Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Development => Design => Topic started by: Krice on May 07, 2016, 08:58:03 AM
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I have difficulties to decide if "info line" is a good idea. It's a line of text at the bottom of the screen showing context sensitive information about stuff like when you mouse hover on a strip of items (belt items) to see what they are, or simply move on tiles to look at them without pressing any mouse button or key. On the other hand it doesn't work at all with keyboard, it's really only mouse option so you would need also something for keyboard users. It's of course possible, but adds more commands for look, check belt items etc. There is something appealing in info line idea, but I don't know. What are your thoughts about this subject? I would like to tap into your infinite wisdom about this dilemma.
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I am a big fan of mouse over tool tips, either displayed in a status bar like you describe or as a popup.
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Nice thing to have. Myself I am unable to use any new program if it doesn't offer such functionality. Make it as developed as you can. As of keyboard support, many ideas can be "stolen" from MS Windows, where you can use keyboard for virtually every action available with mouse (at least until Windows 7, not sure about the current situation :-)).
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I really like things like info lines, because I hate not having information that the character would have. I like the challenge to be making the best choices with all the information, not trying to figure out what the necessary information is. If you have to spend half the game figuring out what everything is, count me out.
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For info text that will appear when you mouse-over some element on the map, it would feel natural to me to implement that as a floating tooltip next to the cursor. After all, that's the place on the screen where the player will be directing his attention anyway.
As always,
Minotauros
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This "info line" is also called "status bar", and it has been useful since kinda forever in GUI (and shell?) applications ...
If you'll have mouse cursor, do it, can't hurt.
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This "info line" is also called "status bar", and it has been useful since kinda forever in GUI
I think often status bar information is not useful. I've seen it on some programs, but I never look at it, because it doesn't provide any information I need. Maybe an exception is Ableton Live (DAW) which does use it more like I'm planning to.
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it would feel natural to me to implement that as a floating tooltip
Tooltips can be annoying. At least in web pages they are (Youtube..). Besides I realized that you can use the bottom line for regular (keyboard) look command, kind of like reserve looking messages for that area which removes them from the regular message buffer.
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I don`t mind mouseovers in roguelikes as long as it`s possible to obtain the same info via keyboard without much fuss, which sadly is not always the case.
I much prefer playing with keyboard only and having to move my hand to another device every now and then is quite jarring.
It shouldn`t be too difficult: just make a decent "look/examine" function and also display the info line by default in all other interactions like inventory items, belt, paper dolls, etc.
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I much prefer playing with keyboard only and having to move my hand to another device every now and then is quite jarring
That's why I'm trying to fit in mouse without making it something you have to use. There is even an option to completely turn off mouse so you won't even see the mouse cursor.
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I like Status Bars, I've put one in my game for now, might delete it later.
Its mostly for testing purposes now.
I would like to put in a Console so I can see a list of Debug.Log messages, not just one line.
With some applications when you get skilled with it, a status bar doesn't provide useful info sometimes.
If the info is something that could change, like inventory items then that's good.
If its just a tool tip style reminding you what button you are on, its good for a while, but then becomes useless.
Maybe there are different types of status messages and some can be turned off.
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I would like to put in a Console so I can see a list of Debug.Log messages, not just one line.
It doesn't work like that.
If its just a tool tip style reminding you what button you are on, its good for a while, but then becomes useless.
It's not like that. Read the first message of this thread. Then go fuck yourself.
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I would like to put in a Console so I can see a list of Debug.Log messages, not just one line.
It doesn't work like that.
Yours doesnt work like that.
I was referring to my game.
If its just a tool tip style reminding you what button you are on, its good for a while, but then becomes useless.
It's not like that. Read the first message of this thread. Then go fuck yourself.
I was talking about several possibilities of operation, some good, some bad, not what you intend specifically.
Perhaps you should read my post more carefully, moron.
There is something appealing in info line idea, but I don't know. What are your thoughts about this subject? I would like to tap into your infinite wisdom about this dilemma.
It seemed you were looking for general thoughts on the subject, thats what I provided.
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I was referring to my game.
Which clearly has nothing to do with this subject. I know some people can be really keen about their own game, but you should really open a dedicated thread for your game.
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This thread is just a big hate!
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Think I'm going to keep the info line for now, it doesn't seem to be too bad. Another option could be that each screen area would have info line displayed possibly on top left of the area. So in case of gameview when you hover on tiles it would display the name on top left corner of the gameview, displaying also a background for fonts, or some kind of transparent background possibly, making font easier to read but also not drawing over tiles completely. That solution would be slightly more like "tool tip" type where the text appears on the mouse location.
Or maybe each area could have a dedicated line of text for the information. I kind of like that idea more.
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When I tried to divide the info line to three slots for each area I realized it's just too complicated and confusing. Other areas than gameview doesn't even need additional information if you display it with some item. Gameview is different, so I have to think about it more. It's possible that click to look is better after all, and the text should be displayed on message window.
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This thread is just a big hate!
Fascinating strategy, though, to hijack one's own thread by flaming the responses, and going on to continue writing irrelevant posts that noone will bother to read.
As always,
Minotauros
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Fascinating strategy, though, to hijack one's own thread by flaming the responses, and going on to continue writing irrelevant posts that noone will bother to read.
I'd like to hear what kind of problems you have in your life. Maybe we can help.
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Aww, Krice, that's really sweet of you. I'll send you private message with my problems and how you can help :-*
As always,
Minotauros
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(in all earnesty, though: if you could come over an watch the kids for a few hours, that'd be great.)
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This fight looks like Donald Trump vs. McMahon
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Not sure if this is a right simile. More like Gennady Golovkin vs any contender (ie: no contest).
Seriously though, I can`t fathom why is one person allowed to have a huge contribution to this board being as quiet and unpopulated as it currently is. Having unpopular or controversial opinions is one thing - nothing wrong with it - but being hostile and arrogant without any merit at all is something else entirely.
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eriously though, I can`t fathom why is one person allowed to have a huge contribution to this board being as quiet and unpopulated as it currently is.
Don't be such a social justice warrior. It doesn't work here, at least it shouldn't. The reason is that there are about 20 roguelike developers on planet earth and some of them aren't even here writing messages which is a waste of time anyway.
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Hehe, I always wonder why some people think that "social justice warrior" is supposed to be an insult. Is there something wrong with social justice? :D
Anyway, this ole chestnut has nothing to do with the situation here, which regards simple behaviour rules on a public forum. The fact that you live in a fantasy bubble, in which you`re a leader of a surviving bunch of true RL devs, is also irrelevant. On most other boards, you`d be slapped with warnings and eventually banned, if these didn`t work.
Here, we have the "obnoxious uncle" forum syndrome - a guy who`s been around forever is allowed to say anything because he`s now like a piece of furniture.
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a guy who`s been around forever is allowed to say anything because he`s now like a piece of furniture.
