Temple of The Roguelike Forums
Announcements => Other Announcements => Topic started by: mariodonick on October 21, 2012, 04:19:25 PM
-
Edit: 2015/04/07: A new LambdaRogue game, called "Infiltration" is in development. This thread serves as some kind of development diary. First post related to LR:I is this one: http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=2752.msg41424#msg41424
-- old post --
I want to provide some updates about the future of LambdaRogue.
As you know, the next update will be 1.7. As most major updates, it will have a name attached, which, in this case, will be "End of an Era". What does this mean?
LambdaRogue 1.7 aka "End of an Era" will tie up some loose ends, both of the story and the game mechanics. This also includes a new questline (a very melancholic one, I can tell you.)
LambdaRogue 1.7 will also include the new 40x80 tileset currently done by Cecilia. (And the tiles that are already finished on my HDD look great!)
But End of an Era also means end of LambdaRogue development.
Yes, that's right, LR 1.7 will be the final update, the "definitive version" of the game. No more updates will come. What are the reasons for this?
LambdaRogue development started in 2006. I devoted more than 6 years to the growth of this game, and it has reached a state where everything I wanted to achieve with it has been done.
LambdaRogue is one of the most accessible roguelikes currently available, and still one of the few roguelikes that somehow manage to have a good balance between random game mechanics and fixed story. The story is complete, the game is stable, it is quite balanced -- it is simply finished.
Is this the end?
Well, I said "end of an era", but not "end of the world", and actually, I have many ideas for expanding the game world and its lore.
So, while LambdaRogue, as piece of software as it is, won't receive any more updates after 1.7, it does not mean that the brave people of Herbstwelt have to cope without their creator (i.e. me ;) ) from now on.
Instead, it's time for something new. For something that gives me all the time and space and scale for telling Herbstwelt's story once again.
Exciting times lay ahead of us. :)
-
An interesting occasion indeed.
...Does this portend a change in technology or even the medium employed going forward, or will your tools remain for the ventures to come?
-
It will use the same engine as LambdaRogue, and probably the interface will be very similar.
But ...
It won't be a roguelike.
-
Ah, suspense indeed. 8)
-
Not really suspense. ;)
It's just that for telling the story the way I want, a roguelike is not the ideal choice. CRPGs work better here, and so I will do one.
This means of course zero replayability, but I hope that I can take on the established story of LR and create a storydriven game which is truly good.
I can already say that the story takes place about 200 years after the events in LambdaRogue (the good ending).
-
Replayability is possible in cRPGs---just depends on how things pan out in the narrative, player and player build choices(doubly so if things get party-based), and so forth....usually comes down to a different sort versus the usual Roguelikes.
-
Yeah, but of course compared to a roguelike it is much less replayable.
-
Think of it this way: The roguelike replayability figures would look quite different indeed if held up to the same standard as most cRPGs---in that it counts replays AFTER beating the game a single time as opposed to just the chain of resets and restarts that can often result in players playing the game hundreds of times.....the first 1/4 to 1/2 only though.
So yeah, it is quite a sliding scale with all factors in play---your experience designing and implementing LambdaRogue in the way that you did should greatly help to drive things along a bit better than most.
-
I would like to say that games like WoW (I know I know, stay with me here) achieve replayability by having unique starting classes and races combined with a not STRICTLY linear game flow.
Just a thought.
-
Your WoW example is very good, because different starting points in the game world for the two planned factions are indeed planned.
(If you ask what factions: Men vs. Drekh'Nar. Of course.)
Edit: Disclaimer: The story will not be a WoW rip-off.
-
This means of course zero replayability
Different character classes usually add some replay value. I think a classic RPG can be replayable even with a static story. For some (most?) of the people the story is just something mandatory and battling, character development, collecting items etc. may be the main interest.
-
This means of course zero replayability
Different character classes usually add some replay value. I think a classic RPG can be replayable even with a static story. For some (most?) of the people the story is just something mandatory and battling, character development, collecting items etc. may be the main interest.
I second this. It also probably wouldn't be too hard to show the plot from different perspectives, based on player choices throughout the game. Take a look at Shiny's Sacrifice (one of the best games ever) - it has a static story yet you'll never get tired of playing the campaign because there's sooo much different choices you can make.
-
I know all your arguments very well ;)
Writing "zero" was really meant in comparison to the average roguelike, but Brian pointed out the differences in the definition of "replayability" already rather good.
I will soon write a blog posting, outlining the main elements of the new game, so it will be clear in which direction it will go in terms of game mechanics.
-
I've written some details about the new game: http://lambdarogue.net/dl-showentry.php?n=264
-
Sounds good, have you decided on whether active NPC's or party members(player created or coming with various decisions in the story) will be a new feature for this expanded direction or will it remain a solo adventure?
-
Sounds good, have you decided on whether active NPC's or party members(player created or coming with various decisions in the story) will be a new feature for this expanded direction or will it remain a solo adventure?
Actually I thought about this, because I like how this works in the old BioWare games.
