Author Topic: Where to begin  (Read 27025 times)

ModernLife

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Where to begin
« on: May 15, 2010, 05:41:18 PM »
So I am very new to Roguelike games.  Recently picked up Rogue Touch on my phone and have been hooked ever since.

I want to start playing roguelikes on copmuter but there are so many out there and there seems to be a huge learning curve for it all.

where does one begin? I feel lost in all this stuff.  What game should one try first what does one need to know before playing the game how does one figure it all out?

Thanks!

mariodonick

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2010, 06:31:51 PM »
Well. You should simply try some games and stick with the one(s) that seem most interesting and easy to get in. Then you'll soon know if you prefer complex and deep roguelikes or shorter games.

I think most players today play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, and it's indeed a very good game, with a nice graphical version, too.

I also consider Teemu to be a good start for new players -- it's not that easy to survive in the beginning, but with enough coconuts it should be okay ;) Teemu has also a refreshing, somehow ironic setting.

And of course I'd lie if I wouldn't want to suggest to try LambdaRogue: The Book of Stars. It has a fantasy setting, but with it's own approach on many not-so-obvious things, its interface is simple, the start rather easy, but if you don't want any story in your roguelike, it's probably not for you. ;)
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

getter77

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2010, 06:46:24 PM »
Being you have a phone, I instincivetly recommend Cavern, Sword of Fargoal, and 100 Rogues.

I would also add DoomRL and Triangle Wizard to Mario's suggestions.  DoomRL will especially be nice when the Tiles come out and the game is then largely "complete".

You might also quite like Dungeonmans and Spelunky.
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Darren Grey

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2010, 03:03:32 PM »
I'd also suggest ADOM if you want something with the feel of a tradition RPG - it has lots of NPCs and quests and towns and so on, but with all the traditional random dungeons and items common to roguelikes.  You may also consider some commercial roguelikes like Shiren the Wanderer.

There's lots of roguelikes to cater for all sorts of playstyles.  It depends a lot on your own tastes.

Joshua Day

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2010, 06:41:58 PM »
Brogue is very inviting and easy to get into.  Pender's just released a new version a week ago, so it's shiny and up-to-date.  The focus of his design is on simplicity of elements, so the game seldom feels overwhelming -- the way some of the major roguelikes do -- and it cleaves tight to the model of Rogue itself.  The download page (http://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/home) documents almost everything in the game, so you can search when you come across something new.

I second the Teemu suggestion; its relatively short narrative means that a new player, with enough dedication, should be able to win the game before becoming an old player.

Z

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 03:12:20 PM »
I think DoomRL is a very good and light game to start with, and when you want to move to heavier ones, play Dungeon Crawl SS, which is one of the best and should not be too hard to pick up. ADOM is very good, but it's quite hard to set it up so that it plays in the best possible way and you don't run into any bugs (it's not that much work, but I think such  things could be scary for unexperienced beginners). Another choice of a light game for the start is Spelunky (but that is if you come from a platformer blackground and prefer to start with a hybrid type, not a pure roguelike).

getter77

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 08:18:56 PM »
Another good and recently updated option: POWDER.
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Slash

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 02:51:34 PM »
Other two good options (my own roguelikes, of course): CastlevaniaRL and DrashRL, at http://slashie.net

AmnEn

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2010, 09:47:08 PM »
There's no easy way into the realm of roguelikes. Most people will advice you to download one of the easier roguelikes to help you start out but I'd advice against that. Pick the one that's most intriguing to you. When you start out you need to keep some concepts in your mind. These are based on my personal misconceptions when I started out and from having tried to introduce others to the genre, observing their progress. Consider this some "conversion" guideline for folks switching over from other genres.

Realize that you won't beat the game anytime soon.
This is something we're used to from basically every single game genre out there. With a bit of effort and determination you can win them in no time. There's never a task that's insurmountable. Sure, there's some difficulty but you can just keep on battering your head against it and they'll go away. Roguelikes on the other hand aren't like that. You will get yourself into situations which you just can't beat with what you have at that time. While in every other game, persistence is key, in roguelikes Cowardice is survival. It teaches us a basic law of human nature: Heroes die.
Once you stop trying to be a hero, you will experience a huge spike in survivability. Still, even if you're fairly experienced one day, you probably still won't have beaten your favorite roguelike. Don't play to win, play to have fun. That's actually one of the hardest things to understand when starting out with roguelikes.