That's your (wrong) opinion. Don't you see that you are the problem. You didn't say anything interesting, you simply attacked me using "social justice" as your shield to hide behind. That's wrong with SJW. It's like vegans, they say everone else is evil, because they don't eat only plants. Great argument, don't you think. It's a nazi argument: jews are evil, because we say so.
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Krice, you are rambling. First of all, this isn't one guy's opinion. You've gotten many complaints over the years, even ppl quitting the forums after arguing with you. I actually like what you write about rls, but what's with all the random flaming? Second, noone is saying you are evil for some random reason, just that you are sometimes acting like a complete ass.
As always,
Minotauros
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You didn't say anything interesting, you simply attacked me using "social justice" as your shield to hide behind.
I don`t have to say anything "interesting" because this is not some learned argument. I`m not hiding behind any shields either - it`s you who`s jumping on the SJW bandwagon - because I don`t mind admitting "attacking" you (if that`s what pointing out your obnoxious behaviour is). You see, I`m not as nice as some folk here and have no problem whatsoever with telling somebody to go fuck themselves. Especially those who doggedly attack others on a whim and when called out for it don`t even have the balls to admit it, but instead play the victim card. Pathetic.
But yeah, now I`m rambling, though hopefully it`s not as bad as the Nazi Vegans vibe. Truth is, I don`t really care about "Krice" - a two bit troll (sorry, an esteemed RL dev) after all, my issue is more with whomever is supposed to moderate this board, board which I like very much, but which is also fairly dead. And tolerating abusive behaviour, especially in a place so small where it stands out as a sore thumb, is definitely one of the reasons for that.
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You've gotten many complaints over the years, even ppl quitting the forums after arguing with you.
Stop being such crybabies. Who even does that, quit forums or social media, because someone said something mean? What kind of person is that, just think about it. Well maybe they should quit internet and fucking grow up first.
Besides I'm being attacked for no reason more than often. I get it, some people can't handle it properly when someone is simply better and actually doing something they wish they could do.
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As much as I enjoy BBS politics, I'm far more interested in the fate of this Info Line character.
Info Line seems utterly dead, having been chopped into three pieces then disowned by its parent, but have we really heard the last of the Info Line? Mightn't further developments demand Info Line's resurrection? Perhaps the transient Message Box will bring Info Line back from the dead as a slavish companion?
Will keyboards ever measure up to mice in terms of cursing at look targets? Is the plight of this Info Line caused by Roguelikes themselves straddling the gap between line based and graphical displays? These and more thrilling questions remain.
With nary an animated GIF to sate suspense or spurn speculation, we wait with baited breath for the next installation of 'Info Line Idea'.
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I'm far more interested in the fate of this Info Line
I'm probably using it in "look mode" and it's appearing on top of the gameview, not as separate line. Yet I think there should be something at the bottom of the screen, since there is a 5-line message view at the top of the screen. Or maybe messages could be placed there?
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Kind of unfair to blame Krice for people leaving a low activity forum that deals in unfocused rambles about games that mostly don't exist.
re: The OP, I've been wrestling with the question of whether to implement an info bar in Doritos Presents: Tortilla Chip Simulator for literally decades.
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Yep, guess I was just confused by the sign on the door which says "Temple Of The Roguelike". Must be a metaphor or something.
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Kind of unfair to blame Krice for people leaving a low activity forum that deals in unfocused rambles about games that mostly don't exist.
Why don't you shut the fuck up about that. You don't have to constantly remind us real developers that roguelikes can take a long time to create. Unless of course you are an asshole. Then it's understandable I guess.
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Yep, guess I was just confused by the sign on the door which says "Temple Of The Roguelike". Must be a metaphor or something.
More of an aspirational thing afaict. [edit: This is a bit unfair... the announcements section is actually good.]
@Krice: You're right, let's get down to some real roguelike development talk here: What programming language do you think someone should learn to best implement an info line in a roguelike game?
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Kind of unfair to blame Krice for people leaving a low activity forum that deals in unfocused rambles about games that mostly don't exist.
Why don't you shut the fuck up about that. You don't have to constantly remind us real developers that roguelikes can take a long time to create. Unless of course you are an asshole. Then it's understandable I guess.
That you haven't been banned for your rude and boorish behaviour is, frankly, beyond me.
How's Karduria coming?
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This time I agree with Krice, it takes a good amount of time to even make a simple mod to games (tested by me).
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Remember when I was talking about the message area. I decided to move it to bottom part of the screen, but then upper part was looking a bit dumb, because it had nothing. Then I had an idea to make one top line for newest message and move rest of them to bottom message area with 5 lines as a backlog which is always visible. Now I have a classic Nethack top line for messages, but with modern backlog so you don't need to press -more- or check out messages from a backlog (unless there are more than 6 messages during a turn in which case you can read them by pressing 'm').
And I can use that top line for temporary displaying info when hovering on some areas.
http://paulkp.mbnet.fi/pics/gameview.jpg
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This time I agree with Krice, it takes a good amount of time to even make a simple mod to games (tested by me).
I don't disagree, but there are good amounts of time and bad amounts of time if you follow me...
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I don't disagree, but there are good amounts of time and bad amounts of time if you follow me...
Since you don't have experience on programming you simply don't realize how things are. There are examples of game projects that took several years, some even close to ten years, to finish and they were made by a team of professionals. Now imagine just one man trying to work on a demanding game project. It's not easy, it's far from easy. Besides most of us have other things in life than programming, we are not professionals who get paid to create games and can 100% concentrate on that. But hey, I know you can't imagine all that, because the way you act. The first thing you should realize is how ignorant you are. Then you could move on to become a better version of yourself.
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How do english-speakers call trolls which are so well-fed (or lazy) they stop being subtle? In russian they are called 'fat' trolls. Some are so fat they do not fit into the thread anymore and practically ooze out of your screen. This talk about professionals and long-term development is so fat it leaves smears on the screen each time it comes up x_x.
Actually, I'm genuinely curious about the term. The russian one is more or less language-specific with 'толстый' ('fat') being the simple antonym to 'тонкий' ('thin') which is 'subtle' in russian. I've googled a bit but couldn't find any direct analog.
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How do english-speakers call trolls which are so well-fed (or lazy) they stop being subtle? In russian they are called 'fat' trolls. Some are so fat they do not fit into the thread anymore and practically ooze out of your screen. This talk about professionals and long-term development is so fat it leaves smears on the screen each time it comes up x_x.
Actually, I'm genuinely curious about the term. The russian one is more or less language-specific with 'толстый' ('fat') being the simple antonym to 'тонкий' ('thin') which is 'subtle' in russian. I've googled a bit but couldn't find any direct analog.
Well, trolls are fun anyways.
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How do english-speakers call trolls which are so well-fed (or lazy) they stop being subtle? […] The russian one is more or less language-specific with 'толстый' ('fat') being the simple antonym to 'тонкий' ('thin') which is 'subtle' in russian.
I've never heard a specific word for this in English, but I guess "blatant trolling" fits the bill. Maybe there exists an official trollological term. With regards to our own flame-bot, though, I sometimes suspect he's simply being "thick" ;)
As always,
Minotauros
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*in extremely Krice voice* "Greetings fellow computer programming experts!"