From a technical point of view, it is not very difficult to implement. It's more difficult to flesh out a really working concept and include the party member interactions in the story.
With 3 starting factions I have 3 really different main protagonists, and other party members would need to work with all of them in a believable and logical way, in all situations -- they really need to enhance the story. If they are just "there" and help the player in gameplay, they are boring. They need to make sense in the overall concept.
So while this certainly offers very nice possibilities for interactions within a party (conflicts between party members, love stuff, ...) it makes my work not easier.
So -- maybe. But probably not.
-
well heck, I just downloaded Lambda Rogue to finally play it, and I guess I get to start on the definitive version :)
-
For the life of me, I can't get fullscreen to work properly.
I set the config to fullscreen. ?But when the game starts, the command prompt starts in full screen but when the actual game main menu comes on, it goes into a windowed mode.
Is sthere some other setting that I am missing?
-
LR site seems to be down, and when I last sent Mario an e-mail he seemed to be depressed about something (I don't remember what it was). What is going on? Is it just some real life stuff?
-
Hmm, it wasn't all that long ago that the site was up just fine even if nothing had been updated since the plan for the big 1.7 update and the RPG of a different style to come. I hope everything is OK...
-
After a long, long time my mind is free for a little bit LambdaRogue.
This has partly to do with the fact that I'm able to enjoy computer games again. Over the last two years, I still played, but only occassionally, and I was not able to real immerse myself into games. I simply had many other tasks, both in terms of job and of PhD thesis, and esp. writing the thesis is finished now (I "only" need to defend it some time in autumn). So I had some time to play games, and this made me think of LambdaRogue again.
I'm not quite sure how to continue, though. I obviously didn't have the money to keep the website up, but the game is still available at Google Code (https://code.google.com/p/lambdarogue/). I started to order a big tileset in the end of 2012, but only about 30% of it are done (the rest needs to wait for more money).
In fact I'm thinking of declaring LR 1.6.4 the final version of the original game, and creating a "fork" based on the game's coffeebreak mode -- i.e. some kind of "LambdaRogue: Core", where all story and all quests get removed and only the game itself is being worked on. Why? Because the story of the current game is finished, the game mechanics are optimized for that story and there is no reasonable way of improving either -- basically the game is finished, and new developments are only possible on a clean basis.
So in a LR:C, I would keep the basic game engine, but reduce the story to a classic one liner: "Go down and kill Eris. She's evil." I would re-create and/or re-arrange items, levels, monsters etc. (I would keep the graphics, though. The small tileset looks good and did cost a lot of money), and I would think about new abilities for player and monsters.
However ... This is quite risky, of course, because honestly so far not the game mechanics were setting LR apart from other roguelikes, but the story. It will be difficult to come up with interesting ideas not already found in other roguelikes. (And I have currently NO idea what has been going on in the roguelike scene. Which are the most interesting games at the moment, the most successful ones etc.)
We'll see. :)
-
Welcome back. 8)
Hmm....that is a tricky situation. I would say one of the first/easier things to do would be to get caught up on the Roguelike scene from where you last left off---blasting through the Roguebasin release header archives and the Release and Early Dev sections here. It is all but certain you would then come across some interesting features and projects to stoke the embers of inspiration---with a likely source perhaps being the recent goings on with Angband and some of the other major variants over in Rephial/Oook considering the earliest roots that LambdaRogue has going there and some core similarities. Angband itself is presently hurtling, though very slowly in some respects due to the nature of their teams and dev processes, towards some massive overhauls and fundamental changes---nothing to say you couldn't, for instance, get out ahead on some levels as you can likely operate with greater flexibility and fluidity.
There is no harm in availing of other good ideas found in other Roguelikes---as a good idea is a good idea and doubtless you would add your own twist into the mix as it is.
-
I simply had many other tasks, both in terms of job and of PhD thesis
I thought you died in Syria. Well, nothing major has happened in roguelike scene. If you are stuck with Lambda it could be a good idea to create another roguelike. When I started another roguelike project (Teemu) it was the best idea I've had for a long time, especially when I still don't know when Kaduria is going to be ready.
-
We'll see. :)
You need to start a dev blog and keep us informed.
-
I think this thread will keep as some kind of dev blog. After I've deleted the old LR website/blog, I don't want to start a new one.
Yesterday I finished (i.e. printed and handed-in to the university) my thesis. This means I finally have some "mental space" free for other tasks. I started to make a copy of the source code where I'm now removing all the story stuff, to have the game's core to start to work with.
-
Congrats on completing the thesis! :)
-
Congrats on completing the thesis! :)
Seconding this (I'm writing my own thesis and submitting it by the end of next year, so I know how much work goes into it)
-
Thank you, @Getter77 and Zireal,
and good luck on your own thesis! At some point you will have the feeling that it's done and the time is right to stop writing and improving. Although nothing is perfect and theoretically could be improved infinitely, suddenly a point will be reached when it is done and "feels" right.
