a glance, the "not able to equip" red text in the weapon shop overlaps with the descriptions of a 2 handed maul and other such thing. Also recall an instance of the text going outside the white box/black background border. Message dialog box gets in the way pretty badly in terms of the dungeon view, unless I missed the way to disable it if no noteworthy actions are taking place. Would do well to have a listing of feats in order of acquisition for skill points spent, or at least what the next level in it would bring to the table---once such matters actually get nailed down that is.
false friends? noo~! :P
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The log is indeed getting in the way, so here's a sneak peek at the updated UI currently running on my build at home:
http://www.dungeonmans.com/images/new_ui_layout.png
I've centralized the hero so he can at all times see 4 tiles above and below him, and move his HP (and new Stamina) vitals down to the lower part of the screen.
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That looks like a nice improvement dungeonmans---keep 'em coming! 8)
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Installing was less painful than I thought, but the game refuses to work. It stops responding when run. Hardware should be ok, OS is Windows 7.
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@Krice: Argh, I'm sorry to hear that. Mainly this is my fault for not writing a proper installer and relying on what XNA gives me. What I can suggest is this:
- uninstall the game via the control panel
- grab latest build from the site (it has some UI fixes, which is nice)
- install it by running setup.exe first, if you run the dungeonmans.application first it won't work.
I will try to have a better method of installing for Alpha 4.
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http://blogs.msdn.com/astebner/archive/2009/06/12/9740290.aspx
Use this guide to install XNA 3.0, it solved all my Dungeonmans problems.
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Thanks for the link, Chex Warrior, might help for now. However, I still like dungeonmans plans to provide a conveniant installer. ;)
People who just want to play a game developed in XNA shouldn't need to download and install the whole development stuff ;)
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People who just want to play a game developed in XNA shouldn't need to download and install the whole development stuff ;)
I agree! You should just people to run Setup.exe and it will do the rest of the work. But that isn't working for everyone, and it makes me want to stick my head in a dryer.
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Well, it's not your fault, I think ...
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The only other thing I can think of, pie in the sky as it is, would be to achieve the whole C# and .NET/mono/whatever magic in the future via porting the game to Unity3D---especially given their looming Unity 3 release should also have xbox 360 support along with just about all else under the sun.
http://unity3d.com/unity/coming-soon/unity-3
It seems to be functional in 2D situations as well, ArcEn games is shifting all their future efforts to it starting with a rather nice puzzle game called Tidalis.
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- install it by running setup.exe first, if you run the dungeonmans.application first it won't work.
I did run setup.exe first. I remember when XNA was advertised as revolution in game development. Well, here we are..
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It makes development easy, and deployment difficult. The usual MS trap, lure people into it, and once used to it, they do not want to try something else again - this case is pretty evil even, since the installation problems happen to the other people, not the developer. The developer just gets to know when he is ready with his project to be published. Until then it's all fine and dandy.
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It makes development easy, and deployment difficult.
If not for that reason I would be developing in python (with pygame or pyglet).
Awesome for the developer, not so great for the user.
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But why do so many people have setup problems? I mean, why don't XNA installers simply automatically download and install all necessary components, if not present on the computer?
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[EDIT: this comment no longer makes sense after Mario edited the previous comment :P]
Because there is no way to "simply" automatically download and install all that stuff.
At least in my case having to implement a system that downloads and installs python, pygame/pyglet & all of its dependencies on win/linux/mac (on 32 & 64 bits and on all different versions of these OSs) will probably counteract the main advantage of using it in the first place, which is making development easier.
To quote a wise man:
Shit is NOT easy (http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2009/04/have-you-ever-legalized-marijuana.html)
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I just noticed that I wrote "they" -- I meant Microsoft and their installers with this. The installers MS provides should download all the XNA stuff automatically, not the users ...
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Flash games have become popular because they need very little installation I think. many people have the flash plugin already. They just need to open the web site with the game, and can play.
I'm quite sure that this is a core part of the big success of flash games that we see lately.
I try to get a bit of that with using Java applets for my projects- but installing Java is more difficult than installing flash, and Java applets have troubles on some systems, too. But regardless of that, I think ease of installation is a key feature to promote a game, at least it helps to reach many people easily. Lazy people like me do not want to install anything, and therefore don't even get to see some of the games.
Edit: Also I'm paranoid enough to be afraid that something on my PC doesn't work anymore after installing XNA, and I'll have troubles to restore my PC to the current state. Thus I'll not install such big things like XNA on an old box like mine, until someone can assure me it's not of any danger.
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Silverlight is also surprisingly good (even on non-ms platforms).