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When I started my project 20 years ago I was as ignorant as anyone else. I knew I was ok at programming and I had done some small games before. Like many I had an idea that a roguelike will probably take couple of years to do... now, 20 years later I'm only slightly better at making a guess when it's going to be ready. This is the "magic" of large scale projects. So many beginners think that if their 7DRL is 10K lines of code, then 100K lines of a bigger roguelike will "obviously" only take 10x more time to complete.
There are couple of ways to react to reality when it hits. Often the moment when you realize the scope of the task is when you have started and are well on the way to create the game engine. At some point it will be clear that it's not 10x, it's closer to like 100x more work. Often people will simply stop there and make up excuses about their real life issues etc. They then proceed to "know" that they would have been able to create the game. The other way is not to give up, but grow up as a person to understand more about the reality of large scale game programming.
People who give up are always going to be bitter about it, but they can't admit the facts, they rather attack real game developers in forums and try to make fun of them when the development is taking realistic amount of time (several years). They can't accept it, because the way they try to prevent a mental breakdown that could follow if they would have to face the reality.
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Hm, yeah, reminds of The Shadow over Innsmouth. Sometimes facing reality can be mind-bending experience.
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When I started my project 20 years ago I was as ignorant as anyone else. I knew I was ok at programming and I had done some small games before. Like many I had an idea that a roguelike will probably take couple of years to do... now, 20 years later I'm only slightly better at making a guess when it's going to be ready. This is the "magic" of large scale projects. So many beginners think that if their 7DRL is 10K lines of code, then 100K lines of a bigger roguelike will "obviously" only take 10x more time to complete.
There are couple of ways to react to reality when it hits. Often the moment when you realize the scope of the task is when you have started and are well on the way to create the game engine. At some point it will be clear that it's not 10x, it's closer to like 100x more work. Often people will simply stop there and make up excuses about their real life issues etc. They then proceed to "know" that they would have been able to create the game. The other way is not to give up, but grow up as a person to understand more about the reality of large scale game programming.
People who give up are always going to be bitter about it, but they can't admit the facts, they rather attack real game developers in forums and try to make fun of them when the development is taking realistic amount of time (several years). They can't accept it, because the way they try to prevent a mental breakdown that could follow if they would have to face the reality.
why don't you just release what you've done so far
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why don't you just release what you've done so far
Why release an unfinished game? Besides, I already did it and found out it was idiotic. The ancient release version (it's before I started using C++) of Kaduria is still floating around on internet somewhere, but I doubt it will work unless some kind of emulation is used, because it's so old it was using I think VGA 320x400 special screen mode. That's some old technology!
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That you haven't been banned for your rude and boorish behaviour is, frankly, beyond me.
I try to avoid unneccessary personal attacks, that's why I guess. When I say some game isn't a roguelike, it's not really a personal attack against the developer. I firmly believe that we need to look at roguelike projects in critical way, both our own projects and everything else being released.
However I feel kind bad saying that mushroom is ignorant, but it's more a realistic observation than anything else. And it may have a positive outcome if mushroom starts to make his own roguelike just to see how hard it actually is.
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Wow. Sympatico, man. I mean, for example, when I say Krice's game isn't real and you can tell from his lack of anything substantive to say about roguelike games, that's not a personal attack! You gotta apply a critical eye to claims people make about their alleged projects.
Just bein' realistic here guys...
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why don't you just release what you've done so far
I googled it and found a download for 0.4.5 version of Kaduria, from years ago.
It was stashed in a public Google Drive titled "Roguelike Archive", which includes other since-taken-down games like "Warp Rogue".
Here's the link to the 'drive if you care, the download works in windows 10.
https://b04b18ee9cbabeab8fc2e4b40722d201dccd8a77.googledrive.com/host/0B2SRk3wthlxFSlJWbmhGUkduWlU/Kaduria/ (https://b04b18ee9cbabeab8fc2e4b40722d201dccd8a77.googledrive.com/host/0B2SRk3wthlxFSlJWbmhGUkduWlU/Kaduria/)
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I googled it and found a download for 0.4.5 version of Kaduria, from years ago.
It was stashed in a public Google Drive titled "Roguelike Archive", which includes other since-taken-down games like "Warp Rogue".
Here's the link to the 'drive if you care, the download works in windows 10.
https://b04b18ee9cbabeab8fc2e4b40722d201dccd8a77.googledrive.com/host/0B2SRk3wthlxFSlJWbmhGUkduWlU/Kaduria/ (https://b04b18ee9cbabeab8fc2e4b40722d201dccd8a77.googledrive.com/host/0B2SRk3wthlxFSlJWbmhGUkduWlU/Kaduria/)
apart from combat seemingly not working at all, it's a reasonably good start of a project
i got to admit, from the way Krice talks about the Roguelike Legacy, i'm surprised that it isn't an ascii game
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when I say Krice's game isn't real and
That and when people say I'm a troll.. you have noticed that I never call anyone a troll. That's because I'm a better person than they are. Making a troll non-argument is not only ancient, it's a way to downplay another human being, to say that his opinions don't matter at all. You know who also downplay other people? Well, racists do that, for example. So next time you call someone a troll remember that you are on a same level with racists.
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Making a troll non-argument is not only ancient, it's a way to downplay another human being, to say that his opinions don't matter at all.
That would be in contrast to, say, accusing forum members of being bots, or downright telling them to fuck off?
As always,
Minotauros
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That would be in contrast to, say, accusing forum members of being bots, or downright telling them to fuck off?
I only accuse bots of being bots, not forum members. And fuck off only means you care about someone's opinions a lot.
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And fuck off only means you care about someone's opinions a lot.
And this is why I think you should join the Brikwars forum, everyone really cares about each other.
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when I say Krice's game isn't real and
That and when people say I'm a troll.. you have noticed that I never call anyone a troll. That's because I'm a better person than they are. Making a troll non-argument is not only ancient, it's a way to downplay another human being, to say that his opinions don't matter at all. You know who also downplay other people? Well, racists do that, for example. So next time you call someone a troll remember that you are on a same level with racists.
When you think about it, Krice is pretty much like indigenous peoples in the global south who have been mercilessly exploited and brutalized for centuries by racist colonialists and capitalists.
I suppose I should walk back my claims re: the un-reality of KriceRL. It's not so much that I doubt any code exists as that Krice claims up and down that he has surpassed prominent existing works, say for example nethack and crawl, and constantly talks trash to this effect, while making no substantial releases for decades and having only the most vague possible things to say about roguelikes, game design, programming, etc. My prediction is that there will never be a substantial release because he knows very well that he can never measure up to his talk or, more damningly, the games he favorably compares his work to.