Much like programming a roguelike, by the way. :D
-
and good luck on your own thesis! At some point you will have the feeling that it's done and the time is right to stop writing and improving. Although nothing is perfect and theoretically could be improved infinitely, suddenly a point will be reached when it is done and "feels" right.
Much like programming a roguelike, by the way. :D
Not really. In programming you usually run some tests at that point and it turns out that you were wrong - totally wrong :).
-
and good luck on your own thesis! At some point you will have the feeling that it's done and the time is right to stop writing and improving. Although nothing is perfect and theoretically could be improved infinitely, suddenly a point will be reached when it is done and "feels" right.
Much like programming a roguelike, by the way. :D
Not really. In programming you usually run some tests at that point and it turns out that you were wrong - totally wrong :)
Whilst writing a thesis there are no tests to prove it – you just have to trust Murphy's law to know that you are, in fact, invariably wrong ::)
Anyway, congrats on the thesis, Mario, welcome back, good luck forward with Lambda, and … any comments regarding this (http://forums.roguetemple.com/index.php?topic=3565.0)?
As always,
Minotauros
-
and good luck on your own thesis! At some point you will have the feeling that it's done and the time is right to stop writing and improving. Although nothing is perfect and theoretically could be improved infinitely, suddenly a point will be reached when it is done and "feels" right.
Much like programming a roguelike, by the way. :D
Not really. In programming you usually run some tests at that point and it turns out that you were wrong - totally wrong :).
Well, hopefully the tests you run will show you you're NOT totally wrong, otherwise no piece of software (no roguelike) would ever be in a playable, somewhat stable state ;)
The final phases of my thesis were similar, incl. versions I labelled alpha, beta and release candidate, and tests included several iterations of writing, reading and improving, until I came to a state where I could say "okay, let's stop it now."
-
My thesis is now (since last week Friday) handed in, i.e. finished, after 4 long years. Now I'm waiting for a letter that states that the "Promotionsverfahren" (a word hard to translate: It means the buerocratic aspects of the process leading to the PhD) is opened. Meanwhile, I'm doing some smaller usability studies and teaching German :)
So -- LambdaRogue, here I come :D
-
I started to make a copy of the source code where I'm now removing all the story stuff, to have the game's core to start to work with.
So it will be more sandbox-style hacking or with another story?
-
I started to make a copy of the source code where I'm now removing all the story stuff, to have the game's core to start to work with.
So it will be more sandbox-style hacking or with another story?
After a long time, I can answer this question.
LR 1.7 ("Infiltration") will focus on game mechanics, not so much on story, as LR 1.6.4 ("The Book of Stars") did. Of course there WILL be a basic plot (otherwise it would not be my game), but it will be much more straightforward, and quests will not be required to win the game. Basically, it will be like the coffeebreak mode from LR 1.6.4 with a short intro, 2 cutscenes and the end sequence, but in-between it's pure dungeon crawling.
LR:I is set some hundred years before LR:TBoS -- during the war between men and Drekh'Nar. The player can choose between human and Drekh'Nar. As a human, the player has to infiltrate a Drekh'Nar basis to obtain information, as a Drekh'Nar, the player has to prevent the humans infiltrating.
-
After a long time, I can answer this question.
My best guess is that you were captured in Syria and escaped by building a ironman suit. But you can't tell about that stuff, I know.
-
After a long time, I can answer this question.
My best guess is that you were captured in Syria and escaped by building a ironman suit. But you can't tell about that stuff, I know.
LOL no.
Until January I was preparing for defending my PhD, which I did on 28th. I'm also doing lots of flight simulation stuff.
-
So you really are now Doctor Mario.
-
So, again more than a month has passed. I got married, and I moved to another town. Most things have settled, though.
For LR:I, I have stripped the game engine from the 1.6.x contents and am now in the process of generalizing several parts, so I can fill it with new content soon. However, I will also need some new mechanics which fit the new theme, such as a "loudness factor" of the dungeon. The game's called "Infiltration", so infiltrating should be modelled in a nice way, and different dungeon environments, items etc. should have a different influence on player's loudness. There will also be some areas where its quite dark, and the player has to rely on his ears to "see" what's going on.
-
Congrats on the marriage and move! 8)
-
Congrats on the marriage and move! 8)
Thanks a lot, Brian! :)
-
That's great, but.. not always good news for roguelike development. Remember what happened to Mr. Biskup when he got his doctorate and married. He stopped developing ADOM for years and only returned when it was possible to squeeze money out of it. He must have explained it to his wife with whiny Eric Cartman voice: "But my dear Bertha, it's possible now to make money from ADOM, can't I continue developing it, my princess? Please?"
-
That's great, but.. not always good news for roguelike development. Remember what happened to Mr. Biskup when he got his doctorate and married. He stopped developing ADOM for years and only returned when it was possible to squeeze money out of it. He must have explained it to his wife with whiny Eric Cartman voice: "But my dear Bertha, it's possible now to make money from ADOM, can't I continue developing it, my princess? Please?"
Well, this can't happen for me. In fact, my wife pushes me to continue LR development, when I don't like to work on it.