Understand that you don't need to understand.
You know what caused me great frustration when I started out? Thinking I had to memorize all those absurd key combinations to be able to play these games. After all in every other game, knowing the controls is important for your survival. Roguelikes love showering their players with sometimes well over 100 keys to memorize. Trying to think off them all when you start off will only result in you trying to fiddle with the controls as you keep on forgetting the basic stuff.
So here's my second hint about roguelikes:
Ignore everything (at first). Ignore stats. Ignore races and classes. You really don't need to know about those things yet. You only need to know how to move your character. In most roguelikes, you also attack by bumping into enemies. So, really, that's all you need at the beginning. Use that and play, you'll be surprised by how far you'll get with just that. From that point on, learn on demand. Look up things as they come up. Some enemy dropped a bunch of scrolls? Look up how to pick them up. You need to know how to read? Look it up. The key is to only learn what you really need. Everything else is superflous fluff until the time you need it.
So with some common conceptions and the most basic controls, you'll find yourself exploring dungeons. Chances are if you're feeling lost and overwhelmed, it's because you're trying to grasp too much at once. I know I had a lot of trouble dealing with that, partly because I approached roguelikes too arrogantly.

Most roguelikes follow a pretty similiar ruleset.
That's partly because most of them are "just" variants of another roguelike game. As silly as it may sound, if you're getting stuck in one roguelike, go and play another for a couple of days. You'll learn a great new things with a fresh perspective without getting frustrated with the same old problem. Still, because games are so vastly similiar, something you've learned in roguelike b can very well be the solution to a problem in roguelike a.
Same for conventions and expectations:
Classes and races, pick the one you like and then just play. For the beginning its best to stick with usual race/class conceptions. You know the book stuff where elves are always nimble and magical creatures while orcs are dumb but strong. You hooked up an elven rogue? Don't go berserking. You play a hideous troll? Don't try charming your fellows. Strength is about damage and Intelligence is about spells. And finding a sword +2 is prolly a good thing. It's these simple truths of every gamegenre that also apply to rogulikes. Very few try to break out of this cycle and those are mostly obscure rogulikes. While the beautiful thing about roguelikes is that you probably can play an orc seductress and have great success with it, it's hard to venture outside conventions when you start out.

Don't play prototypes
People will really hit me for saying this, but prototypes are for experienced players only. They often introduce new elements into the roguelike genre. Why would you want that when you're still struggling with the basics? You can't practice for some Formula One Racing Sim by playing Destruction Derby or Carmageddon. They are all racing games but they're still from another planet. Prototypes are often in a very early state of development too. Chances are there isn't a lot of content and it might be grossly unbalanced. Don't get me wrong, prototypes are great gaming experiences from time to time, we also need more games to venture away from the "variant" deal. They're just not a good choice when you're starting out. Keep them for when you can truely enjoy them.

Z

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2010, 08:23:14 PM »
I agree against prototypes (and also on other things from AmnEn's post), the games I have suggested had passed the test of time. I also don't like that some guys suggested their own roguelikes. It's hard to judge your own creation, especially to judge how simple it is, and even if your roguelike was especially aimed at introducing new players into genre, and does it very well, it would be better if some independent reviewer suggested it :)

mariodonick

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2010, 09:11:21 PM »
Quote
even if your roguelike was especially aimed at introducing new players into genre, and does it very well, it would be better if some independent reviewer suggested it

Well, while you are correct regarding at least from an ethical point of view, I suggested my own game not only for the sake of advertisment, but because some players told me via mail or blog comment that it was easy to get into, because it's not overly complex and the interface is easier than in the big ones.

Quote
It's hard to judge your own creation, especially to judge how simple it is

So my judgement is based on these (few and not representative, of course) player opinions, not on my own. Nobody did an empirical Human Computer Interaction study or gameplay analysis, though ;)


And for the games Slash mentioned I can at least tell from my experience that CastlevaniaRA is a very good, very easy-to-get-into, very beautiful game that gets far too less attention.
https://mariodonick.itch.io/lambdarogue-the-book-of-stars
-- LR: The Book of Stars graphical roguelike RPG

getter77

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2010, 11:48:49 PM »
very good, very easy-to-get-into, very beautiful game that gets far too less attention.

This also reminds me to suggest MageGuild, as the "puzzle" nature of it should be well suited to ease in newcomers.  Also, because it is in the same boat visibility wise---hopefully this next big version they've got cooking will change that.
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Vanguard

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 11:55:43 AM »
This also reminds me to suggest MageGuild, as the "puzzle" nature of it should be well suited to ease in newcomers.  Also, because it is in the same boat visibility wise---hopefully this next big version they've got cooking will change that.

This is my recommendation as well.  Mage Guild is easy to get into, but still has depth.

ModernLife

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2010, 11:22:38 PM »
Hey,

Thanks everyone for all of te advice I am slowly getting more and more into this type of game.  Thank you all very much these forums are amazing.

getter77

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Re: Where to begin
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2010, 01:06:00 AM »
You are quite welcome ModernLife----enjoy the variety out there!   8)
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