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Krice claims up and down that he has surpassed prominent existing works
Yeah, about that.. the truth is that it's easy to surpass them. And the reason is quite obvious if you think of it, since most roguelikes are deep in the past. Nethack for example, it hasn't changed a lot since.. when? It's practically the same game it was 20 years ago. ADOM is just a slightly extended version of Nethack. The whole concept of roguelikes is so ancient and many developers think it should remain like that. I don't agree with that. That's why it's easy to surpass them. And I'm not even doing anything special, just thinking that there can be something else than copying 1:1 old roguelikes like everyone seems to do.
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The whole concept of roguelikes is so ancient and many developers think it should remain like that. I don't agree with that. That's why it's easy to surpass them. And I'm not even doing anything special, just thinking that there can be something else than copying 1:1 old roguelikes like everyone seems to do.
I agree the roguelike genre needs a few shots in the arm. In some cases it's happening as many games become popular by being less roguelike than roguelike-lites and borrowing only a few roguish features. Popularizing the RL labeling (even when incorrectly applied) has attracted some new roguelike devs interested in making what's old new again.
I'd disagree that it's easy to surpass long running projects like Nethack. It may be easy to come up with better designs, like this Info Line Idea (now with visible history), or Gods that employ Machine Learning, etc; However, at some point one has to factor in all the dev hours it takes to get something as complete as one of the big old games out of the dungeon and released. Therein lies the "difficulty"; Even more so for One Man Army development teams.
The big old roguelike projects have had the benefit of having many devs and/or starting out modifying a working game (one way to get devs), or at the least borrowing heavily from an existing working design (but forever being a slave to past design decisions). There's a reason so many devs start out (re)making a crusty "classic" roguelike, and there's nothing wrong with that. It seems impossible for most devs to avoid coming up with fresh ideas while working on any old project, whether they can make them a reality is another story.
For instance, here is the W.I.P. tile sheet for the Roguelike that Derek Yu was developing (https://i.sli.mg/I2Wyv2.png) when he came up with the idea for Spelunky and made that instead. I personally wouldn't say that Spelunky surpassed Nethack or ADoM as a roguelike since it's so far from the original genre and is much closer to Notch's Infinite Mario (https://github.com/BillyWM/Infinite-Mario) than a RL, IMHO. It's the extreme example of adding new things to a roguelike (so much that it's not a RL anymore). If only more devs didn't pander to the Fakebook generation with such dumbed down gameplay we might get more innovations in the hardcore RL genre.
It's hard to compare any solo project to a decades old existing game. 1 Man Army successes seem to be at the cost of neutering much roguelikeness. Personally, I'd avoid spreading FUD about ambitious solo projects. They rarely materialize because of the time and effort required to climb that mountain, not due to any fault of the developer (except for being ambitious). Props to the "starving artist" devs that actually try to pull it off. We can use all the dedicated souls we can get.
P.S. I like shy Info Lines that autohide but aren't so timid they disappear before I'm done checking them out.
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I'd disagree that it's easy to surpass long running projects like Nethack.
It's easy, but more like in concept level. In practice it's hard to create a large roguelike game, as we have seen many times. But even if you had only a plan of a game it can still be better than any existing roguelike. The way Mushie reacts to conceptual games is typical for american people. They want actual results, something they can hold in their hands. Otherwise it doesn't exist. It's funny, but americans are so material people.
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It's like the Russell's teapot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot). Here is an imaginary game no one can see because reasons, now try to prove it doesn't surpass the ADOM =)
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It's the extreme example of adding new things to a roguelike (so much that it's not a RL anymore). If only more devs didn't pander to the Fakebook generation with such dumbed down gameplay we might get more innovations in the hardcore RL genre.
I really agree with this. It's true that RL's need some new blood - whether that's going by people or just ideas. But at heart, an RL should play like single-player fantasy chess. The kind of game that emphasizes planning and making hard decisions, dealing with random tactical problems, etc.
Too many modern RL devs or modern "RL" players will come from other genres of game and know nothing about how to beat or at least have fun in, a traditional roguelike. Too many things are disagreeable to them.
So following the solipsistic nature of what you term "Fakebook people", they decide that they are the arbiters of what is GOOD and what is NOT - and set out to reform the RL genre.
Thus our new devs and our new players, our " new blood" and "ideas" are actually aiming to steer the RL away from its own tenets and into those of other genres, rather than strengthen its "traditional" gameplay - all because audiences want to play in their own element.
And you have many examples of this, too. Spelunky, which adds platforming, so platform players have more fun in an RL. Binding of Isaac, so shooters can have more fun in an RL. Necrodancer, so Rhythm-game players can have more fun in an RL. But none of these "Roguelites" are designed for RL-players to have more fun in an RL.
And each one simultaneously obfuscates the genre-defining challenges presented in a traditional RL by forcing a test on your reflexes, timing, or coordination.
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Ragging on "fakebook generation" is nice and easy, but to me it seems rather misguided - after all who`s to say that if we were born in certain age we wouldn`t be a part of it? And it is certainly pointless: those imaginary culprits won`t care a jot.
I too would love to click on a news item about a new roguelike game on some mainstream site and see it describing a traditional RL instead of a 100 000th Isaac clone. However, my belief is that trying to fight this new wave is our version of tilting at windmills. Instead we should promote the core elements that made the Majors great and explain to newcomers why it is so. And also support and celebrate those who still keep working on the, ahem, "hardcore" RLs.
As it is though, it`s just another day here and another person told to fuck off (http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=5090.msg47000#msg47000). For the record, I never maintained that Krice is the sole reason why this forum is tumbleweed-strewn: there are a few factors contributing and some are just a function of the current situation: niche genre, old school attitude, sometime harsh critique - not necessarily bad things.
But whoever thinks that bunker mentality and arrogant front will help the cause, they`re kidding themselves. The kids will just move on, streaming around this place like US did with those small Japanese island-fortresses in WW2. And some of the "true" RL devs won`t bother coming here either, because of the bad rep.
Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.
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How nice that this thread can continue to live on and shine its light :) :P
I just wanted to mention that when I wrote:
ppl quitting the forums after arguing with […]
I wasn't making a general observation to blame Krice for scarce traffic here, but rather had in mind one or two isolated instances of people explicitly claiming this as their reason before leaving. And I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, and sure someone who quits over a flame might grow a thicker skin, but why flame in the first hand, and all that.
To more recent comments: Roguelikes have always been a niche genre. The main difference today seems to be that a we see a lot of games called "Roguelikes" that are mostly borrowing traits from traditional/actual RLs. Yet I don't think that is hurting the genre per se. There are still developers working on "proper" RLs, and new players coming in, slowly as ever. Nothing new in complaints about the younger generations; and yet, each period produces a lot of intelligent and disciplined people who bring refined ideas and works. The fact that RLs continue to exist – this silly thing resembling at first glance just a lot of letters moving across the screen – and continue as a subculture, is making possible those impossibly huge and wacky projects, some of which come to fruition, even. From Dwarf Fortress to Cult to URR to Kaduria … God knows if Kaduria ever will see a release. I know for certain that I would be one of many who'd be very curious to try it if that day comes …
If I could think of a possible pitfall in working on such a long-term project, it would be that you risk becoming outdated before your actual release. I came to think of Danish Per Højholt's novel Auricula, which he wrote over several decades (whilst publishing other books on the side). When it finally arrived in the 00's, it became an instant classic, being a genuinely great book, but it felt as if it was published 20 years too late. I'm not aiming this comment on anyone in particular, btw ;) But looking back at Squirm, my own game discontinued 5 years ago, I think it had some good systems and content, but there is a lot of design decisions I'd have done differently today, because of how the genre has evolved. We'll see how my current cowboy-RL pans out, but I'm glad to have low stakes in it, just working slowly and seeing what comes. After several years of passive development, it's still a very unkempt beast, that can be taken in almost any direction.