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I think the genre can get to be known by a lot more people if successful console roguelikes are developed, and that's always good. I also think ASCII is just a minor component of a roguelike.
Python, Java, and other similar frameworks may make it harder to get to your players at first, but surprisingly they may also allow reaching more of them, as long as your game is good enough to get people into installing the required components :) dunno much about XNA though...
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Python, Java, and other similar frameworks may make it harder to get to your players at first
There is a huge practical difference between python and java - java is installed on ~85% (flash on >90%) of all computers, python on almost none except for macs and linux, where some older version is normally installed by default.
If anything using java makes it easier to get players because it's a lot easier to provide Mac & Linux versions: on tametick.com I get about 15% mac, 15% linux, 70% windows visitors according to Google Analytics.
So yeah, ignore 30% of your market at your peril ;)
I think a lot of people grossly underestimate how much more popular mac & linux (http://blog.wolfire.com/2008/12/why-you-should-support-mac-os-x-and-linux/) have become in the last 5 years - at least among RL players, which is likely a significantly different demographics than 'normal' gamers (and are relatively under-served because of all the windows-only games out there).
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In the past some of the drawing operations of the Java graphics API seemed to be very slow on Linux. At least I got feedback that some of my applets run very badly on Linux. So yes, it allows to reach more people, but not all have a good experience.
I'm not sure if the current Java versions do better, or if just he average computer nowadays is so much faster that fewer people have such problems. My impression is that Java is good for many types of games these days.
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python on almost none except for macs and linux
Besides python, being the best of all in everything, is really bad in backwards (or forwards) compability. It's ridiculous in modern times that you need the exact major version of python the program is using. I have three major versions installed, because I need python for Blender and some other programs.
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Game refuses to work. It sucessfully downloading some stuff but crashes afterwards. This happens both on XP and 7
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ALl im going to say is good luck with your roguelike, I have an okay PC so I will try it.
To be honest though guys I can maybe just a tad understand why the guy perhaps took issue with some comments I mean look at it this way,
The guy develops a graphical roguelike and from what people that tried it say it looks damn good and plays
Now to get to that stage the guy obviously has a clue code wise and I assume he maybe takes just a tiny bit issue with it being implied that a project he probably spent a load of time on and had to ead tons of stuff as well as learn like heaps getting implied as easy. (Its like those people that say developing a roguelike is easy, well yeah if you constitute a roguelike as printing a static room and some of the more easy initial steps but I wouldnt say neither was easy if the end product is something of a decent and complete standard) - still its kinda like if you are developing you have to just take the flak as right or wrong as it may be and maybe reaction was a bad thing on his part in terms of dmging pr for his game? If so Its a lesson learned for me should I ever develop something like this
I just want to see more rls on the scene though :D more devs the better! anyways gl all!
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I'm with you, Conal.
Dungeonmans, I downloaded and installed the game, intuitively ran setup before trying to run the application, and everything went fine. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones ;). Windows 7 64, FWIW.
As to the game, it put a great big smile on my face. I like the self-consciousness of it all; too much parody can become oppressive, but the gameplay itself is pretty straight, so you've got a nice counterbalance there. I like the horribly cheesy sprite choices for the PC and I also liked that the game was very easy to dive into. Quests dropped right into my lap and I was off toward the first dungeon. Made it to the second level, got cocky, and got killed by a lizardman captain.
So, thoughts:
-Hilarious stats.
-I like the skill tree system. I feel like I have a good deal of structure to work with, which puts me at ease. Too much complexity can create a kind of bewildering and tedious *band experience (only my own opinion), while too much rigidity makes one feel like the game ought to just go and play itself. This is a nice medium as it stands, and I'm looking forward to an expansion of available skill trees.
-I was pleasantly surprised by the variety of monsters in the early dungeon, including a couple of ranged fighters and a berserker. The more ACTUAL variety you have in terms of gameplay and player approach to monsters, the more robust Dungeomans will be.
-My third character, a fightermans, found the fat quest-giver to be in an inaccessible location. His entry door was sealed away by someone else's back wall. This character was also spammed by incessant warnings on the second level of the dungeon that "NPC: chicken has no allegiance" or something. No chicken in sight. Last but not least, upon returning from the dungeon to the overworld, the game crashed.
-My attempt to play a wizard class ended pretty quickly, and this was due to frustration with the number of keystrokes required to attack an enemy at range. I would strongly urge a more streamlined system of default firing (Crawl-esque?)
Overall, I am extremely impressed and am very much looking forward to the future of dungeonmans. You devs are doing a helluva job.