Excuse the rant, as always,
Minotauros
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I never maintained that Krice is the sole reason why this forum is tumbleweed-strewn
Roguelikes are like bodybuilding in competition level - it will never become mainstream.
Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.
DF is like Minecraft of roguelikes - trendy and programmed by a rich douchebag.
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But whoever thinks that bunker mentality and arrogant front will help the cause, they`re kidding themselves.
Funny thing, but I still visit the same local BBS I used as a kid. It was full of old geezers which are mostly dead now, but the bunker mentality has kept the BBS alive while iteration after iteration of ICQ, Yahoo Chat, Friendster, Myspace, etc. have blossomed and wilted, like so many tool-tip triggered Info Lines. Not that I think this place should be a bunker, but just that RLs have always been niche and never appealed to the unwashed masses. Social people played all their video games at arcades, the masses had an Intellivision or other console, etc. while RL players dabbled on "limited" terminals at university or at home on P.C.s that were more expensive than consoles. The "Muh Graphics" folks were around bashing Info Lines even in the 8bit era, see also: the perpetually undead Demoscene. I think your rose colored glasses might need some more tint. RLs are doing better than ever. Whether this is due to the "bunker mentality" or despite it is moot (in both UK and US meanings of the word).
The kids will just move on, streaming around this place like US did with those small Japanese island-fortresses in WW2. And some of the "true" RL devs won`t bother coming here either, because of the bad rep.
Most kids are childish impulsive spoiled brats, esp. when it comes to the games they say they "love" but only DL the demo, play it once and then never open the app again. (http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/16-percent-of-mobile-userstry-out-a-buggy-app-more-than-twice/) RLs are expressly designed NOT for that type of mentality. No one is surprised that toddlers hate Backgammon. And yet that ancient game is still around, just as good as ever, with more players now than ever before, and despite its terrible Metacritic score. To say nothing of chess...
One hacker social engineering tool is called the "social filter". A social filter is a porous barrier to entry that when exposed to the flow of persons naturally screens out all but a desired set of individuals. A social filter typically works passively, usually to select for people most susceptible to the sort of influence the engineer wants to wield. Layers of filters can be applied gently so that only those with a very specific mindset are targeted. There are naturally occurring social filters too. The nature of roguelikes gameplay is a sort of social filter. It's folly to compare the level of attention that classic RL gameplay attracts to that of games with dumbed down gameplay designed to have as little filter as possible and thus ensnare the greatest number of general public (who mostly abhor the cerebral exercise oldschool-ish RL's demand). You can't expect to pack an entire screen worth of data into a single Info Line, nor should you expect all gamers to enjoy roguelikes.
Point being: The foolish foxes will always pass by and shun our delicious grapes. Such is the RL social filter. Just exposing more people to RLs is all it takes to cast our net. What we should be aiming to catch is more devs who will work on classic / hardcore / traditional RL gameplay. Unfortunately when motivated by money any perceived barriers to entry come crashing down and the result is a stunted RL, Roguelike-lite, or even more distant descendant that exhibits only minimal commonalties with classic RL gameplay that use heretical icons in place of a traditional Info Line.
Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.
To be fair there's no 'Temple of the Roguelike' game to attract players and their eyeballs and fingers. There hasn't been a kickstarter scale advertising adventure with roguetemple in the title. Those games forums were able to apply their filter more broadly because they could use game content as bait. You have to come hunting for the entrance to Roguetemple, with an open mind to new Info Line ideas, and hungry to expend your hunger clock further on discussion alone.
If official DF and Cataclysm discussion subforums were here instead then this forum would be buzzing too. Players buzz around the game they like. I think there could be ways to improve readership and participation here but the implementation would require so many Info Lines that they'd be more of an Info Block and thus beyond the scope of this thread.
That said, I see Krice and others here as part of a social filter. We may actually be better off with more Krices. Linus Torvalds is notorious for his scathing criticism of idiocy. This is a social filter against those who would be offended, as are the zany Linux kernel names. (http://www.linuxandlife.com/2012/06/weird-names-of-linux-kernels.html) Time and again we have seen the permanently offended gain a foothold and then destroy a community around a software project, and the project itself too. Mozilla is in the death throes of such an internal battle of the crybullies, and it sadly shows in their browser since key talent is jumping ship. Many people have Ragequit the Linux kernel development community over taking a flaming from Linus, and that's a good thing. They were thin skinned spoiled brats who threw a tantrum for not getting their way; The filters are working as intended.
Even if you think Krice only a negative influence, a roguelike fan should be acquainted with taking the bad with the good. Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin. A forum without a troll to keep our guards raised is ripe for subversion by malevolent social engineers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gnpCqsXE8g) who secretly seek destruction or despotic control but peddle their thought policing in the guise of promoting a "nice safe space that's welcoming to all" (except those "rude" boys they banned for wrongthink).
First they came for the trolls, but I did not comment because I was not trolling.
Then they came for the rude boys, but I did not comment because I was not rude or a boy.
Then they came for the Info Liners, but I did not comment because I prefer stat bars.
When they came for me there was no one left to comment.
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When I first started dropping in around here, a couple of Krice's posts caught me off guard, and I couldn't help but wonder why he wasn't banned...Since then, I've been in far more close-minded and toxic places in the real world and on the internet, and I've very much decided the world is far better place without behaviour police at all. Getting your feelings hurt, especially by some random stranger on the internet, is a rather huge character liability IMHO, and one that we should stop encouraging people to have.
Krice, I like the info line, but does it really have to be up there? Why not give it a little border and keep it with the other text? I find it a bit tedious to snap back and forth across the screen.
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Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin. A forum without a troll to keep our guards raised is ripe for subversion by malevolent social engineers who secretly seek destruction or despotic control but peddle their thought policing in the guise of promoting a "nice safe space that's welcoming to all"
The one thing that I think I'll comment on is the 'social engineer' bit - I have an anecdote. About a week ago on a separate discussion website called "Voat" I found a very relevant thread. To summarize: The users on that site were apparently up in arms over one particular user (named "HenryCorp") who had slipped in and silently worked his way up the social ladder, becoming the moderator of ten or so sub-boards.
When the members in this thread dug up more info on him, they found some of the following:
- He had come from a similar website called Reddit, where he had done the exact same thing, accumulating over one hundred moderating positions on separate boards.
- He had taken over the top mod position on the board "guns-are-cool", which was formerly for gun-discussion. Once there he immediately began to ban the most pro-2nd Amendment and pro-Gun rights members, while simultaneously inviting in people from boards that he knew were pro-Gun Control. By the end of his scheme, the goal and entire user-base of "guns-are-cool" had been swapped 180' from its original form - now designed to host gun-control discussion.
So regardless of whether Krice is 'right' or 'wrong' or which views are good, bad, or too sensitive, it's true that subversion is a real threat to forums on the net.
The relative obscurity of Rogue Temple versus Reddit or Voat can be either a boon or a curse as well. On the one hand, you don't get too many new users - and thus are less likely to be exposed to some manipulative HenryCorp-esque psychopath. You're also less likely to be targeted by these sorts of people. Whatever political or social opinions they want to spread, they will always have a smaller audience on a smaller or slower forum, and they know this.
On the other hand, someone who has gotten past those natural barriers, who has motivation and knowledge, can more quickly gain sway with a small regular userbase - and eventually rise to moderation.
If you look at small size or obscurity - if indeed Rogue Temple can be called "small" - as a boon, then the necessity of having a resident "protector troll" goes down. (And I wouldn't label any active users here as "troll" - I find that the incessant usage of the term as a playing card in arguments and a thought-terminating end to conversation has diluted any of its real meaning. More often than not, real trolls get banned right away, or leave on their own.)
What's truly scary is the commercialization of this sort of subversion - and its happening already. Most of these HenryCorp types are just very strange, opinionated people on their own personal crusades. But the fact is: they're effective, and they, as real, responsive people, have a greater influence on internet-users than 20-second ads or pop-up coupons. They can worm into a community and gain your trust like a movie trailer never will. And once they've done that, the rest is history. Thankfully, any forum with even moderate to low traffic will be safe from this crap because of the kind of expense in time and money that it takes for a person to do this.
(and you should all buy Dawn™ Wash & Toss Laundry pads :P)
The internet has been around for too many years and has touched too many people for anyone to feel confident and safe on it. I may be paranoid after the HenryCorp incident on that other website, but it's true. Most casual web usage is socially-oriented. People will only get better and better at social maneuvering, at manipulation - and they will only become more desensitized and detached from this sort of behavior - as they aren't doing it "in real life".
I see the trends in cynicism and jadedness on the web as being a natural reaction to what people sense as an increase in the force of manipulation online. But with time, things will swing back the other way, and then the vultures will get to work on the picking of our brains.
Everything is set up: technology breeds distraction and scatters your thoughts when used as a casual interface - bombarding you with colors and noise and stimulation. It promotes false anonymity, which in turn promotes lying, gossip, and scandal, which in turn serves as even greater distraction. Advertisements take the facetious state-of-mind bred by the web, and insert their own 'silly' thoughts: ("why not throw out a couple dollars for this product - just for fun"). Human interactive, possibly even AI advertising is the next step and I'm sure that it's in and around us all in places nobody expects.
Sorry for all the unrelated junk, but I wanted to add my anecdote and then couldn't stop.
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The reason forums about particular games, e.g. Dwarf Fortress, are more active and vital than this place is very simple: Those forums are actually talking about something. Most discussion here is about games that don't exist, development that doesn't actually happen, programming questions that mark the asker as someone who will never write an actual computer program in their life (I mean "do you use loops?" is, if not real, at least plausible as a thread starter here). The discussion of actually existing games is scattered, dealing often with games that no one plays or whose players are all somewhere else discussing it.
This place has maybe 15 active users and no rules. If you think Krice is what's keeping it from being co-opted, I think you've missed your guess.
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Those forums are actually talking about something. Most discussion here is about games that don't exist, development that doesn't actually happen
Only in your twisted mind it doesn't happen. Fuck it happens. Fuck you. The only problem here and every forum ever are people who attack other users. They are the people not talking about something, but someone. That's why when someone starts to say this and that user is bad influence in this prestigious forum you know the game is over. They act like they had the power to decide who can speak and they are often wondering why moderators don't ban these "toxic" users. I'm often wondering why they are like that. Is it just the great feeling of being an asshole? And not only that, often those people aren't even doing anything related to that forum. You aren't programming roguelikes, right? Not even games? It must be that, because otherwise you wouldn't say those things.
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Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin.
Okay, I rest my case in the face of such next-level rationalization. RLs are doing better than ever and that`s thanks to the unwashed masses being kept away by the true guardians, who are ever vigilant against the agents of roguelite subversion.
Well, humans` incredible ability to chisel reality using the most bizarre devices so as to fit it to their own narrative always fascinated me, however I did not join here to study some delusional constructs. Going back to my earlier analogy, these Japanese soldiers they found after 40 years on remote islands also thought there`s a war still going on - but there wasn`t. I`ll leave you to yours though, the trenches are way too deep and y`all seem quite comfortable in them, so why spoil the feeling with my "safe space" meddling?
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RLs are doing better than ever and
I think the situation may be even worse than what happened to adventure games. Well.. I guess not because some roguelikes are still under development. ADOM... but I hate how it became a commercial game. The only positive thing I remember from recent years is Nethack 3.6.0. They finally (after 10 years of waiting) replaced dead devteam members with new ones and who knows, maybe the next version is actually nice? Although it's difficult to bring anything new to Nethack without destroying the original game. Maybe they should just continue from Nethack II? Kind of freeze 3.6.0 and leave it to history as it is.
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Caves of Qud seem to be doing their whole revival in a much better way than ADOM, and one could mention other projects as well that belong to an interesting, contemporary wave of RLs … Hyperrogue, Sil, Hoplite, URR, Temple of Torment, Shadow of the Wyrm, Cogmind, IVAN and Gearhead seeing development again … The list goes on, and some of the fringe/action R-lites seem interesting in their own right. I'd say the genre is doing pretty well, although feel free to dismiss everything except Nethack and your own game ;)
As always,
Minotauros
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Hyperrogue, Sil, Hoplite, URR, Temple of Torment, Shadow of the Wyrm, Cogmind, IVAN and Gearhead seeing development again
I need to be impressed more than that. We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it. URR is a strange case. I think it's going to be more like strategy game rather than a RPG.
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Krice may be single handedly defending the Temple from Orwellian speech codes by acting as a caustic test for thin skin.
Okay, I rest my case in the face of such next-level rationalization.
That's one hell of a non sequitur. I think you missed "may". No reason to make leaps of logic if hypotheticals aren't your thing.
However, if nothing else the existence of rude folks with harsh language is a time tested canary for free speech online. RLs are doing better than ever even though Krice is here. The burden of proof is on you to prove harsh people are a detriment to the forum. I assert the null hypothesis to claims in the contrary: People who rage quit mightn't be the kind of folk you want to be around. Gods forbid they dev a roguelike and have to handle an even larger dose of harsher criticism from the world at large... There are plenty of popular forums where being crass is common so I'm not convinced a little foul language is the reason this site has low traffic.
Going back to my earlier analogy, these Japanese soldiers they found after 40 years on remote islands also thought there`s a war still going on - but there wasn`t.
If anyone is ignoring the reality of the situation it's you, and that could be a hazard to your health. There's mention of examples of Voat and reddit forums being subverted in this very thread. Recent experience has proven that games are certainly not off limits in the culture war.
E.S.R., Linus Torvalds (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907) and many other prominent people in Free (Libre) Open Source Software and STEM have been the target of Stasi style Zersetzung (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung) attacks for not towing the Politically Correct line. Take the case of the late Ian Mudock (http://truthvoice.com/2015/12/the-bizarre-story-of-ian-murdocks-death/) (Ian of Debian, founder of one of the most popular Linux distributions). This has familiar elements reminiscent of other attacks against activists, such as this Fresno man who was critical of police corruption (http://fresnopeoplesmedia.com/2016/01/2829/). This guy spreading non-politically correct messages predicted his death and was found stabbed to death in his burned down home. It's not just forums that get subverted, but everything from FLOSS projects to education (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGph7QHzmo8) and even police forces. Let's compare the claims like rational beings: Got any evidence that the subversive war isn't still on? You'd have to ignore that the subversion warned of by that ex-KGB agent all those years ago are seen playing out in today's culture at large. You'd have to ignore the recent ideological schism in the indie game community which boiled over even into the mainstream press, even spawning a Law and Order SVU episode.
I've been a target of some shady shit myself in the recent past. It's nice that you can proclaim "the war is over" since you don't have bullets whizzing past your head, or false accusations sent to your place of business for an article you wrote in the gaming press... Personally, I'll stay vigilant and keep spreading awareness in hopes others don't fall victim. Modern day subversion is a real threat. I merely warn of the methods that are employed. Thankfully this place isn't fully on the front lines of the culture war, but it could quickly become such. You need only examine the ideological slant of some prominent community members to see the possibility. Personally, I hope roguetemple remains neutral territory.
I warn against advocating the silencing of others, no matter how much offense you choose to take at mere words. People like me are a counter balance to the claim that rudeness is scaring people away. If rude people and caustic language weren't allowed here I wouldn't have signed up. If the canary is dead, I don't go into the mine.
We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it.
I wholly agree with this.
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Just take a look at DF or Cata forums, even though dedicated to single games, these places are buzzing. Here, not so much.
DF is like Minecraft of roguelikes - trendy and programmed by a rich douchebag.
Who banned me for no reason.
I still like the game though...
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We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it.
I wholly agree with this.
Is there even possibility to make a list of things that "was good in roguelikes" to go beyond that? "Deeper plot", "better mechanics" and all other "innovative ideas" is just blah blah. Actually making the game will come to making very specific choices where no one will be able to "take everything that good" because there is no universal "good" (well, except the utterly basic things like no bugs or readable font which are not worth mentioning). Trial and error and some measure of common sense seems to be the only way.
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@Skullcoder: Uh, I can 100% guarantee there's no chance of the forces of darkness developing an interest in discussion going on here. While there surely is plenty of the kind of thing you describe out there, the connections you're drawing here are a reach (e.g. a dude coopting a subreddit, probably just for the lulz, vs. activists dying under suspicious circumstances after encounters with authorities). Sounds like "targeted individuals" kind of talk.
Also worth drawing a strong distinction between what's going on in this forum and what's going on in the broader world of roguelike games. This place probably accounts for less than one tenth of one percent of the broader discussion, the vast majority of which goes on in irc channels, mailing lists, and forums devoted to particular, actual games. Further reason to doubt the supposed prophylactic value of rudeness.
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Hyperrogue, Sil, Hoplite, URR, Temple of Torment, Shadow of the Wyrm, Cogmind, IVAN and Gearhead seeing development again
I need to be impressed more than that. We need games that take everything that was good in roguelikes and go beyond it.
Yes, well, my point was just that there are a lot of interesting RLs in development, although just a few panning out on a huge scale right now. I think that's just normal, it doesn't seem to me that the scene is less dynamic today than in previous decades.1 In hindsight, there will always stand out a few canonical games, and I'm sure that will be true of our age, as well.
That said, I'd love to see a game like you describe. Ironically, a pseudo-RL might best fit the bill, scrapping traditional features to do something really new with procedural generation. I've long thought that a RL which randomly creates an immersive/open setting/story, would be something we haven't really seen yet.
URR is a strange case. I think it's going to be more like strategy game rather than a RPG.
URR seems to be on its own right path, wherever it may lead. It may end up as something more or less RL/playable/good/interesting, but in any case, it sure is a fascinating project.
As always,
Minotauros
1 Compared to rgrd archives, the temple even has its own assorted crazypersons (including the original Krice ;)). I remember that guy who left the forum in anger after aborting a discussion about rape in games by saying he had just been pulling our legs :o I wonder whatever became of his game – it seemed to be headed in a truly grandiose direction.
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I remember that guy who left the forum in anger after aborting a discussion about rape in games by saying he had just been pulling our legs :o I wonder whatever became of his game – it seemed to be headed in a truly grandiose direction.
He's the artist of my The Temple of Torment, his roguelike is on a hiatus currently.
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Oh, cool that he's still going strong. I only checked out TToT a little bit some time ago, but really liked what I saw back then.
As always,
Minotauros
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Oh, cool that he's still going strong. I only checked out TToT a little bit some time ago, but really liked what I saw back then.
As always,
Minotauros
TToT is going stronger than ever currently :).
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@Skullcoder: Uh, I can 100% guarantee there's no chance of the forces of darkness developing an interest in discussion going on here.
Yes, "the forces of darkness" are mythical. However censorious authoritarians are not.
While there surely is plenty of the kind of thing you describe out there, the connections you're drawing here are a reach
Those links are simply points of evidence that support a general claim of political correct authoritarian censorship. A forum topic about a completely unrelated topic is not the place to dump an overwhelming amount of evidence. The scientific minded individual would further research the claim given that these breadcrumbs exist, and fill out the graph themselves coming to a conclusion of their own afterwards. The ideologically minded simpleton is trained to ignore such data points and ignorantly reinforce their stance that anyone poking holes in their narrative is a conspiracy theorist (or use some other deflection device). To those that care, you'd do well to read the Gentleperson's Guide to Forum Spies, (https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm) and Traits of the disinformationist. (http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html)
If you grant that these cited events are not fiction then it adds credence to hypothesis. You've got your mind made up and are impervious to reason, so I'll not waste any more time debating the nature of reality with you.
Sounds like "targeted individuals" kind of talk.
You obviously don't investigate claims before forming your opinions: That's (http://www.wired.com/2008/07/the-microwave-s/) so ignorant (http://www.stopthecrime.net/docs/Fort%20Meade%20Bioeffects_of_Selected_Non-Lethal_Weapons.pdf) it hurts. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc-dH3Tl7oo) The terminology "targeted individual" is included in documentation and marketing of The Active Denial System (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJdl4cPVL0Y). Does the use of that term discredit all claims that such systems are in use by COINTELPRO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO) in your mind? Protip: There are active disinformation campaigns to make claims of such systems being used against activist appear "crazy".
This place probably accounts for less than one tenth of one percent of the broader discussion, the vast majority of which goes on in irc channels, mailing lists, and forums devoted to particular, actual games. Further reason to doubt the supposed prophylactic value of rudeness.
And also a reason to doubt the supposed value of silencing rude people, since there's no one here that needs a safe space devoid of any words they may choose to take offense from.
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Wow. I don't dispute that infiltration of political groups is a real thing. I don't even dispute that some subset of forces that reactionary politics labels "PC" are involved in such things. What I will tell you is that none of this has anything to do with this forum with 15 users. Obviously.
edit: Also, am I correctly understanding you as believing that so-called "gang stalking" is actually real?
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What I will tell you is that none of this has anything to do with this forum with 15 users. Obviously.
You brought up the term "targeted individual". You thought the comparison would paint me as a nutjob, but I thought I should educate you just in case you've been disinformed and aren't just willfully ignorant. This is a fourm and even small forums are frequently targeted. As the Gentleperson's Guide to Forum Spies notes, size doesn't matter. Subversion targets anywhere new information outlets exist with the potential for greater audience. There are numerous examples even on small Usenet communities about niche software. I'm not saying this forum is actively being subverted but the possibility exists. Since the roguelike[-lite] genre is becoming more mainstream and all larger gaming forums are under subversive attack even if just by advertising shills, this forum could easily become a target if it begins to grow beyond "15 users". Obviously.
Also, am I correctly understanding you as believing that so-called "gang stalking" is actually real?
I didn't say I did. Nice assumption though. No, "gang stalking" isn't real, but coordinated psychological operations by unofficial collaborators are part of the real COINTELPRO and Zersetzung tactics. Since you seem interested you should have read up about Zersetzung, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung) which I already linked to, but you seem exceedingly resistant to any information not matching your literally ignorant narrative.
The Stasi in Germany called that specific technique "street theater" when they used it and it was called this in the US/UK too until the more recent wave of disinformation re-branded the documented use of "unofficial collaborators and informants" under Zersetzung as "gang stalking" or "cause stalking" to more easily discredit those who complain about it. In the same way, "targeted individual" is used rather than "political dissident". The Internet is rife with false claims of such attack sometimes by legit crazy people, but the use of the tactic in question is a documented fact.
I guess next you'll say, "am I correct in understanding that you believe secret police will break into a home just to rearrange the furniture of a political dissident?", and my answer is "yes" because this is also an extensively documented practice in Zersetzung, and a complaint of those targeted by COINTELPRO. If they'll do that why wouldn't they have a few people in a crowd or neighborhood harass some political target in their effort to make them seem insane? The Germans deemed dissidents as insane and had them reeducated, or put them in a mental hospital, typically after a Zersetzung campaign to generate evidence of "mental derangement".
Street theater is just one method among many of organized psychological warfare, with over 5,000 documented cases revealed after the Berlin wall came down and the Soviet union collapsed. It's not far fetched to assume the method is still in use today, considering that the directed energy weapons that "targeted individuals" complain about are also real and have been in steady development and deployment since the 1970's. There are patents for the devices in the US Patent database.
For someone who apparently knows about this stuff you obviously have ridiculously flawed opinion of it, and I therefore question your ability to form opinions in regard to everything else you advocate for. You might want to try basing your opinions on evidence, history and experience rather than propaganda and disinformation.
I'm not your personal Google, so that's the last I'll say on the matter.
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This fits like a glove:
https://xkcd.com/386/ (https://xkcd.com/386/)
It's a bit sad when "hot" topics have nothing to do with the actual subject matter and more about people resorting to intellectual variants of name-calling.
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I ship mushroom patch and Skullcoder.
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Wow, ya, you're legit nuts, bro. "All larger gaming forums" are not "under subversive attack," even if you're silly enough to consider PR flacks for game companies "subversive."
It's a bit off the wall that your go-to argument for people who don't buy your claims about online "subversion" is to "educate" them about tactics of the East German secret police, the existence of real life ray guns similar to those described by paranoid schizophrenics, etc. I think you're going to have a hard time selling this bill of goods anywhere but the most paranoid alt-right outlets, but if you want to succeed with a more general audience, you're going to need a different approach. A good place to start would be offering a convincing narrative of the stakes involved in what you're talking about re: game forums, since at first glance they appear to be nil, and some analysis of how it could make sense for some malign actor to invest resources in view of those stakes.
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...Well, this thread went some out there places seemingly out of nowhere. ???
Try to keep things pertinent and cordial folks, if a topic runs dry then that's just how it goes.
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Wow, ya, you're legit nuts, bro. "All larger gaming forums" are not "under subversive attack," even if you're silly enough to consider PR flacks for game companies "subversive."
You're just ignorant. There are paid astroturf campaigns in all of the larger gaming forums. Moderators of several gaming forums have been called out numerous times for being paid shills. Hell, even on 4chan's /v/ where you'd least expect anyone to be able to subvert. As for the other stuff, there are videos of the portable devices being used by lowly detention officers, of course COINTELPRO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO) has more advanced secret tech at their disposal today. The US counter intelligence program is carried out by secret police (DHS / FBI) and they use the Stasi's Zersetzung tactics. The UK, France, Spain, esp. Germany all have similar programs in place to silence dissenters. It should be common knowledge to you, esp. after the Snowden Leaks -- Which also revealed the widespread use of JTRIG techniques (https://theintercept.com/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/) to subvert online forums.
You seem overly focused on painting others as "crazy" while remaining willfully ignorant even when presented with ample evidence. Any roguelike fan is going to be one who digs into the details. Do you actually play roguelikes? If so, what is your stance on the use of Info Lines in their UI? It seems you're here just to advocate for censorship and attempt to discredit anyone who advocates freedom from closed minded safe spaces...
I would like to point out that you're acting like the worse troll ever. At least Krice isn't insulting people by claiming they have mental health issues. I guess you should advocate for yourself to be banned now.
A good place to start would be offering a convincing narrative of the stakes involved in what you're talking about re: game forums, since at first glance they appear to be nil, and some analysis of how it could make sense for some malign actor to invest resources in view of those stakes.
Would you acknowledge there are vested interests who pay online shills to promote movies? The games industry is bigger than the movie industry.
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People interested in actual development discussion should move to reddit /roguelikedev.
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How did this place manage to become worse than reddit?
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How did this place manage to become worse than reddit?
Nothing is worse than reddit, so I don't know what you are talking about. However it's a mystery why this forum has users who are not making roguelikes at all, but spend all their time bashing people who are. I guess it's the humanity.
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Hmm, that's a course run then I reckon.
Devolving to antagonism isn't really germane, and neither fitting for this topic nor this place in general under most any topic as per the point of the Temple here being more about being upbeat, as there's lots to be pleased with historically and absolutely, and fostering a sense of camaraderie among folks that enjoy Roguelikes and such. There's always other means of personal conversations out there.